"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[blacknight]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

For an 1130 departure I think it's reasonable to expect to be able to turn up (at the platform) at 11.29.03 or 11.29.35. The point is, that depending on the train or the station, I may or may not be able to get on the train, and I have no way of knowing this in advance.

So if you go to cinema to watch a film thats advertised to start at 11.30 is it acceptable to others for you to be attemting to find a seat at 11.29.35.

 

[BRX]

All this talk about closeing doors before departure time, how did we go on in the days of slam door stock did all these trains leave late everyday?
A 30 sec rule is enough for every train execpt HST,s etc with slam doors still, then 60 sec should be ok.The platform staff know what type of train it is and time required to get the relevent train away on time.
Why can,t it be a standardised time through out the network then everyone will know whats happening, check in times at airports seem to be standardised through out the world.
The idea of arriving 5 to 10 mins before the train departure is ok if you want to go train spotting etc, but what gets me is when your train starts at a station and its stood in the platform but the doors are locked and the crew turn up about 2 mins before departure let themselves, reclose the door they entered by then deposit there bags etc, before releaseing the doors for the passengers to get on and want to be away on time.
Try standing on a cold platform in winter with your train stood there and you can,t get on it till the crew think that they will alowyou to.
Sort that problem as well as departure time.

Recently I took an HST from Bristol to London and was surprised to find the train ready and waiting with doors unlocked about 15-20 minutes before departure time. Made me realise that this is quite unusual now. Even for long distance trains at Kings Cross they sometimes don't announce the train until five minutes before dpearture. Then there is a big scramble as everyone tries to get on at the same time. Same with commuter services at Victoria.

As others have commented, it's getting more and more like going by plane. Stand around by the departure board waiting for your train, then rush to get on when the gates are opened. Then close the gates before the advertised departure time. Book your journey in advance if you want the cheapest fares. None of this stuff is good from the passenger's point of view.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if you go to cinema to watch a film thats advertised to start at 11.30 is it acceptable to others for you to be attemting to find a seat at 11.29.35.

Yes, because films never start at the advertised time anyway.

But it's a stupid analogy in any case. Once I'm inside the train, I'm not holding anything up. How many seconds does it take to step through a doorway?

 

[blacknight]

Recently Yes, because films never start at the advertised time anyway.

Thats like saying I arrived late on platform because my train never runs to time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But it's a stupid analogy in any case. Once I'm inside the train, I'm not holding anything up. How many seconds does it take to step through a doorway?

If I had taken my seat in cinema in good time & film starts to roll on time I would be none to pleased at late comers blocking my view of the film. Both the cinema & train company publish the start/departure time. Both EMT & East Coast publish early door closure policy in respective timetables so policy is made available to public.

 

[Oswyntail]

Thats like saying I arrived late on platform because my train never runs to time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If I had taken my seat in cinema in good time & film starts to roll on time I would be none to pleased at late comers blocking my view of the film. Both the cinema & train company publish the start/departure time. Both EMT & East Coast publish early door closure policy in respective timetables so policy is made available to public.

The analogy is flawed - the advertised time of films is the start of the programme, which invariably starts with adverts which allow everyone to settle.
Train operators, in terms of the public timetable, have up to 60 seconds in which to finish whatever they are doing and close the doors. Right time can be up to 59 seconds after the advertised time, and that is actually quite a long interval; adding 30 seconds in front of that is just irritating. Another of the little habits that is being imposed to suit the operations rather than the passenger.
And, as for the farce of only opening the doors at the journey start a couple of minutes before departure (another operations over passenger victory), I am sure that that, contributes, at least in part to the problems with booked seats being taken. Create an atmosphere of "devil take the hindmost" as you see at King's Cross and decency goes out of the window

 

[blacknight]

Train operators, in terms of the public timetable, have up to 60 seconds in which to finish whatever they are doing and close the doors. Right time can be up to 59 seconds after the advertised time, and that is actually quite a long interval; adding 30 seconds in front of that is just irritating. Another of the little habits that is being imposed to suit the operations rather than the passenger.

Many of those 60 seconds are used & accounted for as train departs the station as most trains lack the acceleration of a Saturn V rocket.

 

[Oswyntail]

Many of those 60 seconds are used & accounted for as train departs the station as most trains lack the acceleration of a Saturn V rocket.

Surely it is not "departing the station" overall that matters, but starting to move from the platform, so acceleration is irrelevant.

 

[snail]

What exactly is the passenger doing during these 7-10 minutes that is in his/her best interests? Are they just enjoying the general ambience of a railway platform?

I'm curious as to what is so important to you that means you have to time your arrival on the platform to within seconds of departure?

 

[Jeremy B]

I'm beginning to wonder that too. I was delayed by ****less passengers arriving as the doors were closing the other day but could they wait for the next train , no they wouldn't. The man stuck his foot in the door to re-open it whilst his child entered but then as he turned for his bag on the platform the door shuts leaving him on the platform. Train starts to move down the platform then brakes come on. Doors open again then man gets on ranting & raving at anyone who would listen. Train gets delayed a few minutes but of course its the train companies fault according to him. I wonder......

 

[The Planner]

2) adding 1 or 2 minutes to an advertised journey time will lose rail its competitive edge over other modes of transport. Really? Come on.

It makes a massive difference in the TOCs eyes and can amount to 000s in ORCATs revenue. It may not be prevalent here, but if a journey is shown as 59 minutes compared to 1 hour and 1 minutes, it does alter the perception of the journey time. If this wasnt such an issue, why are we still paying £1.99 for things in shops where £2 is a more obvious price and is simpler to understand ??

 

[AlterEgo]

Stand around by the departure board waiting for your train, then rush to get on when the gates are opened. Then close the gates before the advertised departure time. Book your journey in advance if you want the cheapest fares. None of this stuff is good from the passenger's point of view.

I would say ensuring a punctual departure (and thus arrival) and making rail travel cheaper and more accessible to everyone are both very much in the passenger's interest!

People cannot reasonably expect to turn up ten seconds before a train leaves and still get on.

 

[Afro Jay]

Is the OP trolling? Seriously this is the most pointless thread I've read in a long time. Is your life so hectic that you have to make every second count? Let's get even more imbecillic and put platforms, the amount of steps to those platforms and the potential amount of passengers walking down those steps in the timetable aswell.

You're making a problem out of thin air. This thread is making me rage, I may actually hurl my laptop out the window. Just get to a station 5/10 minutes before and arm yourself with a book or mp3 player.

 

[Minilad]

Is the OP trolling? Seriously this is the most pointless thread I've read in a long time. Is your life so hectic that you have to make every second count? Let's get even more imbecillic and put platforms, the amount of steps to those platforms and the potential amount of passengers walking down those steps in the timetable aswell.

You're making a problem out of thin air. This thread is making me rage, I may actually hurl my laptop out the window. Just get to a station 5/10 minutes before and arm yourself with a book or mp3 player.

Unfortunately this subject crops up from time to time and it usually ends up with the same arguments batted back and forth and never the twain shall meet

 

[Schnellzug]

I think they ought to go back to the old days, like they still do in British romcoms, when you can run down the platform after a passionate farewell to your loved one and leap aboard the train by the last door.

 

[Minilad]

I think they ought to go back to the old days, like they still do in British romcoms, when you can run down the platform after a passionate farewell to your loved one and leap aboard the train by the last door.

Can I do that too, only jump on the very front door instead

 

[jon0844]

For Intercity trains, I'd consider them like planes - and expect to get on ahead of time to get to my seat and get comfortable. Ditto with Eurostar, where you probably arrive a lot earlier than the time you need to allow for check-in. Grab a bite to eat, walk around the shops or whatever - but don't expect to board with seconds to spare.

For a commuter train, I'd usually expect the doors to close on the departure time - and would prefer it if we had the public timetable set to show the departure time as being 1 minute ahead (or even 30 seconds, as I believe the working timetable can be done in 30 second intervals). This would mean people could rock up with a matter of seconds to spare, and not actually delay anything.

I agree that King's Cross is a mess as some trains are announced with only minutes to spare (well, the platform numbers) and it's not even possible to guess with 100% accuracy. Okay, most of that is down to the engineering work, so may get fixed - but it's been like that for a couple of years at least.

I do wonder how people who may struggle to walk could be expected to make the train at King's Cross (if it's not an EC/GC/HT service which can only be 0-8). Are they meant to seek assistance? If you do ask FCC staff, they often know the planned platform before it is put up on the screen (and this often varies from the planned platform shown online, for anyone thinking they can be clever!).

 

[BRX]

I'm curious as to what is so important to you that means you have to time your arrival on the platform to within seconds of departure?

Well, here's just one example of when it makes a difference.

I've just finished an appointment somewhere and am heading to the nearest station. On the way I look up the next train and it turns out they are every half hour and the next one is in 4 minutes. I reckon I'm about 4 minutes from the station. The question is, should I leg it for that train? If it's leaving in 4 minutes I can probably make it and it's worth hurrying up. But if the doors are actually going to be closed 1 minute in advance of departure, I've only got 3 minutes to get there and I'll probably miss it, so I might as well take my time and stop for a coffee or something.

If I know what the actual doors-closed time is I can make a sensible decision about whether to try and get the train or not. If I don't, it's a matter of luck what policy happens to apply at that station and I'll likely leg it and arrive out of breath to find I didn't need to hurry, or I'll not hurry enough and miss the train and have to wait half an hour for the next one.

And before anyone goes of on another indignant rant about how I'll turn up at the station and stick my foot in the door and delay everyone and bla bla, no I won't. If I miss it I miss it. If I'm the kind of person that's going to do that, I'm going to do it whether I turn up late under the current system, or turn up late under my proposed system. And if I do do it under the proposed system, the station staff will have a no-argument case to tell me that I got there late. People delaying trains by trying to get on at the last moment is completely irrelevant to what we're talking about here so I wish people would stop going on about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It makes a massive difference in the TOCs eyes and can amount to 000s in ORCATs revenue. It may not be prevalent here, but if a journey is shown as 59 minutes compared to 1 hour and 1 minutes, it does alter the perception of the journey time. If this wasnt such an issue, why are we still paying £1.99 for things in shops where £2 is a more obvious price and is simpler to understand ??

What you're saying is that the current system is the way it is because it's in the TOCs' interests. Well, the railways should be run in the passenger's interests, not the TOCs'.

 

[The Planner]

Why would it be different if it was any other way ? perception of a 59 minute journey over 1 hour 1 minute is the same whoever runs it. It would be in the interest of anybody running the service to keep journey times down as it would increase revenue.

 

[Aictos]

Doors are closed at a set time to permit a on time departure - expecting to board a train with seconds to go is daft and can lead to injuries when people force their ways onto the train.

 

[otomous]

All this talk about closeing doors before departure time, how did we go on in the days of slam door stock did all these trains leave late everyday?
A 30 sec rule is enough for every train execpt HST,s etc with slam doors still, then 60 sec should be ok.The platform staff know what type of train it is and time required to get the relevent train away on time.
Why can,t it be a standardised time through out the network then everyone will know whats happening, check in times at airports seem to be standardised through out the world.
The idea of arriving 5 to 10 mins before the train departure is ok if you want to go train spotting etc, but what gets me is when your train starts at a station and its stood in the platform but the doors are locked and the crew turn up about 2 mins before departure let themselves, reclose the door they entered by then deposit there bags etc, before releaseing the doors for the passengers to get on and want to be away on time.
Try standing on a cold platform in winter with your train stood there and you can,t get on it till the crew think that they will alowyou to.
Sort that problem as well as departure time.

The crew turn up 2 mins and spend time settling themselves in the cab before releasing the doors because:

- They are returning from their break and only 2 mins may be needed to set up the cab. Bear in mind that this break may be the only one in a 9 and a half hour day that started in the middle of the night - you might want to turn up at the last moment too and maximise your break given that situation.

- They may have just worked another service and are walking from where they left it on another platform. If it came in late or the station was crowded they may struggle to arrive any earlier. Factor in the need to use the toilet or get refreshment and it's even more of a struggle.

- Train crew do not necessarily have inside knowledge about where a train is platformed, they may have only just found out themselves.

- If another train comes in and departs behind the train you are now waiting for, platform staff may have locked the doors out to prevent anyone getting on it by accident. People frequently ignore the "Front 4 coaches" message and frantically stab away at the nearest door buttons. If these doors weren't locked those people would now be sitting on the wrong stationary train while the one they wanted is moving off behind them. Chances are the crew of the waiting train know nothing about this - they may have even have left the same train minutes ago with the doors open to go to the loo and come back to find the platform full of people waiting for them to open again.

- Working a train requires concentration and calm. You don't up your pace to suit the public's impatience and risk an incident. Thus if you need to spend a couple of minutes setting up your cab and being certain everything's done - lights set, brakes tested, radio fine - you prioritise that before you let people on. The doors are shut behind you to minimise distractions from people milling about and trying to talk to you.

- Modern trains may use a computerised system to set up trains. Some of these won't let you open any doors until you've logged on, set the train's location for GPS purposes etc. Older trains require some sort of key to be inserted before doors can be released. This takes time. Also, you NEVER rush door opening to avoid the risk of opening the wrong side. It's safety versus convenience. I think a few minutes on a cold platform (and remember train crew experience this when they travel on the train too) are worth putting up for a safer railway.

 

[Aictos]

The crew turn up 2 mins and spend time settling themselves in the cab before releasing the doors because:

- They are returning from their break and only 2 mins may be needed to set up the cab. Bear in mind that this break may be the only one in a 9 and a half hour day that started in the middle of the night - you might want to turn up at the last moment too and maximise your break given that situation.

- They may have just worked another service and are walking from where they left it on another platform. If it came in late or the station was crowded they may struggle to arrive any earlier. Factor in the need to use the toilet or get refreshment and it's even more of a struggle.

- Train crew do not necessarily have inside knowledge about where a train is platformed, they may have only just found out themselves.

- If another train comes in and departs behind the train you are now waiting for, platform staff may have locked the doors out to prevent anyone getting on it by accident. People frequently ignore the "Front 4 coaches" message and frantically stab away at the nearest door buttons. If these doors weren't locked those people would now be sitting on the wrong stationary train while the one they wanted is moving off behind them. Chances are the crew of the waiting train know nothing about this - they may have even have left the same train minutes ago with the doors open to go to the loo and come back to find the platform full of people waiting for them to open again.

- Working a train requires concentration and calm. You don't up your pace to suit the public's impatience and risk an incident. Thus if you need to spend a couple of minutes setting up your cab and being certain everything's done - lights set, brakes tested, radio fine - you prioritise that before you let people on. The doors are shut behind you to minimise distractions from people milling about and trying to talk to you.

- Modern trains may use a computerised system to set up trains. Some of these won't let you open any doors until you've logged on, set the train's location for GPS purposes etc. Older trains require some sort of key to be inserted before doors can be released. This takes time. Also, you NEVER rush door opening to avoid the risk of opening the wrong side. It's safety versus convenience. I think a few minutes on a cold platform (and remember train crew experience this when they travel on the train too) are worth putting up for a safer railway.

Well said,

 

[Minilad]

The crew turn up 2 mins and spend time settling themselves in the cab before releasing the doors because:

- They are returning from their break and only 2 mins may be needed to set up the cab. Bear in mind that this break may be the only one in a 9 and a half hour day that started in the middle of the night - you might want to turn up at the last moment too and maximise your break given that situation.

- They may have just worked another service and are walking from where they left it on another platform. If it came in late or the station was crowded they may struggle to arrive any earlier. Factor in the need to use the toilet or get refreshment and it's even more of a struggle.

- Train crew do not necessarily have inside knowledge about where a train is platformed, they may have only just found out themselves.

- If another train comes in and departs behind the train you are now waiting for, platform staff may have locked the doors out to prevent anyone getting on it by accident. People frequently ignore the "Front 4 coaches" message and frantically stab away at the nearest door buttons. If these doors weren't locked those people would now be sitting on the wrong stationary train while the one they wanted is moving off behind them. Chances are the crew of the waiting train know nothing about this - they may have even have left the same train minutes ago with the doors open to go to the loo and come back to find the platform full of people waiting for them to open again.

- Working a train requires concentration and calm. You don't up your pace to suit the public's impatience and risk an incident. Thus if you need to spend a couple of minutes setting up your cab and being certain everything's done - lights set, brakes tested, radio fine - you prioritise that before you let people on. The doors are shut behind you to minimise distractions from people milling about and trying to talk to you.

- Modern trains may use a computerised system to set up trains. Some of these won't let you open any doors until you've logged on, set the train's location for GPS purposes etc. Older trains require some sort of key to be inserted before doors can be released. This takes time. Also, you NEVER rush door opening to avoid the risk of opening the wrong side. It's safety versus convenience. I think a few minutes on a cold platform (and remember train crew experience this when they travel on the train too) are worth putting up for a safer railway.

May I also add at certain locations (Nottingham plat 6 for example) you are not allowed to open the doors when another train is pulling in behind you (Permissively) until the other train has come to a stand

 

[pendolino]

Well said,

Agreed. Particularly, speaking as a driver, the last two paragraphs.

On a 377 opening the doors for passengers takes at least 1-2 minutes. Key on, cancel AWS, wait for MITRAC to boot, log in, enter PIS code and confirm, confirm door configuration, wait for the train to find the correct location and confirm, check for and cancel any faults that may come up. Only then can you release the doors. And that's without carrying out a personal brake test and setting up the CSR.

 

[graham43404]

I saw a first at Paddington last night. A network rail buggy carrying an elderly passenger turned up just to late to catch a FGW HST that had just turned the door lights out. I thought they may have let them on but no off the train went. Harsh or justified?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I saw a first at Paddington last night. A network rail buggy carrying an elderly passenger turned up just to late to catch a FGW HST that had just turned the door lights out. I thought they may have let them on but no off the train went. Harsh or justified?

If it left on time then justified AFAIC.

 

[graham43404]

If it left on time then justified AFAIC.

That's what I thought myself, just wondered what others in the industry might think about it.

 

[BRX]

The crew turn up 2 mins and spend time settling themselves in the cab before releasing the doors because:

- They are returning from their break and only 2 mins may be needed to set up the cab. Bear in mind that this break may be the only one in a 9 and a half hour day that started in the middle of the night - you might want to turn up at the last moment too and maximise your break given that situation.

- They may have just worked another service and are walking from where they left it on another platform. If it came in late or the station was crowded they may struggle to arrive any earlier. Factor in the need to use the toilet or get refreshment and it's even more of a struggle.

- Train crew do not necessarily have inside knowledge about where a train is platformed, they may have only just found out themselves.

- If another train comes in and departs behind the train you are now waiting for, platform staff may have locked the doors out to prevent anyone getting on it by accident. People frequently ignore the "Front 4 coaches" message and frantically stab away at the nearest door buttons. If these doors weren't locked those people would now be sitting on the wrong stationary train while the one they wanted is moving off behind them. Chances are the crew of the waiting train know nothing about this - they may have even have left the same train minutes ago with the doors open to go to the loo and come back to find the platform full of people waiting for them to open again.

- Working a train requires concentration and calm. You don't up your pace to suit the public's impatience and risk an incident. Thus if you need to spend a couple of minutes setting up your cab and being certain everything's done - lights set, brakes tested, radio fine - you prioritise that before you let people on. The doors are shut behind you to minimise distractions from people milling about and trying to talk to you.

- Modern trains may use a computerised system to set up trains. Some of these won't let you open any doors until you've logged on, set the train's location for GPS purposes etc. Older trains require some sort of key to be inserted before doors can be released. This takes time. Also, you NEVER rush door opening to avoid the risk of opening the wrong side. It's safety versus convenience. I think a few minutes on a cold platform (and remember train crew experience this when they travel on the train too) are worth putting up for a safer railway.

You write all this as if people are blaming everything on the staff and not the way they are managed. As said before, things are increasingly run to suit the TOCs rather than passengers. This is not the fault of the railway staff, this is the fault of the TOC management and the lack of effective regulation. All that needs to happen in this instance is for time to be allocated to allow the crew to get to their train and get it set up with a decent amount of time then remaining before departure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would it be different if it was any other way ? perception of a 59 minute journey over 1 hour 1 minute is the same whoever runs it. It would be in the interest of anybody running the service to keep journey times down as it would increase revenue.

Well, exactly - it's in the interest of the TOC to keep the apparent journey time down to increase revenue. It's not in the passenger's interest.

Railways are a public service to should be run to serve the public. Not the TOCs.

In any case I think the number of cases where a 1-2 minute lengthening of apparent journey time (not actual journey time) would really result in a significant loss of revenue would be pretty minimal.

 

[OxtedL]

On southeastern metro services doors rarely seem to close more than 10 seconds before departure at DOO stations. On the occasions when I have call to travel that way, drivers regularly start the door close cycle literally at xx:xx:53, at every station drawing power exactly at the scheduled departure minute. Advantage of the Networker door system. I've never had cause to notice this with Southern as I can't remember the last time I was on a train that was on time enough...

As soon as you introduce more members of staff into the equation then departure takes that bit longer, so unfortunately you can't pull off arriving 6 seconds before departure reliably on any of my more local routes.

Tbh, as long as the doors don't close earlier than advertised I can only blame myself on the occasions I turn up slightly later than is safe and get caught out by one the 10% of trains that might be running early enough for it to be a problem...

I can see why people are annoyed by it though, nothing more frustrating than watching a train leave the platform 20 seconds before it's advertised and 5 seconds after you arrive.

 

[pendolino]

You write all this as if people are blaming everything on the staff and not the way they are managed. As said before, things are increasingly run to suit the TOCs rather than passengers. This is not the fault of the railway staff, this is the fault of the TOC management and the lack of effective regulation.

This is nonsense. Of course the TOCs run the railway for the benefit of the passengers, to suggest anything else is ludicrous. Go and work for a TOC and see how much emphasis is placed on the 'customer experience' (for want of a better phrase), part of which includes trying to dispatch trains safely and on time, which is what the vast majority of customers expect. We don't always get it right, but to suggest that there is a wilful attempt to ignore passengers' requirements is ridiculous and insulting.

 

[The Planner]

In any case I think the number of cases where a 1-2 minute lengthening of apparent journey time (not actual journey time) would really result in a significant loss of revenue would be pretty minimal.

Well unfortunately it does, I know of examples where 4 minutes made £3K a day difference.

 

[Barrett M95]

That's what I thought myself, just wondered what others in the industry might think about it.

I won't criticise the incident in question as I don't know the specifics, just the general story but I'm thinking it is a shame that some simple communication between platform staff and train crew would have seen the passenger board with minimal delay to the service. It sounds like the platform staff were just giving it a go without confirming it was possible. They may however have done their very best to get that person on board and this time it just didn't work out because the passenger turned up too late.