Denied Boarding With Mobility Scooter

[SickyNicky]

I was quite surprised this morning to discover that a guard would not allow my elderly and infirm mother (she has a heart condition) to board his train with her mobillity scooter, despite my father and I accompanying her.

She would have been able to get into the train without the scooter (and we could have easily carried it in and even offered to break it down so it would fit in the luggage racks), but she would have needed it at the other end, so we weren't able to travel without it.

Looking at the NRCoC it seems that taking a mobility scooter is actually at the train companies discretion, so perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised.

Interestingly, the station has a signal box and the signallady (is that the right word?) was appalled and was straight on to her control about it. She even came out to us and gave us the phone number of her control so we could complain.

Anyway - I wondered what the consensus about this is? Is it worth taking it up with the train company? It's a real shame because forum members will know that I travel by train a far bit, but, on my encouragement, this was their first attempt for some years, and of course it's likely to be their last attempt.

 

[First class]

Not again!? I remember the last thread.

What company, what journey?

Northern - Not allowed
Most other TOCs - Either not allowed or special permit required

ATW - Permit
C2C - Specific measurements and notice
Chiltern - Same
CrossCountry - Same
East Coast - Same
EMT - Only scooters that are folded down and carried on as luggage can travel on our trains.
First Capital Connect - Only scooters that are folded down and carried on as luggage can travel on our trains.
FGW - Only scooters that are folded down and carried on as luggage can travel on our trains.
Hull Trains - Specific measurements (slightly smaller than others)
TPE - 1 scooter per train with mandatory reservation and scooter permit
Grand Central - specific measurements
Heathrow Express - banned
Island Line - permit
London Midland - narrower measurements
London Overground - specific measurements
Merseyrail - specific measurements
NXEA - specific
Northern - Only scooters that are folded down and carried on as luggage can travel on our trains.
Scotrail - VERY specific measurements and restrictions
Southern - specific
Southeastern - specific
SWT - permit only
Virgin - specific



Wheelchairs are always conveyed.

Because powered scooters come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes, many have problems on trains, including: tipping backwards on ramps; being heavier than the ramp’s safe working load; or being the wrong shape to manoeuvre safely inside a carriage. These problems mean that some companies have trains that cannot carry scooters. So scooter-users wanting to travel by rail should contact the train company at least 24 hours in advance of travel to check their scooter can be safely accommodated.

 

[SickyNicky]

Northern on the Cumbrian coast line to Carlisle.

The interesting twist was the signalladies reaction - she was hopping mad about it - hence why I bring it up again.

 

[First class]

Northern on the Cumbrian coast line to Carlisle.

The interesting twist was the signalladies reaction - she was hopping mad about it - hence why I bring it up again.

Yeah, they aren't conveyed on Northern services unless they are folded up and carried on as luggage (the scooter that is, not the person ).

Guard got this one correct, sorry.

The signaller shouldn't really have gotten involved as she works for a separate company and isn't in charge of the train... Seems as she just got people annoyed.

 

[northwichcat]

Not again!? I remember the last thread.

What company, what journey?

Northern - Not allowed
First Capital Connect - Only scooters that are folded down and carried on as luggage can travel on our trains.

Wheelchairs are always conveyed.

Northern do allow scooters to be folded up and carried as luggage on their trains. They even print this condition in all of their timetables.

 

[SickyNicky]

Guard got this one correct, sorry.

That was my guess. Still - it's a bit strange that they won't accept a scooter that's smaller than a wheelchair but obviously will accept the latter.

I suppose she'll have to use her wheelchair if she wants to travel in future. But of course, it's manual so it much more of an effort.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern do allow scooters to be folded up and carried as luggage on their trains. They even print this condition in all of their timetables.

We offered to break it down and carry it on, but he wasn't interested (or perhaps he didn't hear or understand our offer somehow).

 

[First class]

That was my guess. Still - it's a bit strange that they won't accept a scooter that's smaller than a wheelchair but obviously will accept the latter.

I suppose she'll have to use her wheelchair if she wants to travel in future. But of course, it's manual so it much more of an effort.

I would imagine the weight of the scooter is heavier than a wheelchair!

Qamar Khaliq probably didn't help your case, (google his name).

 

[northwichcat]

Northern on the Cumbrian coast line to Carlisle.

Given all the stories about single 153s being used on the Cumbria Coast and up to 120 people trying to board them did you really expect a mobility scooter to be allowed to travel on that line? There may have been room on your outbound journey, but what if there hadn't been on your return journey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We offered to break it down and carry it on, but he wasn't interested (or perhaps he didn't hear or understand our offer somehow).

Maybe he wasn't happy that you hadn't done that prior to the train arriving and waiting until that was done was going to delay his train. Most local trains are only scheduled to be stopped at stations for 30 seconds or less.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Qamar Khaliq probably didn't help your case, (google his name).

And all the conflicting stories given to the media didn't do Northern's reputation any good.

The following 3 stories were all given by rail staff:
1. The Pacer ramp couldn't be used at Guide Bridge so he was told to catch the next service which was 323 operated.
2. He would have been allowed to board the Pacer but his son wanted to ride on his lap while he was going up the ramp so the guard refused.
3. The ramp on the train was broken.

 

[SickyNicky]

Given all the stories about single 153s being used on the Cumbria Coast and up to 120 people trying to board them did you really expect a mobility scooter to be allowed to travel on that line?

They/I don't live up here and couldn't be expected to know that.

There may have been room on your outbound journey, but what if there hadn't been on your return journey?

Fair comment. I'm not sure what we would have done.

Maybe he wasn't happy that you hadn't done that prior to the train arriving and waiting until that was done was going to delay his train. Most local trains are only scheduled to be stopped at stations for 30 seconds or less.

He was friendly enough about it - I have no complaint - he was just apologising that he wasn't allowed to take it.

 

[callum112233]

Northern - Not allowed

The other week I saw an elderly woman (who was on her own) at Wigan Wallgate board the Northern service to Rochdale on a mobility scooter. The conductor didn't seem to have a problem with it even though she delayed the train by 3 mins

 

[WatcherZero]

A mobility scooter is a motorised road legal vehicle, how many other motorised road legal vehicles do trains carry?

 

[mallard]

Well, I assume you'd already bought a ticket, so the TOC really has no incentive to put any special effort into carrying you. They have a legal obligation for "normal" passengers, but beyond that, it's just extra cost and effort that they'd rather not bother with.

 

[northwichcat]

A mobility scooter is a motorised road legal vehicle, how many other motorised road legal vehicles do trains carry?

Indeed. The first person I ever saw with a mobility scooter drove his scooter on the road. He still has a scooter and still drives it on the road. Many scooter users see them as something that can be driven on the pavement. While some shopping centres allow mobility scooters in pedestrian only areas, these are an exception as the highway code does not permit these to be driven on pavements. Even adult cyclists on the pavement are more legal than mobility scooters on pavements.

 

[Temple Meads]

Indeed. The first person I ever saw with a mobility scooter drove his scooter on the road. He still has a scooter and still drives it on the road. Many scooter users see them as something that can be driven on the pavement. While some shopping centres allow mobility scooters in pedestrian only areas, these are an exception as the highway code does not permit these to be driven on pavements. Even adult cyclists on the pavement are more legal than mobility scooters on pavements.

Agreed, fatalities have occurred, the size and weight of a mobility scooter is prohibitive to their safe use on the average UK pavement.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. The first person I ever saw with a mobility scooter drove his scooter on the road. He still has a scooter and still drives it on the road. Many scooter users see them as something that can be driven on the pavement. While some shopping centres allow mobility scooters in pedestrian only areas, these are an exception as the highway code does not permit these to be driven on pavements. Even adult cyclists on the pavement are more legal than mobility scooters on pavements.

Unfortunately, a lot of users in this neck of the woods seem to be unaware they should not be using them on the pavement :mad:

Perhaps it should be made clearer to those who use them that it's not appropriate for them, as road vehicles, to be taken on to a bus, train, or used on a pavement. Or that they can be driven to the pub and drivne home again after consuming eight pints.

 

[Wyvern]

I understood that certain scooters were intended for pavement use provided they are limited to 8mph. Indeed I often see them going round shops.

 

[Greenback]

That may well be the case Wyvern. There does seem to be a very wide variety of scooters out there, which can't help but increase the amount of confusion about where and when they should be used.

 

[Wyvern]

It really is a mess. Ive just looked on a website for scooters and wheelchairs. There's wheelchairs that look identical to scooters. There are also wheelchairs that are bl**ding enormous.

 

[michael769]

I understood that certain scooters were intended for pavement use provided they are limited to 8mph. Indeed I often see them going round shops.

The limit is 4mph - a fast walking pace. Scooters that go faster than most people cna walk are not permitted on pavements or footpaths. The faster ones can be easily identified as they are required fitted with lights and indicators. This type is IMHO entirely unsuitable to be allowed on any train, and it is very probable that using one in a station would be illegal.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Motorised Wheelchair - Allowed

Motorised Scooter aka "A Tank" - Not Allowed

weight issues and space are the 2 main reasons..Simples!

or the easy way to look at is

If it looks like a wheelchair..On

If it looks like anything else...Off (and I mean in terms of motorised scooters etc etc )

 

[GB]

Interestingly, the station has a signal box and the signallady (is that the right word?) was appalled and was straight on to her control about it. She even came out to us and gave us the phone number of her control so we could complain.

.

The signaller, at best, should have given you number for the train operating companies customer services department. The issue is nothing to do with Network Rail and by extension nothing to do with her so why she felt the need to get involved to the extent of phoning her own control I don't know.

 

[bluenoxid]

Do we really know that it was her own control? No we don't.

 

[HugePilchard]

weight issues and space are the 2 main reasons.

There's also the issues that the T&W Metro have had, with scooter owners going straight across the car and out through the doors on the non-platform side!

 

[SickyNicky]

Sorry - just to clarify we're talking about a non-road going scooter here. Really slow (can't go above walking pace) and no lights or anything.

In this case it really is just a lightweight alternative to a wheelchair for someone who can walk a few paces on their own so doesn't use a wheelchair in the "classic" way, but needs assistance for anything over a few yards. Because it's so light, it means they can manage to get it in and out of their small car as well.

The number given is a York number. I haven't called it because I don't think there's anything to complain about really.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry - just to clarify we're talking about a non-road going scooter here. Really slow (can't go above walking pace) and no lights or anything.

In this case it really is just a lightweight alternative to a wheelchair for someone who can walk a few paces on their own so doesn't use a wheelchair in the "classic" way, but needs assistance for anything over a few yards. Because it's so light, it means they can manage to get it in and out of their small car as well.

The number given is a York number. I haven't called it because I don't think there's anything to complain about really.

If it folds up, according to a leaflet we got a while back it should have been ok, the trouble is that there are so many designs etc its hard to judge.

 

[route:oxford]

Can you imagine if it were a requirement to carry scooters on all services?

I wouldn't be allowed to carry my bike onto an early morning service into Paddington, but could buy a chunky Scooter and zip along the streets instead of using the tube.

 

[GB]

Do we really know that it was her own control? No we don't.

Um, based on the OP yes we do.

 

[exile]

There was a time, of course, when you could get a motor bike onto a train though I think you had to pay.

 

[tony_mac]

the highway code does not permit these to be driven on pavements. Even adult cyclists on the pavement are more legal than mobility scooters on pavements.

Here is what the Highway Code actually says...

Class 2 vehicles are those with an upper speed limit of 4 mph (6 km/h) and are designed to be used on pavements. Class 3 vehicles are those with an upper speed limit of 8 mph (12 km/h) and are equipped to be used on the road as well as the pavement.
...
Pavements are safer than roads and should be used when available.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069852

 

[WatcherZero]

Class 1, unpowered
Class 2, Max 4mph and 113.4kgs
Class 3, Min 4mph and max 8mph, 150kg max. Requires indicators and a switch to limit speed to 4mph when being driven on pavements.