"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[embers25]

With swt our policy is 30 seconds before except at waterloo its 45 seconds before because people have a habbit of holding open doors. I have worked with the 30 seconds before departure rule for 5 years now and i very rarely get any complaints only from the people who came last minute and wondered why they have missed it.

How could they complain as you've already left!

 

[michael769]

I'd be very interested in knowing whether trains in Germany etc close and lock their doors before the advertised departure time. I've seen it happen in Spain, Italy and France, but I can't recall it happening in The Netherlands.

They certainly do of the Swiss federal railway at mainline stations. It is not obvious if the same policy applies on the smaller private operators - I suspect not though most "local" services operate at a fairly relaxed pace compared to the UK.

 

[Greenback]

Interesting! Some of the more rural parts of the UK also operate at a fairly relaxed pace though!

 

[WestCoast]

Interesting! Some of the more rural parts of the UK also operate at a fairly relaxed pace though!

True. My local branch line is rather 'relaxed', it's just the guard closing the doors. The same is true of many routes.

 

[blacknight]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

For an 1130 departure I think it's reasonable to expect to be able to turn up (at the platform) at 11.29.03 or 11.29.35. The point is, that depending on the train or the station, I may or may not be able to get on the train, and I have no way of knowing this in advance.

To be clear - this is a separate issue from me aiming to turn up at 11.29.35, and then missing the train because I get delayed by 30 seconds on the way there. That's a risk that I decide to take and it's my problem if I miss the train as a result. I don't expect the train to be held for me if I am running towards it at 11.29.59.

To repeat my earlier question, what is the downside of simply advertising the doors-closed time on the timetable? It would reduce confusion, and surely make things better for despatch staff too, because there is then no argument with passengers if they turn up after the advertised time (as opposed to turning up before the advertised time, and then being told that actually they are too late).

Downside would be that for instance say an EMU fails but a DMU is available under the present system whereby timetable publishes departure time replacement DMU could form the service.
However if your suggestion is taken up & 2 types of motive power have differing door closure times how can an alternative class of engine be used:rollorry your service as been cancelled due to no rolling stock of same class being available to form the train.
Think backwards for a moment timetable as a departure time in order to depart wheels have to turn before wheels turn doors have to closed & interlock obtained hence the need for doors to be closed 30 seconds prior to departure

 

[BRX]

Can't help feeling that there is a general tone amongst some of the posters here that passengers are generally idiots who expect trains to be held up for their personal convenience, and who barely deserve to travel on our publicly funded railways at all.

Having some clarity about when you actually need to get to your train, instead of not knowing until you get to the station (and even then not unless you happen to see the relevant notice) is something that would improve the passenger experience without increasing delays or making anything more difficult for rail staff.

The only arguments I can see against it are

1) people will complain about trains leaving 'late' more than they do currently about the doors being closed 'early'. I'm not convinced this will be the case
2) adding 1 or 2 minutes to an advertised journey time will lose rail its competitive edge over other modes of transport. Really? Come on.

Dispatch times vary according to the type of train, the type of journey, the station, and possibly the time of day. How do we resolve this in the simplest way?

1) take the longest possible dispatch time and tell passengers they need to turn up this much earlier for every single train on the network. So people have to wait two minutes longer than really necessary for many trains. Either they repeatedly waste time or they realise this is the case and start ignoring the seemingly over-cautious advice, result being some missed trains and unhappy passengers.
2) stick a load of signs up at stations, each with different times stated, and showing information that passengers only recieve once they are at the station. Result being confusion and unhappy passengers
3) For each train departure, advertise the doors closed time that is actually necessary for that particular service and location. Result being that it's completely clear when passengers need to be at their train, happier passengers, and for rail staff the ability to point at a clearly stated time if any passenger should try and complain about having missed their train as a result of them cutting it too fine.

Seems pretty obvious to me what the best solution is...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Aren't we now just discussing solutions for problems that don't exist?

 

[BRX]

Downside would be that for instance say an EMU fails but a DMU is available under the present system whereby timetable publishes departure time replacement DMU could form the service.
However if your suggestion is taken up & 2 types of motive power have differing door closure times how can an alternative class of engine be used:roll:

eh?

The same applies under the current system. The sign in the stations says doors closed 30 seconds pre departure, change of motive power needs longer so the 30 seconds sign becomes wrong. Or does someone run around all the signs in the station and cross out all the "30 mins" and write "1 minute" instead? And then run around and change them back before the next departure?

 

[lemonic]

I was on a TGV service in France a few weeks ago and was very surprised that the doors started closing 2 minutes before departure. I saw no notice of this at the station and would have been annoyed if I was arriving at the last minute (not deliberately of course, but perhaps because of a delayed connection) to see this.

I was also on an ICE service in Germany a few weeks ago where the doors started closing at the exact departure time. I think this is a better option.

For example: 2 scenarios
Scenario 1 (current UK): Train is advertised as leaving at xx:30
Doors close xx:29
Train leaves xx:30

Scenario 2: Train is advertised as leaving at xx:29, but in the working timetable it is scheduled to leave at xx:30
Doors close xx:29
Train leaves xx:30

I prefer Scenario 2. Journey times are not extended in reality and doors close at the time in the timetable. It also introduces consistency as you could have no time differential for DOO/rural services, a 1 minute time differential for intercity and most other services and a 2 minute time differential if necessary at termini.

 

[blacknight]

eh?

The same applies under the current system. The sign in the stations says doors closed 30 seconds pre departure, change of motive power needs longer so the 30 seconds sign becomes wrong. Or does someone run around all the signs in the station and cross out all the "30 mins" and write "1 minute" instead? And then run around and change them back before the next departure?

You asked what the downside of your idea would be so I gave example of differing class of motive power under present system there is no problem as timetable as booked departure time. But
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want to close doors a bit ahead of the actual departure time, fair enough, but then you should simply advertise that time on the timetable.

Do you agree?

In your original post you called for the door closing time to be published in timetable so if you go by your original post how can you use differing class of motive power to form train if doors are closure times are different. Remember if it aint broke then dont try to fix it

 

[Darandio]

Can't help feeling that there is a general tone amongst some of the posters here that passengers are generally idiots who expect trains to be held up for their personal convenience, and who barely deserve to travel on our publicly funded railways at all.

The same idiots who don't have the common sense to turn up for a train several minutes before departure, you know, just to make sure?

 

[BRX]

You asked what the downside of your idea would be so I gave example of differing class of motive power under present system there is no problem as timetable as booked departure time. But
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In your original post you called for the door closing time to be published in timetable so if you go by your original post how can you use differing class of motive power to form train if doors are closure times are different. Remember if it aint broke then dont try to fix it

In the current system, if there's a change of motive power which leads to an increased dispatch time, either the doors have to be closed earlier than advertised (by the signs on the station) or the train risks leaving late.

In my proposed system exactly the same applies. So nothing is made worse.

 

[causton]

I would say push all departures in the passenger timetable earlier by one minute. Close the doors at that time (one minute early) whether it takes 10 seconds to close them, 30 seconds or 1 minute. Then in the worst case scenario you leave on time, or early - with passengers being able to turn up at the station for the exact time stated!

 

[EM2]

Sorry if this has already pointed out (haven't read the full thread).
Taken from the current EMT timetable:

Right Time Railway
For safety reasons, and to ensure our trains depart on time, train doors will
be locked 40 seconds before the scheduled departure time. Gates at London
St Pancras International will close 2 minutes before the scheduled departure
time. We therefore recommend that passengers arrive on the platform at
least two minutes before the advertised departure time.

So SOME TOCs certainly do advertise this in their timetables.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Not quite the same thing! Whether we like it or not, it's a useful marketing tool to be able to quote fastest journey times. This wouldn't be possible if the timetbales didn't show the same journey time as claimed. Therefore, rail could lose a competitive edge if journeys appeared to take two minutes longer than they do now.

You'd be suprised how many times the Working Time Table shows trains departing later than the publicly displayed time, so this already goes on. If there is anyone in this country (and I doubt there are) who will decide against the train due to it showing 1 minute extra time, then they are going to be outweighed by the number of annoyed passenger who miss their train, rightly or wrongly. The competitive advantage of trains is that it is literally a turn up and go service. Why the TOCs seem to want to ape the airlines bad points (early check-in, etc) is utterly beyond me.

Not aimed at you, but it's pathetic the vitriol being directed towards passengers who turn up last minute. There is a plethora of reason why this can happen with many being entirely out of their hands and do not deserve the kind of abuse they are getting, "arrogant" and "selfish" being many of the labels used.

OK. So the timetable shows a departure at 10:00. Someone arrives at 10:00;05 by the platform clock and complains they could have got on as it is still 10:00 and the train is there.

Well no because 10:00:05 is not 1000. It is after that time. Seconds are not needed. This is just a pathetic attempt by the rail industry to improve performace figures, much like the edict recently that signalboxes that record times manually in TRUST should round down at all times. Previously if it was 30 seconds or more they rounded up.

 

[Squaddie]

This is a regularly debated issue on this forum. Most people seem to support this peculiar British practice.

It is a peculiarly British practice, and I don't understand those who support it.

I have extensive experience of travelling on arguably the two finest rail networks in the world - Switzerland and Japan. In each of those countries the doors close approximately 5 or 10 seconds before departure, without any discernable effect on punctuality. (Although, admittedly, the fine citizens of those countries are less likely to try to force open a closing door than the British are).

This is just another example of the way in which the UK's rail network is run for the benefit of the TOCs and their staff rather than the passengers'.

 

[GB]

This is just another example of the way in which the UK's rail network is run for the benefit of the TOCs and their staff rather than the passengers'.

Yes ok:roll:

I'm sure those on the train that bothered to get to the station in good time would prefer to be constantly delayed by late arrivals.

 

[BRX]

Yes ok:roll:

I'm sure those on the train that bothered to get to the station in good time would prefer to be constantly delayed by late arrivals.

Where's anyone suggested anything that would mean trains would be more likely to be delayed by late arrivals?

 

[trainophile]

I've just checked the minimum connection time for Newport South Wales and it is given as 5 minutes. That seems very short considering the size of the station and the distance between platforms, involving longish flights of stairs and bridge crossings.

We will be arriving from Hereford on an AP timed ticket (so cannot get an earlier train) with 10 minutes connection time before the departure of our train to Southampton, and we will have to use the lift as we'll have large suitcases. If the lift is in use (or out of order!), it will be a real push to get to platform 4 within 10 minutes, so if the train doors shut early we might miss the train through absolutely no fault of our own. If our first train is delayed even by a couple of minutes we're sunk.

What would be the AP ticket policy re. catching a later train in these circs?

 

[Aictos]

I disagree with your post below which states the following:

Can't help feeling that there is a general tone amongst some of the posters here that passengers are generally idiots who expect trains to be held up for their personal convenience, and who barely deserve to travel on our publicly funded railways at all.

Having some clarity about when you actually need to get to your train, instead of not knowing until you get to the station (and even then not unless you happen to see the relevant notice) is something that would improve the passenger experience without increasing delays or making anything more difficult for rail staff.

The reason I disagree with what potentially are slanderous remarks is simply because myself and some of the posters here are of the shared opinion that it's in the average passenger's best interests to be on the platform in good time ready to board your service which could be anything between 7 to 10 minutes before the booked timetable departure.

Aren't we now just discussing solutions for problems that don't exist?

Well said, pity there isn't a "I like this post" button

Yes ok

I'm sure those on the train that bothered to get to the station in good time would prefer to be constantly delayed by late arrivals.

Once again, "I like this post",

Indeed as I pointed out to a commuter arriving late one day who got onto the platform just as the train was leaving that they had a second train going to their destination leaving the station just 10 minutes later when they complained about this, I kindly explained that I could either delay the train and let them get on forgetting about the 200+ passengers who were waiting on the platforms at the next few stations the train was calling at or let the train depart on time and let them board the next available service.

Same with buses, I don't expect to get on a bus after it's timetabled departure unless of course it was running late and it hadn't departed yet.

 

[Parham Wood]

I support platform barriers/doors closed at the time stated in the timetable, then I know the latest time I have to be boarding the train. I do not have to worry about whether it is 30secs here or two minutes there before departure time. There are enough hassles in catching trains these days without adding more - eg overpriced travel, the need to book in advance for better value fares etc..
It is logical at terminal stations where a passenger has to walk a distance to the train from the barrier that the working departure is 30secs or so later. I do not have a problem with this.
I have to ask why it takes so long for the train to start after doors are closed. Logic says signal is set to proceed aspect in time for train to leave on time, doors are closed, guard presses go button and driver starts train. OK if someone holds the door open this will delay things, but surely this is what platform staff are for at stations to chivvy these people along. I am sure someone will say something that at busy stations platform staff have to indicate to the signalman the train is ready to leave before he gives the road but surely this is done immediately the barrier is shut.

Why the long delay on long distance trains to despatch long distance trains if I gather correctly from what is being said?

Are we also saying that at Waterloo East for example doors on trains are shut 60-30secs before the train is timetabled to leave? With the frequency of trains I cannot believe this is so (or things have indeed got a lot sillier since when I used to travel often). I once travelled in from Richmond and at that time there was a train every 2 mins or so in the peak time. I can remember it was not unusual for trains to be on the move again 10-12 secs after stopping with 100 or people having joined and some even having detrained. Very slick work by the station staff and woe betide anyone that left a door open or dawdled. So what last boarding allowance is required varies by station, type of passenger traffic and frequency of trains. Hence shutting gate/doors at the timetable advertised time and adjusting the working timetable to allow for getting passengers boarded seems a much better and more consistent approach.

 

[BRX]

myself and some of the posters here are of the shared opinion that it's in the average passenger's best interests to be on the platform in good time ready to board your service which could be anything between 7 to 10 minutes before the booked timetable departure.

As a matter of interest how do you arrive at this figure of 7-10 minutes?

And what actually happens during these 7-10 minutes? What exactly is the passenger doing during these 7-10 minutes that is in his/her best interests? Are they just enjoying the general ambience of a railway platform?

Indeed as I pointed out to a commuter arriving late one day who got onto the platform just as the train was leaving that they had a second train going to their destination leaving the station just 10 minutes later when they complained about this, I kindly explained that I could either delay the train and let them get on forgetting about the 200+ passengers who were waiting on the platforms at the next few stations the train was calling at or let the train depart on time and let them board the next available service.

Fascinating anecdote but what's it got to do with what we're discussing here?

 

[Jock]

It is a peculiarly British practice, and I don't understand those who support it.

I have extensive experience of travelling on arguably the two finest rail networks in the world - Switzerland and Japan. In each of those countries the doors close approximately 5 or 10 seconds before departure, without any discernable effect on punctuality. (Although, admittedly, the fine citizens of those countries are less likely to try to force open a closing door than the British are).

This is just another example of the way in which the UK's rail network is run for the benefit of the TOCs and their staff rather than the passengers'.

Would that be the same passengers (albeit a minority, yes) that are insistant on turning up as the doors are closing, pushing there kids onto the train, throwing there luggage on and only THEN do they attempt to get on. By which time the train has received a sub threshold delay in the station and potentially delayed a trainload of passengers whom could miss there connecting services at the destination station

 

[Aictos]

As a matter of interest how do you arrive at this figure of 7-10 minutes?

And what actually happens during these 7-10 minutes? What exactly is the passenger doing during these 7-10 minutes that is in his/her best interests? Are they just enjoying the general ambience of a railway platform?





Fascinating anecdote but what's it got to do with what we're discussing here?

Firstly, that was a average time needed to be on the platform to board a average train - it varies between stations ie Kings Cross requires 15 minutes while Peterborough I believe is 7 minutes.

I was using the time period above as a average time the passenger needs to use, as to what the passenger might want to do well have you considered the passenger may want to buy a paper, get a coffee, check the platform, ask the staff a question regarding their ticket etc...this is why it's best not to leave everything to the last minute.

As to my anecdote, I was merely pointing out that train doors can and do close up to 20 seconds early for commuter services in the former NSE area so the train departs at 00:00 exactly, in other words a on time departure not 0:05 or 00:20 but 00:00.

And that your argument that the doors should close at the time in the timetable is wrong.

So rather then going off topic, I've actually stayed within the topic of discussion!

 

[michael769]

Firstly, that was a average time needed to be on the platform to board a average train - it varies between stations ie Kings Cross requires 15 minutes while Peterborough I believe is 7 minutes.

Sorry but that is nonsense. getting on the platform 2 minutes before departure is all that is needed and even that is just to avoid a last minute rush.

I wonder if you are getting confused by connection time - ie the time needed to get off an arriving train through the crowds, find your platform and then get to your next train. That can indeed take some time at major stations.

 

[lincolnshire]

All this talk about closeing doors before departure time, how did we go on in the days of slam door stock did all these trains leave late everyday?
A 30 sec rule is enough for every train execpt HST,s etc with slam doors still, then 60 sec should be ok.The platform staff know what type of train it is and time required to get the relevent train away on time.
Why can,t it be a standardised time through out the network then everyone will know whats happening, check in times at airports seem to be standardised through out the world.
The idea of arriving 5 to 10 mins before the train departure is ok if you want to go train spotting etc, but what gets me is when your train starts at a station and its stood in the platform but the doors are locked and the crew turn up about 2 mins before departure let themselves, reclose the door they entered by then deposit there bags etc, before releaseing the doors for the passengers to get on and want to be away on time.
Try standing on a cold platform in winter with your train stood there and you can,t get on it till the crew think that they will alowyou to.
Sort that problem as well as departure time.

 

[michael769]

All this talk about closeing doors before departure time, how did we go on in the days of slam door stock did all these trains leave late everyday?

Quite often there were delays. The staff would close the doors only for someone to open one get and and leave it open.

And yes people were injured when the train moved off.

 

[Hydro]

People used to run alongside the train, open the door and jump on as it was leaving. The guard then had to give one on the bell for an emergency stop. Seen it many times.

 

[Minstral25]

I've seen this argument many times. It takes trains at most Southern stations between 10 and 15 seconds for the guard to shut the doors, give the all clear and the train move off (Watched time carefully at 5 stations along the line on a London Bridge train yesterday when this was achieved at all stations)

Still don't understand when a train is advertised as 10:20 and I'm at the ticket gate at 10:19 and run to catch the train at the platform arrive 30 seconds before train is due to go and can't get on because the doors are closed and wait 30 minutes for the next one - yes I should have planned better and arrived a bit earlier but life doesn't work that was and it's totally frustrating as a passenger to see the train locked up and pull out because you don't feel you have missed it but it left early.

If the train companies need 30 seconds to get the train out the platform then advertised the time, close the doors at this time but time the train in the working timetable to leave at 10:20:30 - simples and then this argument doesn't occur.

 

[BRX]

Firstly, that was a average time needed to be on the platform to board a average train - it varies between stations ie Kings Cross requires 15 minutes while Peterborough I believe is 7 minutes.

I was using the time period above as a average time the passenger needs to use, as to what the passenger might want to do well have you considered the passenger may want to buy a paper, get a coffee, check the platform, ask the staff a question regarding their ticket etc...this is why it's best not to leave everything to the last minute.

If you want to get a coffee before getting on the train, the you arrive with time to get a coffee. If you don't want to get a coffee, you arrive with time to get on the train. And there is absolutely no way that it's necessary to stand on the platform for ten minutes before the train departs.

As to my anecdote, I was merely pointing out that train doors can and do close up to 20 seconds early for commuter services in the former NSE area so the train departs at 00:00 exactly, in other words a on time departure not 0:05 or 00:20 but 00:00.

And that your argument that the doors should close at the time in the timetable is wrong.

So rather then going off topic, I've actually stayed within the topic of discussion!

I don't think you've understood what we're talking about here.