rough riding on East coast when 225's did 140mph in mid 90's

[SouthStand]

I worked on InterCity East Coast when the Class 91 and Mark 4 coaches were new
As above, there was no change in speed limit compared to the HST, limited to 125mph

There was a known problem with the speedo in the Mark 4 DVT, but it was found to underread not overread so running slower than 125mph is more likely
This was often reported a few days after first diagnosed and then repaired overnight

It is possible that inaccurate average speeds are recorded, I used to get this quite often when working these out from viewing mile post markers
I noted a HST at 135mph between Newcastle and York, when travelling back passenger
However the following mile was 126mph, suggesting I misread the *** 3/4 marker
When I got back to Edinburgh I obtained copies of the timing and confirmed the HST never exceeded 128mph

If the speedo under reads then you would be more likely to exceed the speed limit not less likely.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

oh come on, speeding used to be fairly commonplace. I've had a 47 at 104mph and 136mph on a 91 one memorable day after sitting for an over an hour as the fire brigade put out (iirc) 91031 which had cooked up on test.

 

[tbtc]

wasn't special train or record attempt,was back in mid 90's when there was so much technology to stop speeding,just looking at timings train did once could tell when they were hammering it,and they certainly did,especially the flyers,and 135-140mph was quite common then,I'm not lying and logs exist of those sort of speeds on normal service trains

Fairly easy to see any over-speeding nowadays, a lot of people carry iPhones with GPS.

Not sure how you'd easily prove GPS timings back in the mid '90s though, especially with the poor reception in rural areas that you got back then.

The 125mph sections north of Newcastle are so short that I doubt you could get to 140 and back on them...

 

[rail-britain]

Working for IC East Coast in 1996ish, my regular train (when I was still a steward) was the 0710 Leeds Aberdeen, working as far as Haymarket. Had an Edinburgh man (on the end of his shift) driving it, and the speeds being done were hideous. There were no data recorders to monitor the speed and the kitchen was a cross between a fairground funhouse and a greek plate smasher's wedding

Looks like our paths may have crossed a few times then, although the Leeds - Aberdeen was rather early for me to be on
I remember standing in the buffet once and everything crashed from one side of the buffet to the other, passengers were holding on to the rails along the windows!
I made my way back along to the TGS and other passengers were none to pleased
Spoke to the driver who apologised and realised the speedo was clearly incorrect, from that point onwards he was reading it less 20mph

 

[SteamPower]

I think that's why all new trains come with GPS-shielded window coatings.

I often wondered why my GPS signal would work on a HST but not a Meridian over the same piece of track

 

[jon0844]

My personal favourite was a 313 semi-fast that was pushed on the down fast due to a problem ont he slow, going along the ECML and the driver clearly going for it! 75mph max? Yeah, right!!

I didn't have GPS that time, but I'd stake my life on it having got to around 90 at least. It was a rare treat as 1) they rarely go on the fast lines at all and 2) they usually operate all station stops, so can't get up to and maintain speed - so even 75 is near impossible.

I often wondered why my GPS signal would work on a HST but not a Meridian over the same piece of track

I think it's worth pointing out that the film on the windows is to reflect heat, and a side-effect is filtering out mobile/GPS signals.

 

[rail-britain]

If the speedo under reads then you would be more likely to exceed the speed limit not less likely

I have always understood this to mean the displayed speed is lower than the actual speed and hence why so many such reports occur although it was a generic term for any speedo showing an incorrect speed
An example as HST where the speedo needle stopped at 60mph and didn't move any further, reported as under reading, resulting in the HST power car being removed at Edinburgh
However equally a Mark 4 DVT where the speedo was showing 125mph but the train was losing time northbound, confirmed that the actual speed was much lower also reported as under reading

Even my own car under reads, the speedo shows 30mph but I have confirmed the actual speed is 35mph

 

[jon0844]

Even my own car under reads, the speedo shows 30mph but I have confirmed the actual speed is 35mph

Cars cannot under read by law, so I suggest you get it fixed as a matter of urgency. What make is it and how old is it?

There's a tolerance one way, but not the other, so all car makers will offset the speedo to make sure. If you're seeing 35mph, chances are you're doing between 30-32mph.

Cars can NEVER show a speed of 30 when you're doing 35 unless it's badly at fault.. Given you're running the risk of being done for speeding, I'd really go and get it fixed first thing tomorrow!

 

[rail-britain]

Cars cannot under read by law, so I suggest you get it fixed as a matter of urgency. What make is it and how old is it?

Yes they can and quite legally as the Vehicle Construction Act no longer applies to this as I found out when I first presented the vehicle and issue to VOSA
It is a 2005MY VX Vectra and was examined by VOSA at my request in 2006, after which a calibration certificate was issued (valid for 12 months)
The speedometer is set from electronic settings based on the wheel and tyre size
The calibration was based on speeds of 30, 40, and 70mph

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Speedos can over-read (i.e. show 70 when at 65), but, by law, they cannot under-read (i.e. show 65 when at 70).

 

[rail-britain]

Speedos can over-read (i.e. show 70 when at 65), but, by law, they cannot under-read (i.e. show 65 when at 70).

Happens all the time on trains, and there is no law preventing it, the driver simply reports it and the train is taken out of service at the next available opportunity
Procedures apply when over reading
As above, been on a HST when this happened and the driver was aware of it very early on (needle stuck at maximum of 60mph)
He was given permission to proceed

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Happens all the time on trains, and there is no law preventing it, the driver simply reports it and the train is taken out of service at the next available opportunity
Procedures apply when over reading
As above, been on a HST when this happened and the driver was aware of it very early on (needle stuck at maximum of 60mph)
He was given permission to proceed

I'm clarifying Jon's point about cars....

 

[Maxfly]

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended, allows the use of speedometers that meet the requirements of EC Community Directive 75/443(97/39) or ECE Regulations 39. Both the EC Directive and the ECE Regulation lay down accuracy requirements to be applied at the time of vehicle approval for speedometers. These requirements are that the indicated speed must not be more than 10 per cent of the true speed plus 4km/h (2.5 mph)." "In production, however, a slightly different tolerance of 5 per cent plus 10 km/h (6 mph) is applied" "The requirements are also that the indicated speed must never be less than the true speed. A vehicle meeting these requirements would not be able to travel at a greater speed than that shown on the speedometer and a driver could not, therefore, inadvertently exceed speed restrictions. Her Majesty's Government have no plans to introduce instrument tests"


Also for the original point in the thread, i see no reason why it could not happen tbh, whether the 225's were only allowed up to 140mph during tests etc is irrelevant as dependant on when the OP experienced this, it is certainly possible i suppose as speeding was commonplace before big brother started watching and can still happen. All it would take is an eager driver/late running train, yep hard to prove it happened but also would be something you certainly could not dismiss out of hand as having not happened

 

[mallard]

I think it's worth pointing out that the film on the windows is to reflect heat, and a side-effect is filtering out mobile/GPS signals.

A rather fortuitous "side-effect" for the TOCs, particularly those that have expensive wifi aboard. Blocking GPS isn't exactly bad for them either.

Odd how trains seem to be the only place that this particular type of coating is used...

I assume it's the same thing that causes the windows to turn into mirrors in anything except bright daylight...

 

[cambsy]

i timed the milepost but also station to station and over stretches of the East Coast,id compare the timings id done with the Record Run in early 90's which id kept the log from Railway Magazine,and sometimes we were not far off it,it was generally on the 2 stop 3hr 59 minute flyer from Edinburgh to London,north of Newcastle probably didn't do 135-140mph but around 130mph,south of Newcastle there are good straight stretches where 135-140mph was safely possible and the track I'm sure could take it,i talked to a crossing keeper near Peterborough and he reckoned the 225;s did 140mph most days,they were built for it and had the power to do it,i doubt u would get much more than a 129 ish today due to governor and recording of trains,the driver were keen and the flyers were often late running so id say u had good motivation to crack on bit and speed,and some curves especially north of Newcastle were taken liberally,i havent got my logs any more but I'm sure if u ask Railway Performance society a member would have logged135-140mph on 225 in mid 90's

 

[DarloRich]

hm

Do you know where these locations were?
Do you know how far you will go in 1 minute at 140 mph?
Do you know how many seconds a mile will take at 140 mph?

 

[notadriver]

25.7 seconds to travel a mile at 140 mph. 2.33 miles travelled in one minute.

I can think of many racing stretches where 130+ would be possible.

 

[jon0844]

Odd how trains seem to be the only place that this particular type of coating is used...

I would have thought many office buildings use solar reflecting film/coatings too, as it helps reduce the heat in a building - which in turns helps the air conditioning.

Of course, in an office you're probably so close to a base station that you'll still have sufficient coverage levels.

A conspiracy theorist might say it's great for the TOC, but it probably isn't as people will complain and may well say (especially those nice first class customers) that they've got no choice but to travel with someone else/using something else (car). Didn't Virgin have to install signal boosters?

Wi-Fi is great for data (well, when it works and is fast) but pretty useless for those people who do still rely on voice communication. I hear there are still a few of these people around (even though I mainly use my phone for data services).

 

[cambsy]

the main 140mph stretches were Darlington-York,York-Doncaster,Stoke Bank,Huntingdon-Hitchin,and in mid 90's the 225's would get to 140mph or near to it,i timed mainly by station to Station or over a stretch,i had distances and calculator to work out average speed over stretch or station to station,

 

[tbtc]

i timed the milepost but also station to station and over stretches of the East Coast,id compare the timings id done with the Record Run in early 90's which id kept the log from Railway Magazine,and sometimes we were not far off it,it was generally on the 2 stop 3hr 59 minute flyer from Edinburgh to London,north of Newcastle probably didn't do 135-140mph but around 130mph,south of Newcastle there are good straight stretches where 135-140mph was safely possible and the track I'm sure could take it,i talked to a crossing keeper near Peterborough and he reckoned the 225;s did 140mph most days,they were built for it and had the power to do it,i doubt u would get much more than a 129 ish today due to governor and recording of trains,the driver were keen and the flyers were often late running so id say u had good motivation to crack on bit and speed,and some curves especially north of Newcastle were taken liberally,i havent got my logs any more but I'm sure if u ask Railway Performance society a member would have logged135-140mph on 225 in mid 90's

So where north of Newcastle were these speeds reached?

 

[cambsy]

said 130mph north of Newcastle,maybe bit more,the highest speeds were south of Newcastle,the flyer was best bet for speeding as it always late when travelled on it,it was due KX 19.10 and was always about 5 or so mins late,i often chatted to drivers and they didn't deny they were shifting along and even sometimes proud of it,one said u got the A team today,

 

[tbtc]

said 130mph north of Newcastle,maybe bit more

Yeah, I got that, I'm just interested in *where* north of Newcastle you were getting these speeds, given the short stretches of 125mph track

 

[DaveNewcastle]

said 130mph north of Newcastle,maybe bit more,

Yes, this is the claim I'm finding particularly interesting.
With as few mileposts and few stations as there are on the limited number of stretches between curves, hills and crossings ()where the OHLE rises sharply to provide clearance), its hard to comprehend.
But I am interested to learn.

For reference:
Distance Newcastle - Edinburgh: 125 miles
Timetabled time: 85 minutes.
Average speed: 88mph
(I posted the approximate locations of the short stretches of 125 mph running on this line in an earlier post.)

 

[DarloRich]

the main 140mph stretches were Darlington-York,York-Doncaster,Stoke Bank,Huntingdon-Hitchin,and in mid 90's the 225's would get to 140mph or near to it,i timed mainly by station to Station or over a stretch,i had distances and calculator to work out average speed over stretch or station to station,

hang on - you said you mainly timed the "flyers" Were they not Edinburgh-Newcastle (Stop)-York (Stop)-Kings Cross?

So you are saying you managed 0-140 between York and Doncaster? That curve by Balby Bridge Tunnel must be fun at 140 mph!:roll:

 

[mallard]

I would have thought many office buildings use solar reflecting film/coatings too, as it helps reduce the heat in a building - which in turns helps the air conditioning.

I don't doubt that buildings also have solar reflective coatings on the windows, just that these coatings do not seem to have the same effects of hindering phone signals and turning into mirrors at dusk that trains seem to have.

There are better coatings, but they're not used, probably because they are either slightly more expensive or aren't approved for use on the railway.

A conspiracy theorist might say it's great for the TOC, but it probably isn't as people will complain and may well say (especially those nice first class customers) that they've got no choice but to travel with someone else/using something else (car). Didn't Virgin have to install signal boosters?

I'm not saying that it's done on purpose, only that the TOCs/rolling stock manufacturers know about the issue, but won't do anything about it because it's generally beneficial to them. Virgin do have signal boosters, but they're apparently supplied by Orange, so they probably only work for that network and may only do voice at that.

Wi-Fi is great for data (well, when it works and is fast) but pretty useless for those people who do still rely on voice communication. I hear there are still a few of these people around (even though I mainly use my phone for data services).

You can get decent voice communication with a much weaker signal than is required for data, so the effect is mainly on data (and GPS).

 

[Scotrail84]

How do to get the speeds on your phone?

 

[jon0844]

I just think that many offices are in built up areas with a high density of sites, which means the signal gets through anyway.

These trains don't block out signals completely, but on a moving train with small windows, it clearly affects things more.

 

[deltic1989]

How do to get the speeds on your phone?

Theres a GPS speedometer app available from the Android market. I assume theres a similar app available for lesser devices (apple).

 

[scotsman]

On Blackberry, you just open the map and select 'My Location'

 

[deltic1989]

On Blackberry, you just open the map and select 'My Location'

When Blackberry works