Arriva Wales Club 55 anomalies

[chalkie99]

I am trying to get some use from the Club 55 promotion but the Arriva site seems a bit odd.

For example, if I try Cardiff to Manchester (which is advertised at £19.50) I am offered not only the £19.50 fare but also the basic £18.00 fare.

The Liverpool trips seem to work as advertised with their add-on but for Birmingham I am unable to get promotional fares at all.

Neither am I able to get any of the FGW add-ons although if I go the FGW site I can book even from my local station at Pontyclun quite easily throughto Penzance.

Is this typical of online booking problems for these promotions and am I likely to have similar trouble buying a ticket on the day as I don't want to make plans and then be disappointed?

 

[firespire]

Cardiff/Pontyclun to Manchester is £18. You shouldn't pay the £1.50 add on that is for Northern Rail travel onwards to Greater Manchester Stations.
The £18 is fine within the Arriva Trains Wales network on the following operators - http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Club55TermsConditions/

Club 55 tickets can be used on the services of other train operators within the Arriva Trains Wales network for line of route travel only using the following operators: First Great Western, Cross Country, London Midland, Virgin Trains between North Wales and Crewe.

I'm not sure why the website is poor and struggling with trips to Birmingham or FGW add ons.
I often use http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/ to see if a fare is in the system, Club 55 fares sometimes pop up especially using "show slower routes" options. (I'm not sure if you can use it to buy and I wouldn't trust it sometimes eg. it seems to think you can use Club 55 to go to Manchester via Bristol/Cheltenham Spa which is wrong.)

The Birmingham tickets and the £23 ATW plus FGW add ons tickets do appear to be in the system so should be ok buying on the day.

 

[chalkie99]

Thank you for your help.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The £19.50 Cardiff-Manchester is if you combine ATW with Northern (eg using Northern from Crewe, or travelling on to to say Rochdale), but it's £18.00 if you stick to ATW which are the faster trains anyway to Manchester.

I went Chester to Taunton recently for £23, no problem booking on the ATW site with the £5 FGW add on. This is as far as you can go with the ATW offer.

Penzance is beyond the ATW 55-plus offer map, so you can only get it via the FGW offer (although you might be able get the ticket from an ATW station, it's still the FGW deal).

 

[chalkie99]

Thanks for all your help with these queries.

I managed to do my first Club 55 yesterday travelling the Heart of Wales line by buying a single Pontyclun - Bridgend and then a Club 55 Bridgend - Shrewsbury travelling west/north and returned from Shrewsbury on the faster line which ran directly to Pontyclun (or would have done had there not been "maintenance" problems :roll: ).

I think I have discovered why I cannot get the service I want for Birmingham.

There is an 07.22 from Pontyclun which changes at Cardiff and runs via Cheltenham to Birmingham but, it seems, the Club 55 is not available as the service transfers to Cross Country at Cardiff. The later 09.52 from Pontyclun runs direct to Cheltenham by Arriva and only changes to Cross Country at Cheltenham.

I imagine that because Cross country are running more of the service that the promotion does not apply.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You haven't said what day you are travelling but.....

6. On Mondays to Fridays, some morning travel restrictions will apply. Journeys may not be made which arrive into Cardiff Stations, Birmingham Stations, Manchester Stations or Liverpool Stations before 9:30am and 10.00am for London Marylebone. Evening travel restrictions also apply to departures from London Marylebone from 4.00pm to 7.00pm.

The 0722 from Pontyclun arrives in Cardiff before 0930.

 

[chalkie99]

Oddly though, the 0722 arrives into Cardiff and then carries on to Manchester.

I can sit on that train through both Cardiff and Newport and travel to Manchester but cannot change onto a departing Cardiff to Birmingham even though it does not arrive in Birmingham until 09.45. Also, I cannot book a Cardiff to Birmingham even after 0930 departure.

 

[Greenback]

It's not odd. If the train arrives in Cardiff before 0930, Club55 will not be valid on it, regardless of whether it is the final destination or not.

You should not be able to get Club55 tickets on that train at all.

 

[chalkie99]

Here is a screen grab which suggests otherwise, unless you think my ticket would be refused on the day.

I don't know if the website is being updated ad hoc but I am beginning to see options which were not available a couple of hours ago.

 

[Greenback]

That is strange. My reading of the conditions is that you won't be able to use the offer on any train that arrives or passes through Cardiff (or the other main station named) before the times stated, Monday to Firday.

Mind you, there have been numerous problems with these offers previously. Mostly these have been due to glitches and programming issues with the journey planners. An email to ATW may help to clarify things.

 

[chalkie99]

May have to try that as I would not like to find myself denied a ticket purchase after boarding the train!

Note the FGW site allows Pontyclun to Penzance for £20 total commencing on the 07.22 ATW to Cardiff, then transferring onto FGW services.

 

[Greenback]

The ATW website seems to suggest that the FGW add on is only available to selected destinations up to Castle Cary. Penzance is not included.

The FGW website states that an add on to the FGW scheme can be purchased to travel in Wales.

Presumably a Penzance ticket falls under the FGW scheme so does not count for the 0930 rule.

Isn't the fragmentation fo the railway a wonderful thing!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Indeed, the FGW offer (starting at £20) allows travel on ATW and covers Penzance. The only restriction on FGW is on trains headed into London in the morning and out of London in the evening, there is no noted restrictions for ATW on the website.

 

[extendedpaul]

I e-mailed ATW last year to clarify the 9.30 rule on Club 55 tickets. The reply stated that the tickets are valid on journeys through Cardiff before 9.30am on weekdays but not if Cardiff is the final destination. I have since made many journeys without any problem starting from Caerphilly to Cardiff before 7am, including Holyhead, Manchester and Shrewsbury via the Heart of Wales line. I carry a print out of the email with my passport but have never been challenged.

 

[Greenback]

It all seems a bit muddled. When they say 'final destination', does that mean the final destination fo the train, or just the journey?

 

[extendedpaul]

It's the final destination of the journey that counts, ie what's on the ticket. That would mean you could catch an early train to Newport from say Carmarthen but not to Cardiff. The e mail I received read something like "Your ticket would be valid because you are only passing through Cardiff en route to your destination..."

I agree it is muddled but am grateful I can pass through Cardiff before 9.30am as some of the day trips I have made to North wales would be near impossible otherwise.

 

[chalkie99]

Thanks and I have mailed customer services for some clarification so hopefully may get a reply on Monday.

These bookings do seem all over the place though.

One example:

07.22 from Pontyclun runs as Arriva to Cardiff and then transfers to 07.45 Cross Country service to Birmingham arriving 09.45, so after the 09.30 time limit.

This comes up as not available on Club 55.

10.52 from Pontyclun is exactly the same service but does allow Club 55.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't recall what the restrictions said last year, but currently it is....

6. On Mondays to Fridays, some morning travel restrictions will apply. Journeys may not be made which arrive into Cardiff Stations, Birmingham Stations, Manchester Stations or Liverpool Stations before 9:30am and 10.00am for London Marylebone. Evening travel restrictions also apply to departures from London Marylebone from 4.00pm to 7.00pm.

....which seems quite clear to me. "Journeys may not be made which arrive into...." does not specifically target the destination for the restriction

 

[extendedpaul]

I'm fairly sure the wording was the same last year. I considered it to be ambiguous and e-mailed to clarify whether "journey" meant my journey or the train's journey - the reply said it was my journey.

If the goalposts have now changed they won't get my custom again - fortunately I've made most of the journeys I wanted to do. The return journey from North Wales/Manchester back to Cardiff has become a bit of a drag having done it a dozen or so times now !

 

[Greenback]

I also consider it ambiguous. Though I do like HHF's statement that it does not target the destination. Logically this is true, since your journey is not to Cardiff at all.

As has been said elsewhere, there is added confusion due to there being several Club 55 schemes in operation, all of which seem to eb slightly different. It seems to follow that the journey planners may not be able to interpret the various conditions correctly on all of the journey possibilities.

 

[chalkie99]

Small update - encouraged by extendedpauls's posts I e-mailed Arriva last Friday evening and had a standard response on Monday to say they would answer within 10 days! Nothing received yet so not exactly high speed service.

In the meantime, I took the Pontyclun to Birmingham service yesterday which is advertised as being via Cheltenham with Cross Country at £28.

The conductor said he had two options on his machine, the other being via Shrewsbury for £18. I wasn't aware of that and, on the spur of the moment, stuck to the Cheltenham option at £28.

Checking the website now I find I can specify "via Shrewsbury" on Club 55 and both services are Arriva, yet on the website the fare is still shown as £28.

Which is correct? The on board ticket machine at £18 or website at £28?

 

[firespire]

Checking the website now I find I can specify "via Shrewsbury" on Club 55 and both services are Arriva, yet on the website the fare is still shown as £28.

Which is correct? The on board ticket machine at £18 or website at £28?

Via Shrewsbury is £18.
Map- http://arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Club55NetworkMap/
Only when you go onto the different coloured add on areas should you pay extra.

 

[extendedpaul]

If you go from Pontyclun to Birmingham via Shrewsbury the whole journey is with Arriva so the Club 55 return costs £18. If you go to Cheltenham with Arriva and then on to Birmingham with Cross Country you will pay the £10 supplement making £28 return.

As I read the map you cannot use Cross Country all the way from Cardiff to Birmingham, only from Cheltenham Spa.

 

[firespire]

As I read the map you cannot use Cross Country all the way from Cardiff to Birmingham, only from Cheltenham Spa.

Travel within the Arriva Trains Wales Network can be on other operators -

Club 55 tickets can be used on the services of other train operators within the Arriva Trains Wales network for line of route travel only using the following operators: First Great Western, Cross Country, London Midland, Virgin Trains between North Wales and Crewe.

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Club55TermsConditions/

 

[extendedpaul]

There is clearly a lot of scope for confusion with this promotion. I read paragraph 4 of the terms and conditions as stating that Cross Country trains can only be used between Cheltenham and Birmingham but reading further in the same section there is a reference to "line of route travel" which indeed suggests otherwise.

Para 6 of the same T&C refers to "journeys" to Cardiff before 9.30am not being allowed but I was told by e-mail last year I could pass through Cardiff earlier. However the "when can I travel" condition on the headline page excludes trains arriving into Cardiff before 9.30am weekdays. Nobody has ever queried my earlier start.

Last week I travelled to Holyhead on the afternoon Premier service. I asked the guard the cost of an upgrade to first class with meal and was told £50 - too much for me. This led to a conversation with a couple opposite who had read on the website that an upgrade from Llandudno would cost £58 return, a figure I also definitely saw. At the ticket office they were quoted £98 each ! There were two Arriva staff (management) sitting nearby and the lady told this couple to send feedback/complain. The wording has since been changed to "from only £78 return", complete with mis-spelling "Premeir", if you go via the club 55 link- possibly a rapidly-made amendment !

 

[merlodlliw]

Why does it have to be so complicated,I am a train buff, not an anorak or station stalker, just prefer to travel by the good old rattler.

But why to the average person is travel made so complicated by train, I don't give a toss for Premier Class upgrades on Gerald the Wag, hopefully soon Gerald if he continues will follow Chiltern mainline twenty quid upgrade, Gerald was a poor imitation of W/S, but ATW Premier is out of reach of most travellers with only around three to four on a good day using Premier class, a waste of space in my opinion now Politicians have to upgrade at their own expense, but wont (well it was put on for WAG senior staff & A.Ms in the first place, most of use all know that)

Anyhow back to basics, ill go Wrexham to Marylebone & back for £35 rtn using the Loco hauled 67 mainline expresses from Brum,only downfall is the 158 overcrowded to Birmingham,but a 175 on the return using the Manchester via Wrexham service, a good price in my book with three of the four trains decent 2X 67 & the 175,

Bob

 

[extendedpaul]

I agree. I and at least two other passengers would have paid £25 to upgrade but not £50.

There were four passengers in first class that day (Tues last week)

I was quite surprised the Arriva staff were in standard though from what I could overhear only one was a manager and the other a new employee so possibly not eligible for first.

 

[chalkie99]

I'm still finding my way around this.

I think anyone reading the promotional guff would think that Birmingham (from South Wales) was only accessible via Cheltenham at £28 and would not realise the cheaper option via Shrewsbury. Indeed, the fare, from Pontyclun via Shrewsbury, still shows at £28 and you have to work out that a further search is needed to show slower trains, to bring up the Shrewsbury returns and £18 fare.

Even more oddly, the first option from Pontyclun via Cheltenham is 09.52 but I can go earlier if I specify via Cardiff which then gives me an Arriva to Newport and Cross Country from there.

Or (!) I can specify via Newport which allows Arriva 08.30 to Npt, then First Great Western to Bristol Parkway and then Cross Country to Birmingham. Just as quick as the later 2 train option.

However, it seems none of the trains I can board from Pontyclun can be boarded at Cardiff even though they are Arriva at that point.

 

[chalkie99]

Bit of an update :roll:

I mailed Arriva on Sept 30th and have just received their reply! Actually, only a reply to part of the question but at least some progress.

Their e-mail states:

The Club 55 09:30 time restriction on services arriving into Cardiff, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool only applies if this is your final destination. If you are changing trains at any of these stations before 09:30 the restriction does not apply.

So it seems consistent with what extendedpaul was told last year.

They really do need a bit of a re=write for next time I think.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[Greenback]

The clarification is good, but I hope they put it into the publcity itself next time. They could save themselves a lot of time and trouble answering the same query over and over again!