Northern Rail

[northwichcat]

A 6 car 150 would be still be over length for stopping at a 4 car board placed for 23m bodies. A 6 car 150 comes in at 120m, a 4 car 156 is 92m.

What I was meaning with 150s is they don't usually mark out 5 car stops on local lines so a platform with a 4 car board and with space space either end can take a 6 car 150.

 

[driver9000]

What I was meaning with 150s is they don't usually mark out 5 car stops on local lines so a platform with a 4 car board and with space space either end can take a 6 car 150.

Assuming nearly 20m extra platform, I don't know of many platforms on lines served by local trains with 120m platforms though.

 

[northwichcat]

Assuming nearly 20m extra platform, I don't know of many platforms on lines served by local trains with 120m platforms though.

They can get away with circa 110m platforms for 6 car 150s though, dependant on the single position, as the front passenger door isn't next to the driving cab unlike on the 156s. There's actually quite a lot of platforms on local Northern Rail lines that are in theory 6 car but the ends have been left to decay as there is rarely anything longer than 4 car using them - this is partly due to other stations on the same line only having 4 car provision and there not being any semi-fasts on said lines.

350s call at Winsford on a regular basis without using SDO despite being too long for the platform as it's possible to stop the front passenger door at the front of the platform and the rear door at the rear of the platform.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a slight aside, what is the maximum number of 23m coaches that can be accommodated in a single train at the three platforms at Manchester Airport. I ask this if a Pendolino-type train were ever to run services from there.

 

[DarloRich]

I think Northern just chuck out, joined together, whatever they have to hand, and what ever will roll come the start of the morning diagrams

 

[Nym]

As a slight aside, what is the maximum number of 23m coaches that can be accommodated in a single train at the three platforms at Manchester Airport. I ask this if a Pendolino-type train were ever to run services from there.

The platforms are 197, 198 and 200m long in the sectional appendix, do you'd be looking at with the current 390 carriage lengths...

Working off the 197m long platform you could fit an 8.1422 carrage long class 390 in it. Lets round that down to 8... heh

Alternatively you could just about squeeze in...

An 8 car 380
At a real push, a 10 car 350, although 9 would be easier.
or...
A 12 car pacer

So with the current fleet layout, you'd either need longer platforms or to drop one of the 1st carrages out of the unit.

 

[northwichcat]

So with the current fleet layout, you'd either need longer platforms or to drop one of the 1st carrages out of the unit.

Virgin sending one service via Manchester Airport would solve some pathing problems and open up additional journey opportunities and possibly reduce people catching connecting flights between Manchester and London. However, the plan seems to be Manchester-London as fast as possible, while going Manchester Airport would add a few minutes to the journey time.

 

[Nym]

IMO if there is to be a service off Crewe calling at MIA it should be one of the inter-reigonals, anything to make it 2tph between Wilmslow and MIA, preferably 2tph between CRE and MIA. Would make it significantly less difficult to get into MIA from the South.

And it would add by my reaconing about 10mins onto the journey time by having to reverse at MIA, it would be workable if it where a through station onto the Mid Cheshire Line and then it could be sent somthing like...

Piccadilly / Mayfeild - Manchester Airport - (Via Northwitch & Sandbatch) - Crewe - Non Stop Euston.

My reaconing is that about 40mins to Crewe could be acceived, but it would mean linespeed improvments galore.

When HS2 happens it should be and dear god I hope it is the case that the 'Manchester South Parkway' Station be a through station at Manchester Airport that can be served on route further north, and by services on route from London to Manchester.

Somthing like coming up from Rugley, the tracks would come into the Manchester Airport station, then have a delta junction for the Branch into Manchester, with about 10 platforms at 'Manchester International'
(In order from S to N, assuming the station is placed just N of the M56 Spur)
2 Northbound to WCML
Through Track
2 Northbound into Manchester
Through Track
2 Reversable for shuttles into Manchester
Through Track
2 Southbound from Manchester
Through Track
2 Southbound from WCML

I'd also provide a 'Manchester West Parkway' near the M62 & A580 just north of Birchwood, where HS2 would temporaraly join the Chat Moss line for Liverpool and the WCML, and run P&R Javalin services from both stations into Manchester via the Delta Junction at 4tph. BIIIIG Car Parks provided. (Off topic enough there?). Somthing like a Hitachi A Train in Northern Livery?

 

[northwichcat]

The best idea I've heard for Manchester Airport station is the one put forward by Cheshire County Council building a new rail line between Mobberley and Manchester Airport meaning trains wouldn't need to terminate at the Airport or reverse there. This could mean TPE services to the Airport could continue to Liverpool via Northwich and Runcorn or continue to North Wales via Northwich and Chester.

Network Rail haven't ever rejected that proposal as they've just said each time that there isn't enough demand for the Airport to justify building an additional line at present but it should be reviewed at a later date. I think the last time they said that was 2008 when they say review it again in the 2014-2019 CP. If Derby-Crewe is extended to the Airport and more Llandundo services are extended to the Airport as proposed I think the existing line will be close to maximum capacity and a new line should be justified.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The best idea I've heard for Manchester Airport station is the one put forward by Cheshire County Council building a new rail line between Mobberley and Manchester Airport meaning trains wouldn't need to terminate at the Airport or reverse there. This could mean TPE services to the Airport could continue to Liverpool via Northwich and Runcorn or continue to North Wales via Northwich and Chester.

Was this not the plan that the Strategic Rail Authority were examining before ther demise? I am trying to visualise its route onwards from the existing platform 3 area, past the hotel complexes and the airport apron, that are nearest to the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The platforms are 197, 198 and 200m long in the sectional appendix, do you'd be looking at with the current 390 carriage lengths... Working off the 197m long platform you could fit an 8.1422 carrage long class 390 in it. Lets round that down to 8... heh

Another point now comes to mind. The new stock for the electric services from the airport to Scotland will be 4-coach sets, so from what you say above, both an existing Class 185 3-coach set and a new 4-coach set could still share the same platform. Am I right in my reasoning?

I am not well versed in the classes of trains these days, so will these new 4-coach sets be Class 350 Desiro units?

 

[ainsworth74]

I am not well versed in the classes of trains these days, so will these new 4-coach sets be Class 350 Desiro units?

They will indeed be 350s. They might be a new subclass (/3?) as they're likely to have a higher top speed (110mph v 100mph currently) as well as more intercity style interiors but other than that they should be pretty much the same as any other 350.

 

[northwichcat]

Another point now comes to mind. The new stock for the electric services from the airport to Scotland will be 4-coach sets, so from what you say above, both an existing Class 185 3-coach set and a new 4-coach set could still share the same platform. Am I right in my reasoning?

I am not well versed in the classes of trains these days, so will these new 4-coach sets be Class 350 Desiro units?

In the future it's been proposed that Manchester Airport to Scotland will run hourly and join up with portions from Liverpool.

There's been suggestions that as the Manchester-Scotland frequency increases and Liverpool services are added on the 350s from that route will go to the West Midlands franchise for extra capacity and a new set of EMUs will be ordered for Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland. If North TPE is electrified then this could be part of the same order.

 

[Nym]

Kinda off topic, but could they not add some 450s onto the 350 order to save faffing around for SWT?

 

[WatcherZero]

Not unless the 450 was offered as a choice in the tender submission by Siemens.

 

[Nym]

Hmmm, order many many more 350s and order them 'accidentally' as dual voltage? heh

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the future it's been proposed that Manchester Airport to Scotland will run hourly and join up with portions from Liverpool.

Do I take it that under the new electrification system, both Liverpool and Manchester will be using the same type of 4-coach sets, which will be joined together at Preston, rather than at Wigan North-Western? What will be the capacity of the 8-coach train from Preston onwards in terms of both first-class and standard-class?

 

[northwichcat]

Do I take it that under the new electrification system, both Liverpool and Manchester will be using the same type of 4-coach sets, which will be joined together at Preston, rather than at Wigan North-Western? What will be the capacity of the 8-coach train from Preston onwards in terms of both first-class and standard-class?

There would probably be around 5 years of electric Manchester Airport to Scotland services before the Liverpool portions get added on (which aren't confirmed for certain but very likely if factors don't change), which would join up at Preston.

As no tender has been issued for a set of EMUs which would not start operation until 2018/19 it is not possible to say for certain on length and number of first class seats. However, for practical purposes we could assume they will be a more advanced version of the 4 car 380 with 3.5 carriages of standard class and half a carriage of first class.

 

[sprinterguy]

What will be the capacity of the 8-coach train from Preston onwards in terms of both first-class and standard-class?

As a rough estimate, assuming a twenty metre body length Desiro variant, then an eight carriage formation would have approximately 400 standard class seats and 50 first class.

 

[WatcherZero]

The NR RUS points out that the 4 carriage trains would only be able to keep up with Manchester demand for the next decade or so. After that to provide adequate capacity they would have to be 6 carriages though with issues of platform length and coupling I could see them perhaps only ordering 5 carriage trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The NR RUS points out that the 4 carriage trains would only be able to keep up with Manchester demand for the next decade or so. After that to provide adequate capacity they would have to be 6 carriages though with issues of platform length and coupling I could see them perhaps only ordering 5 carriage trains.

I do not want to sound cynical here, but the story of the supposed "4-car" Class 185 requirements that were reduced to the existing 3-car fleet, does tend to spring to mind. Can you see any "repeat performance" occurring and nothing more than 4-car sets being ordered?

 

[tbtc]

I do not want to sound cynical here, but the story of the supposed "4-car" Class 185 requirements that were reduced to the existing 3-car fleet, does tend to spring to mind. Can you see any "repeat performance" occurring and nothing more than 4-car sets being ordered?

Two big differences Paul:

Firstly, additional EMU carriages are unpowered. The problem with the 185s is that the manufacturer couldn't make any additional centre cars (because the emission rules had changed in the meantime, IIRC). Much easier to slot new coaches into EMUs, even if they weren't built in the same class (see the 458/460 plans at SWT for example)

Secondly, by going for an existing "model" of unit (350) there shouldn't be the same problem of having a "unique" class (there's nothing you can easily slot into a 185)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Additional EMU carriages are unpowered...... Much easier to slot new coaches into EMUs, even if they weren't built in the same class (see the 458/460 plans at SWT for example)

I had overlooked this in my attack of cynicism. I had noted what WatcherZero had said a possible 5-car unit being considered rather than the 6-car sets that really will be required to meet the envisaged demand after the first decade, as stated in the NR RUS document.

 

[Eric]

Why do Northern have Pacers running on the triangle?

Although I must confess when I saw the 142 pulling into Forster Square station it did bring back some nostalgia

 

[Nym]

Lack of EMUs until the ex ScotRail 322 come into use...

 

[Eric]

Lack of EMUs until the ex ScotRail 322 come into use...

Cheers for the quick update mate.

I actually enjoyed the 142 from Bradford to Skipton.

 

[northwichcat]

I do not want to sound cynical here, but the story of the supposed "4-car" Class 185 requirements that were reduced to the existing 3-car fleet, does tend to spring to mind. Can you see any "repeat performance" occurring and nothing more than 4-car sets being ordered?

The 3 car 185s are beyond a joke now.

Yesterday I caught the 17:06 Windermere to Manchester Airport between Preston and Manchester Piccadilly. The only available seats were reserved (fortunately I had reserved one of them.) Between Bolton and Manchester the train must have had 200 standing. TPE even use automated messages apologising for the train being so full and asking passengers near the door to try and move the train.

I saw a few other TPE services just as full while waiting for trains or passing a service I was travelling in, in the opposite direction.

Other TPE services are just as bad. TPE urgently need interim solutions for overcrowding. Waiting until Dec 2013 to put TPE's capacity back where it was in 2007 (before they took on the Scottish services) isn't good enough.

 

[valenta]

Cheers for the quick update mate.

I actually enjoyed the 142 from Bradford to Skipton.

I remember doing exactly the same journey in 2001, the Pacer broke down and we had to be rescued by other stock.

 

[YorkshireBear]

T TPE even use automated messages apologising for the train being so full and asking passengers near the door to try and move the train.

So like a flinstones kind of scenario?

TPE very full towards northallerton other day too, not too bad north of darlington but until then its standing room early and this is 1pm on a friday.

 

[sprinterguy]

So like a flinstones kind of scenario?

Must be TPEs' next stage of Eco-mode operation: Just switch off all the engines altogether and let the passengers do the work! It'll be a huge saving on fuel costs that they can trumpet about in a years time...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 3 car 185s are beyond a joke now....TPE even use automated messages apologising for the train being so full and asking passengers near the door to try and move the train.

I know things are bad but I sincerely hope that your last three words in your quote above are somewhat incorrect and that you meant to say "move down the train."...:roll: