rough riding on East coast when 225's did 140mph in mid 90's

[tbtc]

On Blackberry, you just open the map and select 'My Location'

I'd be interested in what technology the OP had to measure speeds "in the mid '90s"

 

[cambsy]

North of Newcastle would say the highest speeds were Berwick-Newcastle,Christon Bank and Beal LC area one could get a lick on,a 225 was logged in railway magazine doing 133mph on one of the flyers between Newcastle and Berwick,i did it once in 75mins logged,and i got good 135mph between York-Doncaster,it was built for 140mph on the Selby Diversion,got 130mph odd between Grantham and Newark near Claypole LC,northbound,and though not 140mph the 225 used to fly between London-Stevenage,faster than today,hammering the curves,today u can get bout 128mph but then governor kicks in,

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yet we still have a distinct lack of actual evidence.

 

[cambsy]

look in old Railway Magazine Practice and Performance logs and they allude to normal services on 225 going rather above 125 mph,I'm sure someone has a log of 225 doing 135-140 mph,shame i lost mine,they were built for it,and maybe if BR had wanted to they could easily have done 140 mph in service,was just signalling,in those days trains weren't logged like today and the 225 were un governed,and u could also tell when u were flying at above 130 mph,i travelled a lot on them then and one just got a sense when the driver was pushing on because was late,don't forget that the HST when first built would do 130 mph plus before governor was fitted,and Deltics were clocked at 125mph,i had one on Virgin service down Shap doing 116mph behind D9000,the speedo was reading under,it went Birmingham to Glasgow on 06.55 in morning on a Friday and then back from Edinburgh on the Saturday about 9am,with 7 or 8 coaches,it was certification run for 100mph on mainline,what I'm saying is that back then drivers used to speed to a degree before technology put a stop to it,

 

[DaveNewcastle]

North of Newcastle would say the highest speeds were Berwick-Newcastle,Christon Bank and Beal LC area one could get a lick on,a 225 was logged in railway magazine doing 133mph on one of the flyers between Newcastle and Berwick,i did it once in 75mins logged, . . . .

That's an average speed of 54mph.

EC's timetabled services currently cover that in 45mins.

Speaking as a regular ECML traveller for forty years, I'll agree that there were occasional runs in service which maxed over 125 at times, rarely, if ever, encountered today, but I do suspect that there's a little selective memory at work here!

 

[cambsy]

i meant Newcastle to Edinburgh in 75 mins and quite likely less,they hammered the curves in those days,the ride was exciting to say the least,hope someone has got log of 135-140mph on 225 on service train

 

[OxtedL]

Even at 75 minutes we're talking no more than 100mph average... are you sure you have done all your maths right?

 

[YorkshireBear]

You cant just go up to 140mph on track that isnt built for it..... surely your making this up?

 

[cambsy]

well the HST's went up to 140mph when new on Great Western Mainline and on East Coast,the track might not have 140 mph permitted speed but it can take it by a few trains,on straight enough track,I'm not lying,and the people at Railway Performance Society would back me up,i had logs but lost them over time,u won't get the speeds today

 

[Ivo]

There are records of HSTs running as high as 148mph but such a feat has only ever been under controlled and often experimental circumstances. Although some services do occasionally exceed the 125 limit, with the exception of the above and also HS1 I'm not aware of anything having ever gone beyond about 130?

 

[cambsy]

the HST when new got up to 136mph in service between Paddington and Bath,saw it in Railway Magazine,the 225 got up to near if not 140mph in service schedule trains,they were after all,built for it,if i had logs i would put them on here,on the Darlington-York stretch the speeds were Northallerton-York or vv,it got long straight stretches to do 140mph

 

[jon0844]

It's annoying that the ECML has stretches with signalling that could allow 140mph running, but it's not considered safe - as we now need in-cab signalling.

Fine for all new trains/lines, but why can't a driver that signs that train/route be able to manage with the flashing green aspect?

Is it really unsafe? Would the unions be against it? Is it banned under some European law?

 

[ainsworth74]

It's annoying that the ECML has stretches with signalling that could allow 140mph running, but it's not considered safe - as we now need in-cab signalling.

It isn't that it has become unsafe as the flashing aspect was added to test to see if it was safe in the first place to do it!

As for obstacles I seem to recall the main issue was with sighting the signal especially in poor weather conditions. Basically there is a chance that the driver might not be able to tell what the aspect actually is if there only getting a short period of time to identify the signal (say in fog).

You also have the possibly bigger issue of pathing 140mph trains in amongst freight and commuter services. The ECML is a lot busier now than it was back in the late 80s when they were doing this testing the first time round. I don't see how you can get any meaningful 140mph running on the ECML without cutting out paths elsewhere.

 

[RichW1]

There were indeed HST's doing 135mph on the Great western when new and several drivers back then had an unofficial (obviously) 140mph club with them. Rare they did that but 135mph was done many a time in the 80's and early 90's.

I cannot claim to have been on one without evidence of my particular journey but I can tell you I was on a London Kings Cross - Edinburgh train in 1990....it was an HST and covered the 188miles to York in 1hr40 minutes! It was breaking hard around bends and accelerating faster than today's HST's. It may have been 1hr41 to the moment we stopped dead in York station.

I know 135mph was broken many times on the ECML in the 80's and early 90's. There was a retired driver at York who told me that they run a lot slower today than they used to when they were driving. The golden era for Intercity speeds was in the late 70's through to the early 1990's.

 

[jon0844]

I guess another factor is that drivers are presumably made to save fuel now, and monitored accordingly, so heavy braking and acceleration is probably a real no no now regardless of more obvious safety or pathing issues.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The attached report might be of interest. It discusses the last few months of the electrification of the ECML in 1991/2 and the initial tests of the equipment, infrastructure and rolling stock (including high speed testing).

View attachment BRB EastCoastElectrification Report 021992.pdf

I was particularly amused by the writing style, it includes many hard facts but also the names of individuals working on the project and a couple of residents, one of whom is expected to continue making complaints about 'the railway' and the challenges with BT engineerng and the intermittent electrical demands of the Lynemouth Aluminium smelter!

 

[rail-britain]

The attached report might be of interest. It discusses the last few months of the electrification of the ECML in 1991/2 and the initial tests of the equipment, infrastructure and rolling stock (including high speed testing).

This was the period on which I worked for InterCity East Coast
I really liked the remarks about turn around times at Waverley and the
oversight about crew availability
I remember this very well, quite often staff members walking in expecting to be working shortly, but asked if they could take the train out that was already waiting!

I got bumped from Senior Conductor to CATS duties for several months as HST reliability fell through the floor
However, this was overtaken by cancellation of IC225 services, for all manner of problems and issues, also covered by this report

I also remember the grey mats being fitted to the tip-up tables on the Mark 4 coaches, had forgotten about that!

As for the resident at Benton, come on!

Finally, Glasgow Central was modified for IC225, platforms 2, 9, and 10
I always wondered why a Class 91 was never seen in platform 1

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I also remember the grey mats being fitted to the tip-up tables on the Mark 4 coaches, had forgotten about that!

I'm glad you enjoyed reading it as much as I did. I too had forgotten the grey rubbery table mats, but it all comes back now!

 

[stanley T]

I never understood why trial ATP was installed on the GWML, where HSTs would not exceed 125mph, and (of all pointless places) the Chiltern line - while if installed on the appropriate stretches of the ECML 140mph would have been safely possible. Since 225 sets were lengthened to 10 coaches doubt class 91s would have the reserve power today anyway.

I remember rough riding on Mk4s when they came in. As I recall, BREL were supposed to build a 140mph bogie, it wasn't ready in time, and SIG bogies were bought which did not properly fit the UK loading gauge until they were modified. Even today I think that Mk3 bogies ride better.

 

[rail-britain]

Since 225 sets were lengthened to 10 coaches doubt class 91s would have the reserve power today anyway

The Class 91 was geared for 140mph operation, so adding additional coaches was not an issue when it was clear 140mph was no longer going to take place

BREL were supposed to build a 140mph bogie, it wasn't ready in time

The BREL version T4 was ready and had been tested on various coaches (commencing with 99519) and ended with network testing under Mark 3A TSO 12140, along with two other versions of the same bogie
Newly introduced competition rules meant the components were not awarded to BREL, which at the time everyone thought was a done deal
The SIG bogie hadn't even been tested in the UK on the national network, only on limited testing
Ironically, the T4 bogie ended up under the Mark 3B DVT

 

[IanXC]

I've 'used the facilities' on a Pendolino heading down the Trent Valley at 125mph, it was none too pleasant hock:

Was I glad to find a non-accessible toilet on a Pendolino in the Lake District. Lucky it wasn't a Super Voyager services I guess!!!!

 

[E&W Lucas]

the 225 used to fly between London-Stevenage,faster than today,hammering the curves,today u can get bout 128mph but then governor kicks in,

Total and complete B******t

Can I suggest that unsubstantiated allegations of professional misconduct, in this case of routine speeding by a margin of 10 - 15 mph, are removed as a matter of course?

Keep it in the playground; if you publish it online, there can be consequences; for you, and for the site owners.

 

[jon0844]

Why? No service was mentioned specifically?

If you claim such claims are wrong because no driver has EVER gone beyond the limits, surely there's no problem anyway?

 

[Barrett M95]

While I agree that there is a bit of a farmyard smell around some of these claims, I can't see there being any consequences for the train crews used back then or the member of this site. I could claim I was in a pacer 20 years ago doing 100mph - it is of course utter b*llox but nobody really cares.

 

[jon0844]

But you can't have people simply saying that everyone is lying because they can't back up their post with documentary, and independently verified, evidence.

I've been on trains exceeding speed limits, and never given exact details to get a driver in trouble; but it doesn't mean it didn't, or doesn't, happen.

No matter how much respect I have for drivers (and staff in general), nobody is going to convince me that there aren't some who break the rules, or aren't actually good at their job. Don't tell me that anyone working in the industry doesn't know this to be true, and quite likely knows people who aren't up to the grade.

Some drivers still stop short at Hatfield platform 3, when they know they've got a 3 or 4-car train. They stop where they can still see the paint on the platform (a poor attempt was made to remove it), even though they're required to stop at the far end by the S-stop. I am sure they could be punished, but they do it for the benefit of passengers. I am sure the driver on my GNER train doing 140mph when we were over 30 minutes down from an earlier delay, and it was Sunday night around 10pm, did so knowing it was safe to do - but knowing management may not agree.

You can say s/he shouldn't have done it, but not that it didn't happen because I can't prove it. If we all have to prove everything we say, forums wouldn't exist for long.

 

[phil8715]

I've found the 225's to be smooth I might have had the odd wheel flat but nothing really serious.


Sent from my GT-P1010 using Tapatalk

 

[Darandio]

But you can't have people simply saying that everyone is lying because they can't back up their post with documentary, and independently verified, evidence.

I think the main issues were in the original post, with claims of speeding between Newcastle and Edinburgh, verified only by mileposts and stations. The problem people have with that is they know the geography, layout and short speed limits in that area, it's potentially very dangerous and therefore some doubt it.

I am sure the driver on my GNER train doing 140mph when we were over 30 minutes down from an earlier delay, and it was Sunday night around 10pm, did so knowing it was safe to do - but knowing management may not agree.

I cannot really buy that, what authority would a driver have to assume it is safe to do so? Signal spacing and aspects are the same as at 5pm in the evening, so it wouldn't be any safer.

 

[jon0844]

Don't buy it then. It happened though and I had it showing on GPS, which had recorded speeds accurately throughout the journey. GPS can spike for very short periods of time, but a train doesn't accelerate to 140, brake, accelerate, brake - so it's very easy to get a consistent measurement over some distance.

It wasn't doing 140mph the whole way!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Please note which post i highlighted earlier. It referred to speeding today.128 in an area where the linespeed is 115.

Those making such posts ate accusing the TOCs of failing to operate a safe service. That could lead to consequences for those making the allegations, or for the site owners.

 

[tbtc]

No service was mentioned specifically?

In fact very little was specifically mentioned, though it was certainly suggested that you could use mileposts to prove some incredible speeds north of Newcastle fifteen years ago... the whole thing doesn't add up to me (especially as the 125 mph sections north of Newcastle are very short and for good reason.