eco-friendly hybrid double-decker buses for Sheffield.

[newbie babs]

I saw these types of buses on the streets a couple of weeks ago, sadly not on my route but nevertheless I am intrigued. They look really good and sound very quiet.

Stagecoach Yorkshire has introduced 21 Eco-Friendly Hybrid Double Decker Buses.
They supposedly use 20,400 less gallons of diesel in a year than normal double deckers, and also cutting the carbon emissions by 30%

I don't know too much about Hybrid vehicles, so could someone help me understand them a bit better.

If they break down are they as easy to tow from the side of the road?
Do they have more mechanical breakdowns?
How long could they run for, will it be a full day?
Is there anywhere else in the UK that has Hybrid Buses?

 

[trentside]

I don't know much about the mechanical side, but I can tell you that they're becoming quite common in the UK. London has been using them for a few years now, and Stagecoach now have hybrids working in Oxford, Manchester and Sheffield. First have recently introduced hybrids in Leeds and Glasgow. I believe the Oxford Bus Company (Go-Ahead) are also using hybrids on some services - alongside Stagecoach.

Stagecoach have also been experimenting with alternative fuels - in Lincoln they've recently introduced some Optare Solo minibuses fuelled by bio-methane. Smaller independent Anglian Bus of Beccles (East Anglia) also have some similar vehicles.

 

[Nym]

If they break down are they as easy to tow from the side of the road?
Do they have more mechanical breakdowns?
How long could they run for, will it be a full day?
Is there anywhere else in the UK that has Hybrid Buses?

1) Depends on how the're set up, not all hybrids are set up to work in the same way, if there is no clutch and it operates smilarly to a Diesel/Electric that being no mechanical link between the engine and wheels, then yes, you can't tow them with certain types of motor, it all depends.

2) Yet again, depends on maintenance and construction.

3) On batteries, I've known the 147 run a full route at the beginning of the day without knocking on the engine, but toward the end of the day the batteries are screwed and it basically runs like a Diesel-Electric train, with a small amount of starting assistance from the batteries

4) Greater Manchester has a fair few..

FirstBus on the 1,2 & 3 Metroshuttle
Stagecoach on the 42 and 43
Bullocks on the 147 (Theres two or three of them)
Maytree Travel on the 553 & 551 and some other routes kicking about, possibly the Salford Quays Link Bus

Strangely the Bolton Metroshuttle, that would be suited to this kind of vehicle uses a standard bus. Stagecoach also put them on silly long distance routes too. Hybrids tend to perform better with large amounts of stop/start rather than long runs where the extra weight penalizes you.

Personally, I don't think hybrids with batteries are the answer, definitely not stupid petrol hybrids that get a worse mpg rating than a 2 ltr diesel BMW 3 series.

 

[90019]

Is there anywhere else in the UK that has Hybrid Buses?

Lothian have 15 Enviro 400Hs that they got recently which are used on the 10.
I posted some info and photos of them being delivered in this thread.

 

[142094]

Lots of 'em are up here in Newcastle. Was on one the other day for the first time and they are very quiet.

 

[tbtc]

There's a few pictures of the Sheffield ones here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/sets/72157627715854892/ - note that the livery/ seats etc are all in Stagecoach style but green - it works better than I thought it would

 

[mbonwick]

If they break down are they as easy to tow from the side of the road?
Do they have more mechanical breakdowns?
How long could they run for, will it be a full day?
Is there anywhere else in the UK that has Hybrid Buses?

1. No worse than some failures on convential vehicles; a suspended tow is normally required. Depends on the fault though.

2. No - although they seem to suffer more with teething troubles, once they settle down hybrids are often more reliable than conventional fueled vehicles

3. Depends on the hybrid system. The BAE system most widely used in this country uses a mixture of battery and diesel power, depending on the individual requirements of the situation. It's perfectly possible for the vehicle to move off with no increase in engine revs, although this is unlikely.
The batteries are recharged via regenerative braking, so they don't lose charge over the day. This also saves on brake pads.
So to answer the question, they'll have a similar range to a conventional vehicle I imagine.

4. Stagecoach Manchester has 30 E400Hs in service with another 20 on order.
SC North East has 26 E400Hs
SC Oxford also has 26, and there are another 26 on order for London.

There are 19 E350Hs on order for Stagecoach Scottish depots (Perth & Aberdeen).

 

[newbie babs]

Had a look at the statement they released and it says "The electrical energy, which is generated by braking, will be stored in a battery."
Not sure how this is done, does it mean the more times it stops (as Nym said) the better because the charge will keep the battery going longer.
Only problem is what happens at rush hour when you don`t brake as much but just keep moving forward very slowly.

 

[mbonwick]

You've got to get away from the idea of "battery used first, then diesel"

Throughout the whole of the day a mixture of diesel generated power and battery-stored is used.
Remember that the battery can also be charged directly by the engine.

So, technically there's no advantage to braking more. Environmentally there is though as less fuel is burnt.

 

[Nym]

Thats not what I ment...

The use of regenerative braking recovers some of the kenetic energy into chemical energy in the battery, converting this back is benifical on shorter runs where the engine spends a lot of time running down or idling, the energy converted from diesel when running down or at idle is stored and used in a hybrid. No so in a conventional drive.

However on longer routes with less stops the heavyer weight of a hybrid drive unit means that more fuel is used to move it round, as a greater proportion of diesel burned goes into the motion of the vehicle.

And it's not as simple as braking = more charge.

Energy into the batteries can take the form of either...

Generated by burning diesel, either at idle or higher revs
Generated by feeding back through the motors to generate from the loss of motion in the vehicle.

Of course, feeding back through the motors to reduce KE introduces further levels of efficiency. It also of course, depends on what kind of drive system is in use. I've never looked into the various types of hybrid drive available, but for motor cars I don't see it as having any point, it's just too heavy.

That and batteries are rubbish, they only last 10 years.

Electric motors are good, but batteries aren't the awnser for long term energy storage.

If we are going down the electric route, how about returning to the time of trolley buses, using a fleet of electro-diesel buses running around the network. Similar thing could work out nicely for HGVs. The only problem is having to change lanes.

But the likes of Oxford Road, Oxford St etc. could have overhead lines installed for buses to use until they reach the end of the 'trolley bus' network, then fire up the diesel and carry on.

 

[newbie babs]

"The electrical energy, which is generated by braking, will be stored in a battery."

The above is what Sheffield had on their web site, I don`t drive and don`t know anything to do with vehicles so if I got it wrong then not my fault.

I will have to re-read what you put to understand it but thank you

 

[mbonwick]

Of course, feeding back through the motors to reduce KE introduces further levels of efficiency. It also of course, depends on what kind of drive system is in use. I've never looked into the various types of hybrid drive available, but for motor cars I don't see it as having any point, it's just too heavy.

That and batteries are rubbish, they only last 10 years.

Electric motors are good, but batteries aren't the awnser for long term energy storage.

I think this is the crux of what you were saying before - my apologies for misunderstanding.
For cars a hybrid system doesn't really make sense. However as noted it can delivery big savings for larger vehicles.

I also agree that batteries aren't the best for long term energy storage.

 

[142094]

Most (if not all) of the routes that they are used on in Newcastle have stops every 500m or so, therefore shouldn't be a problem with long routes and few stops as someone has said.

 

[liamnufc]

There's 26 of them in Newcastle and the run the 39/40 and the 12 on a sunday

 

[blair250]

There's 26 of them in Newcastle and the run the 39/40 and the 12 on a sunday

and break down most weeks :P

 

[HSTEd]

Ive always wondered about the Wimslow Road Bus corridor, surely it wouldnt cost that much to run wires from Picadilly Gardens down to Parrs' Wood and back up again, plus wherever it is that the other 14x bus goes (the other half of Didsbury?).

Even without dual mode busses that would allow replacement of a significant portion of the fleet due to that being the major route in that corridor