"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[HSTEd]

Why would the departure time listed on the working timetable have to be the one listed for the public to use? Surely they could just set the public timetable to show departure a minute earlier than teh working timetable and avoid this.

 

[jon0844]

I think showing a minute earlier for the public timetable would be more sensible, but this thread would still continue as people would now know they've got some leeway - and would moan that the driver dared leave before the working timetable time!!

For Intercity services, perhaps the industry should recommend people arrive at least 10 minutes before departure. It's crazy to turn up with seconds to spare for such trains, especially if you're booked on a specific one.

In comparison, missing your commuter train when another one is along in 15-30 minutes and you've got no reservation anyway, is not a real issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

What I don't understand is why we need to change a system that works fine for hundreds of thousands of people every day and millions over the course of a year and has done so for decades? Why do we need to work with the lowest common denominator of those who can't for whatever reason arrive a couple of minuets early like everyone else? Basically if it isn't broken why fix it?

 

[whhistle]

Seems the smilies are not working on your computer. Or do you honestly believe that?

Sorry but from my experience, yes.
While there are many honest people out there and every situation should be entered into with a clean slate, as it happens a lot then I predict many TMs and such don't have that "clean slate" attitude.

Shut the doors and leave then. If you're not there by xx.xx.00, tough.

And risk the passenger shoving a hand or the babies head in the door to stop it closing, therefore delaying departure?
Smart move :P

The way things are isn't ideal, but it's the best solution.

Remember, there are huge differences between Euston/Waterloo/Kings Cross/St Pancras to somewhere like Loughborough or Northampton. The larger stations have much longer platforms (where it has been said before), while somewhere local would take less than 5 seconds to board.
However, changing times to be 2 minutes at Euston, 10 seconds at Northampton, 30 seconds at Rugby, 20 seconds at Loughborough, 40 seconds at Chesterfield will simply confuse people.
It's a shame there isn't a simple rule that is 30 seconds for powered doors, 40 for MK3 stock, for all TOC's. Then, stations with manned barriers like Euston can have up to two minutes.

The other problem is the doors.
Take London Midland's 350's. If the train has been standing a while and all the doors are closed, the train will technically leave early as there is only one set open, or even the rear cab door. However, if all the doors are open, then it would probably take the full 30 seconds to complete the dispatch procedure.

If you would like to accuse guards of being "on the fiddle" may I suggest you get yourself a good solicitor, Slander and defamation of character looks great in a court of law!

I would suggest you get some better reading specs :P
I was simply suggesting (as has been said) that many passengers are on the fiddle which is my understanding of the post before where the OP wrote:
"I've heard the way they [GUARDS] speak to a lot of people [PASSENGERS], assuming they [PASSENGERS] are on the fiddle".
I assumed (as would be correct grammar) that the OP was still talking about passengers when they wrote the second "they". Although my old boss used to say "one should never assume".

Even though I am on your side, this is an internet forum, no need to get all high and mightily defensive about it. There's another forum which has gone bad because many people seem to be in the same boat as you, jumping on the "gonna take you to court" wagon because someone said something not positive about them. They should learn to grow up and take criticism.
Chill out a little bit - life is far too short to get wound up on the internet :P Although hold on a moment! Are you suggesting I am a slanderous person?! Surely you are committing the very act you appear to be accusing me of? :P Man, I am confused! Next it'll be Colonel Mustard in the Dining Room with the Spanner. It's always the Colonel.

Ah, the South West Trains attitude to treating your customers with respect, yes. "We assume that you're trying to avoid paying your fare, unless you can prove otherwise. Therefore, we insist on treating every one of you with suspicion, and nannying you about it with automated admonishments".

No no, don't get me wrong... I am very much a "clean slate" kind of guy in most situations. I have just learned the art of knowing someone who is simply trying to get something that they don't really deserve.
I've met many of those people in my time, which is why when there is a genuine person, I will go completely out of my way and double any help I may give.

But I am a pretty "say it how it is" guy. I'm not scared of saying the blatant truth (unlike The Sun's Dear Deidre - but that's another story!).

However, I do admit that depending on how a person is presented will majorly influence what I perceive whether they are lying or not. For example:

Suit, Shirt, Business - Probably telling the truth.
Although I suspect there are many of this group who are the ones cheating the system than I think.

Tracksuit, Kids, Poor-looking - Probably lying, depends on their nature when I speak to them.
Take Alton Towers at Easter weekend, dubbed by the staff "Gypsy weekend". You should see some of the scams they try and pull off, it really amazes me!

Old lady/man, frail - Probably telling the truth. I almost assume trains are a lot different to when they last used them.
I love old people! I haven't met a bad one yet.

It's not ideal no, but I cannot help it when usually it is true. A good example is the recent riots; many of whom I would slot into category 2 above. I certainly didn't see anyone elderly or in a suit breaking in to a shop! :P



Another way to think about railways is airports (specifically domestic flights).
You can't just wander on to the plane 30 seconds before it's going to take off. Hell, even 10 minutes before it's due to taxi out you can't.

Sorry long post.

 

[A-driver]

If they listed dep times 1 min earlier then everyone would complain that their train is 1 min late departing all the time.

It is much simpler to advertise that doors may close 30 secs early and rely on people's common sense to know that they need a bit of time to get to the platform and not turn up at station dead on time!

What's wrong with you people, it is really very simple and works well with the vast, vast majority of people who catch the train!

 

[IanPooleTrains]

If they listed dep times 1 min earlier then everyone would complain that their train is 1 min late departing all the time.

It is much simpler to advertise that doors may close 30 secs early and rely on people's common sense to know that they need a bit of time to get to the platform and not turn up at station dead on time!

What's wrong with you people, it is really very simple and works well with the vast, vast majority of people who catch the train!

So you are saying that that gives the guard the statuastory right to let the train go early? To make a conscious choice (it's a buzz word at the moment) to let that train go early knowing that they are doing it?

 

[A-driver]

How do you define early? When at work in a 377 very often MiTrac, my watch, the platform board and my guards watch all show slightly different times.

If the train leaves 30 sec early then I have no sympathy whatsoever-everyone else managed to get there in good time so why shuld I wait for the one person who decides to roll onto platform 15 secs before departure time-am I going by his watch, my watch, the guards watch, the platform clock, the trains clock...?

I am really struggling to get this thread...why do people have a problem with it? GET TO THE STATION IN GOOD TIME AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM!!!!!!


And places like clapham junction have a constant stream of people running onto platform, many only going to places like Croydon where there are trains every few mins. The doors must close at some point, so they can just wait for the next one.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So you are saying that that gives the guard the statuastory right to let the train go early? To make a conscious choice (it's a buzz word at the moment) to let that train go early knowing that they are doing it?

Why would it be a statutory right? It's not enshrined in law is it?


---
- Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[IanPooleTrains]

If the train leaves 30 sec early then I have no sympathy whatsoever-everyone else managed to get there in good time so why shuld I wait for the one person who decides to roll onto platform 15 secs before departure time-am I going by his watch, my watch, the guards watch, the platform clock, the trains clock...?

Well I am sorry, that is where I do have sympathy because a train is supposed to leave at the time it says it is supposed to leave, it isn't supposed to leave because a guard, not yourself, but a guard in general, feels like it.

If I go for a train and/or am running late for whatever reason but still am able to make my connection just, I expect a train to be there before it is due to leave and not have me looking at the time and seeing that it is off down the platform and there is still thirty, forty, fifty seconds before it is due to leave.

If I miss the train through my own stupid fault, fair enough, but I would at least expect, as a person using the train, the train to leave when it is scheduled to leave. Otherwise, what is the point of timetables, what is the point of the female/male computerised/manual announcement saying that a train leaves at xxxx

And maybe staturastory was the wrong word I used RCK, I apologise

 

[A-driver]

If a train goes 30+ secs before time, and I mean is pulling out of platform then you have every right to complain as it has left early. But we are talking about starting the dispatch procedure 30sec before the train goes.

And it isn't just down to the guard-is down to the driver on DOO or platform staff aswell.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

If a train goes 30+ secs before time, and I mean is pulling out of platform then you have every right to complain as it has left early. But we are talking about starting the dispatch procedure 30sec before the train goes.

And it isn't just down to the guard-is down to the driver on DOO or platform staff aswell.

Hey, I am down with that, to get the train out at the right time, you have to start the dispatch beforehand to get it out in time, I was merely making the point about the guard leaving before the time he was due to leave

 

[Steve Bray]

Not having read every comment and having seen these debates before, I am not in favour of this rule. I catch the 0732 from Dorking every morning (and am always there in time); true to form the door alarm sounds 30 seconds before 0732; by Leatherhead we're leaving 30 seconds or so 'late'; but at Worcester Park, and then Raynes Park, we stand at the plaform for 90 seconds awaiting departure, but by the time I get off at Clapham Jcn, invariably the train is running usually 2 to 3 minutes late. So leaving Dorking 'early' has made no difference whatsoever.

 

[Greenback]

You could say that without leaving 30 seconds early the train would be 5 or6 minutes late though!

 

[A-driver]

That is just down to the way the time table works. That time in the morning I believe that 120% of the track in the south is used-obviously that means that there is no way trains will run on time. It is the only way to do thing though without building new lines.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry but from my experience, yes.
While there are many honest people out there and every situation should be entered into with a clean slate, as it happens a lot then I predict many TMs and such don't have that "clean slate" attitude.



And risk the passenger shoving a hand or the babies head in the door to stop it closing, therefore delaying departure?
Smart move :P

The way things are isn't ideal, but it's the best solution.

Remember, there are huge differences between Euston/Waterloo/Kings Cross/St Pancras to somewhere like Loughborough or Northampton. The larger stations have much longer platforms (where it has been said before), while somewhere local would take less than 5 seconds to board.
However, changing times to be 2 minutes at Euston, 10 seconds at Northampton, 30 seconds at Rugby, 20 seconds at Loughborough, 40 seconds at Chesterfield will simply confuse people.
It's a shame there isn't a simple rule that is 30 seconds for powered doors, 40 for MK3 stock, for all TOC's. Then, stations with manned barriers like Euston can have up to two minutes.

The other problem is the doors.
Take London Midland's 350's. If the train has been standing a while and all the doors are closed, the train will technically leave early as there is only one set open, or even the rear cab door. However, if all the doors are open, then it would probably take the full 30 seconds to complete the dispatch procedure.




I would suggest you get some better reading specs :P
I was simply suggesting (as has been said) that many passengers are on the fiddle which is my understanding of the post before where the OP wrote:
"I've heard the way they [GUARDS] speak to a lot of people [PASSENGERS], assuming they [PASSENGERS] are on the fiddle".
I assumed (as would be correct grammar) that the OP was still talking about passengers when they wrote the second "they". Although my old boss used to say "one should never assume".

Even though I am on your side, this is an internet forum, no need to get all high and mightily defensive about it. There's another forum which has gone bad because many people seem to be in the same boat as you, jumping on the "gonna take you to court" wagon because someone said something not positive about them. They should learn to grow up and take criticism.
Chill out a little bit - life is far too short to get wound up on the internet :P Although hold on a moment! Are you suggesting I am a slanderous person?! Surely you are committing the very act you appear to be accusing me of? :P Man, I am confused! Next it'll be Colonel Mustard in the Dining Room with the Spanner. It's always the Colonel.



No no, don't get me wrong... I am very much a "clean slate" kind of guy in most situations. I have just learned the art of knowing someone who is simply trying to get something that they don't really deserve.
I've met many of those people in my time, which is why when there is a genuine person, I will go completely out of my way and double any help I may give.

But I am a pretty "say it how it is" guy. I'm not scared of saying the blatant truth (unlike The Sun's Dear Deidre - but that's another story!).

However, I do admit that depending on how a person is presented will majorly influence what I perceive whether they are lying or not. For example:

Suit, Shirt, Business - Probably telling the truth.
Although I suspect there are many of this group who are the ones cheating the system than I think.

Tracksuit, Kids, Poor-looking - Probably lying, depends on their nature when I speak to them.
Take Alton Towers at Easter weekend, dubbed by the staff "Gypsy weekend". You should see some of the scams they try and pull off, it really amazes me!

Old lady/man, frail - Probably telling the truth. I almost assume trains are a lot different to when they last used them.
I love old people! I haven't met a bad one yet.

It's not ideal no, but I cannot help it when usually it is true. A good example is the recent riots; many of whom I would slot into category 2 above. I certainly didn't see anyone elderly or in a suit breaking in to a shop! :P



Another way to think about railways is airports (specifically domestic flights).
You can't just wander on to the plane 30 seconds before it's going to take off. Hell, even 10 minutes before it's due to taxi out you can't.

Sorry long post.

What you have to remember is we now live in a society where people can be sued for anything, sites get shut down, moderators get sued because of what people put in forums (my apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick regarding are convo) however that does not change the fact that as a wgole forum users/mods/site owners have to be ridiculously careful what we say.

 

[The Planner]

Why would the departure time listed on the working timetable have to be the one listed for the public to use? Surely they could just set the public timetable to show departure a minute earlier than teh working timetable and avoid this.

Happens all the time, lots of examples of it everywhere. Usually you will have a PTT arriving and departing at the same time, which is obviously impossible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they listed dep times 1 min earlier then everyone would complain that their train is 1 min late departing all the time.

Whilst to many 1 minute isn't a lot, you would be suprised of the amount of complants that occur if it happens all of the time.

 

[whhistle]

What you have to remember is we now live in a society where people can be sued for anything, sites get shut down, moderators get sued because of what people put in forums (my apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick regarding are convo) however that does not change the fact that as a wgole forum users/mods/site owners have to be ridiculously careful what we say.

Don't mention it
As a fellow rail worker you get extra points.
As someone who I assume works through/near Leeds, you get another extra point (I like Leeds :P).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Don't mention it
As a fellow rail worker you get extra points.
As someone who I assume works through/near Leeds, you get another extra point (I like Leeds :P).

Im a Manc lol, closest I get to Leeds is Sheffield

 

[sheff1]

Why does this always manage to generate such a high quantity of posts? A policy exists, as a passenger you don't automatically gain the right to question this policy ....

As a citizen in a democracy I have the right to question any policy I wish .

In this case, though, I am quite happy with the policy as it stands

 

[trainophile]

It might be less confusing if the departures board didn't show "On time" two minutes after the train was scheduled to depart, and it still hasn't arrived!

 

[table38]

Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but it "strikes" me the problem only occurs because of the plethora of digital clocks at stations.

In "the good old days" the best you could have hoped for was an analogue clock with no seconds hand, which would most likely be displaying anything within 2 minutes of the actual time.

I therefore proclaim the solution to be clear... get rid of all the digital clocks and get some of these

The guards and platform staff would still retain their TOC supplied NPL digital watches and dispatch the trains as required.

Simples.

 

[infobleep]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I often see train doors being closed whilst an announcement for the train is on going. If I was heading for the train I might reasonably assume it was still open for boarding. Sometimes as the train leaves the station an announcement is still being made. Surely a pointless thing.

Perhaps there should be a by-law banning all announcements within the time after which the the doors are meant to be closed with fines for those that break the by-laws.

Of course with quite a few trains leaving slightly late, these closing times are not always stuck to. Some trains are booked to arrive and leave within the same minute so they can't leave 30 seconds then either.

I regularly turn up for the train at the latest minute but do allow time for the doors to be closed in advanced. The connection times between trains on my daily commute isn't long so I don't always have time to turn up much in advance. That's my fault I guess for doing a combined commuting journey which isn't so popular.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

If I may stick my oar in (God I can't believe this discussion is still ongoing mind...!) - I'm DOO on Thameslink and generally will close doors 15 seconds before the WTT departure time, which allows for the hustle alarm, the doors to close, gain the interlock, and then I am normally moving within a couple of seconds of the actual time (though to be fair I'm normally late anyway :P)

Thats my method where I can do the doors, but do find that I can get given the tip from platform staff at 30 seconds before, most commonly at Gatwick Airport.

It works, it gets the train moving right time, and as (Greenback?) stated if a train leaves even 30 seconds late it can potentially lose its path coming up to a busy part of the network, unfortunately with the LSE region being so heavily used every second counts!

 

[blacknight]

It seems to be a strange way of looking at departure times that the TOCs have in my opinion, as the minute of, say, 12:05 stretches from 12:05 and 0 seconds to 12:05 and 59 seconds. So even if the doors were closed as 12:05 and 15 seconds, and the train only started moving at 12:05 and 45 seconds, it would still count as on time in my book. A "12:05" departure time shouldn't just be referring to a departure that is on the dot of 12:05 and zero seconds.

If only life these days was as simple of keeping a ledger of arrivals & departures at a station & take these timings as gospel but in these days of computers its all computers & automated reporting points.
Should these reporting points are outside station bounds a train can easily clock 3 minutes delay when no delay exists on paper but computer says there as been a delay, so even before entering platform & coming to a stand DWELL clock is running a minute before train enters platform, if then reporting on leaving station is a distance off end of platform or don't register until last carriage as passed the signal which can be another minute, so train that starts moving at 12:05:45 in computerised system its flagged up as having incurred a delay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I put this to the OP, If a train is advertised to depart at 1205, how can it depart bang on that time if passengers are still boarding at that time. That is the advertised departure time, hence the dispatch procedure needs to start in good time before the departure time in order for the train to depart at the departure time... why is that hard to comprehend?

Nowadays people seem to be either hard of learning or unable comply with a simple directive in some cases they suffer from both.

 

[whhistle]

Im a Manc lol, closest I get to Leeds is Sheffield

Ahh, a Manky :P
However even more funny, I am proved "one should never assume" once again

 

[Oswyntail]

...Nowadays people seem to be either hard of learning or unable comply with a simple directive in some cases they suffer from both.

So what is so difficult about having the published time of departure as being the time at which the procedure starts? This gives total clarity to those who need it, has no confusing elements ("up to three minutes before departure") and has no undesirable side effects. To clarify: current system - passenger does not know when doors will close, and is expected to build in slack to cover a procedure he knows nothing about, the timing of which is variable ("up to"); suggestion - timetables are cast in such a way that the "departure" time is when the procedure starts and doors are closed, customer knows exactly where he stands, as do staff.
Once again, we have posters form (I believe) within the railway industry saying "It's that way because the rules say so" and no one being able to explain why the rules have been written like that, or why they cannot be altered. Instead we have had the all too predictable scorn poured on the customers.

 

[Geezertronic]

I have no association with the railway industry other than being a frequent customer and don't find it hard to understand the current rules regarding door closures. I cannot understand people who do to be honest. They are probably the same type of people you see on the Airport programmes that complain when check-in has closed and they miss their plane

I have never missed a train from BHI to EUS but frequently miss the return train due to delays on the DLR/tube (although I purchase an Off-peak ticket rather than an Advance ticket to cover this eventuality). My train of choice departs Euston at 1903, if I arrive at Euston at 1900 according to the Euston clock then I expect to miss it but am glad if I am allowed down onto the platform to hop in the guards open door to catch it.

 

[Aictos]

I still can't see what the problem is apart from some here making a mountain out of a mole hill, if a train is advertised in the timetable to depart at xx:15 then it's up to the passenger to be in a position to board the train prior to departure.

At some FCC stations, the trains are taken off the Summary of Departures screen 1-2 minutes prior to departure which is aimed at improving safety by not having passengers run for trains and injuring themselves which I feel the industry as a whole ought to be adopting.

 

[GB]

So what is so difficult about having the published time of departure as being the time at which the procedure starts? This gives total clarity to those who need it, has no confusing elements ("up to three minutes before departure") and has no undesirable side effects. To clarify: current system - passenger does not know when doors will close, and is expected to build in slack to cover a procedure he knows nothing about, the timing of which is variable ("up to"); suggestion - timetables are cast in such a way that the "departure" time is when the procedure starts and doors are closed, customer knows exactly where he stands, as do staff.
Once again, we have posters form (I believe) within the railway industry saying "It's that way because the rules say so" and no one being able to explain why the rules have been written like that, or why they cannot be altered. Instead we have had the all too predictable scorn poured on the customers.

I thought it has already been explained some time ago why the rule is inforce? To ensure a timely departure as possible.

I really can't see how or why people are getting bent out of shape over 30 seconds. If thats how tight you have left it to get onto the platform then unless your delay was caused by the railway quite frankly you deserve to miss the train.

The railway gets criticised all the time about how trains are always delayed yet when the companies do something positive for the greater good of the rest of the passengers theres always people that can't see beyond their own needs.

So what is so difficult about having the published time of departure as being the time at which the procedure starts?

Surely that doesnt solve anything?

 

[jon0844]

At some FCC stations, the trains are taken off the Summary of Departures screen 1-2 minutes prior to departure which is aimed at improving safety...

Are you sure that's not just another 'feature' of the new Atos system?