"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[Greenback]

...and how come do other countries manage to run trains on time without a similarly stupid system?

Do they? I've been on trains in France, Italy and Spain where the doors have closed and locked before the platfrom clock has reahced the official departure time.

Perhaps they difference is that they don't inform the passengers that this happens?

 

[pendolino]

...and how come do other countries manage to run trains on time without a similarly stupid system?

[citation needed]

 

[michael769]

At busy stations there is always someone who is running for the train, and who will get in a strop if you don't let them on and they miss it.

It's human nature. They are obviously more important than the hundred or so passengers whose journey will be delayed by their inability to get to the station in time.

 

[Mojo]

Pendolinos take ages to get dispatched - 1 Min does not seem unreasonable in these cases! At Birmingham New Street the posters say doors close 30 Sec before, except Pendolinos which close 40 Sec before. Even so I rarely see a Pendolino depart exactly on time.

One of the advantages of DOO is that the doors can be closed a shorter time before departure. When I used to live in Aylesbury the doors would be closed anywhere between 10 and 7 Sec prior to departure and the train would usually depart bang on time.

 

[BRX]

How are the train companies not sticking to the timetable? The timetable shows departure times!

As has been said before on this subject, you can't turn up at 1428 and expect to board a Stena ferry which is due to leave at 1430. You cna;t arrive at an airport three minutes before the flight leaves and expect to get on either.

That's because the procedure involved in boarding a ferry or plane is more complicated than boarding a train.

Also, a ferry or plane timetable will state a latest check-in time. A rail timetable doesn't. You just have to guess what policy a particular station might have.

 

[WestCoast]

Also, a ferry or plane timetable will state a latest check-in time. A rail timetable doesn't. You just have to guess what policy a particular station might have.

True. There is always an cut-off time with flights for check-in and if you check in online you are told the time the gate closes (which is often earlier than in reality).

To be honest, I think if there was a more standard rule for train door closures then this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[Greenback]

If the delay attribution regime was less strict, then TOCs may be willing to hold a train for a minimal amount of time for passengers to board from a key late running connecting service. NOT for people who are just generally running late, but for those who are running late because of the railway.

This is the system used in some parts of mainland Europe, and to an extent it is more user friendly. However, with the current delay attribution regime it isn't going to happen often in Britain.

You have a point, but the essential question for the OP is why we don;t amend the timetables to reflect the fact that passengers should be on the platform, ready, a minute before the train actually leaves.

I am against this, personally, because timetables for all forms of transport show departure times, not 'check in' or 'report by' times. I would not like to move away from this, for one thing it would have the effect of artificially increasing journey times further.

 

[michael769]

That's because the procedure involved in boarding a ferry or plane is more complicated than boarding a train.

The less complex procedure is why the cut off is as short as 30-secs (much better than a plane or ferry), but less complex or not the dispatch procedure still exists - and it still takes a little time.

Seriously if they changed the timetable so that the posted time was (say) 1 minute before the real departure so that they shut the doors bang on time people would just complain that the train was always late.

 

[Mike395]

That's because the procedure involved in boarding a ferry or plane is more complicated than boarding a train.

Also, a ferry or plane timetable will state a latest check-in time. A rail timetable doesn't. You just have to guess what policy a particular station might have.

So you are you saying you'd expect to be able to get on a tran at 11:29:59 if a service is advertised as a 1130 departure? You're pushing it anyway in that case - it is the passenger's responsibility to get to the station in good time - at least 10 minutes before departure if buying a ticket IMO (I am of the opinion that if the ticket office queue is more than 10mins long, you should be able to get your ticket on the train, and every guard I have come across in that situation has been happy to do so)

It is perfectly reasonable for doors to close 30-40 seconds before departure.

 

[175001]

People wait for trains, trains don't wait for people! Simple as!

When doing my doors, I always think of those who have made it in good time to board a service when using my discretion. The problem with waiting for one or two stragglers is, that once one sees it happening, another will follow, and by the end of it all, you'll see a stream of others following them towards my local door, which delays the departure.

 

[Greenback]

That's because the procedure involved in boarding a ferry or plane is more complicated than boarding a train.

Also, a ferry or plane timetable will state a latest check-in time. A rail timetable doesn't. You just have to guess what policy a particular station might have.

My point is that people do not expect to do it, regarldess of the reason why, and the vast majority of people have no problem in working out that if their train is due to depart at 1705, if they get to the platform a minute or so before, they will catch it, if they don't they might not.

I really don't see what the problem is here. Of all the things that are wrong with our railway system, this seems a pointless thing to want to change.

 

[radamfi]

Do they? I've been on trains in France, Italy and Spain where the doors have closed and locked before the platfrom clock has reahced the official departure time.

Perhaps they difference is that they don't inform the passengers that this happens?

Is that routine in France? Never experienced it myself, although I haven't travelled in France much in recent years. They do some connections so it wouldn't make much sense. Certainly not done in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. These places are very connection orientated. I suppose you could say that the doors would be shut early as long as all connections have arrived a long time ago so everyone has had plenty of time to get between trains.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I for one fully support doors closing a reasonable time before departure, be that five / ten seconds on local trains to 1-2 minutes on InterCity ones.

 

[WestCoast]

I am against this, personally, because timetables for all forms of transport show departure times, not 'check in' or 'report by' times. I would not like to move away from this, for one thing it would have the effect of artificially increasing journey times further.

I am not too bothered about this rule but perhaps more publicity of the rule (depending on station) would satisfy the OPs grievances?

When you book the ticket the journey planner says, "Warning! At this station train doors will close up to 30/40/60/120 seconds prior to the stated departure time". This would be repeated on PIS, occasional announcements and on posters (as is done now).

 

[table38]

These advance door-closing times aren't even consistent across different stations...

Or even at the same station

However the situation on the trains is vastly preferable to my local bus service which regulaly departs about 5 minutes early.

This means if you arrive at the bus stop on time and no bus turns up, you can't be sure if it had left already, or was cancelled. The only solution is to be at the stop about 10 minutes early!

</rant>

 

[Greenback]

Is that routine in France? Never experienced it myself, although I haven't travelled in France much in recent years. They do some connections so it wouldn't make much sense. Certainly not done in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. These places are very connection orientated. I suppose you could say that the doors would be shut early as long as all connections have arrived a long time ago so everyone has had plenty of time to get between trains.

I don't know if it is routine as I haven't travelled enough there to make such a statement - I've certainly seen it happen at Gare du Nord and at Monaco Monte Carlo.

I also spent a pleasant morning watching the trains at Barcelona Sants, as well as travelling on one or two, and it seemed common practice on that particular day. I was going by what was on the platform boards and the timetable displays which did agree with each other.

 

[WestCoast]

Is that routine in France? Never experienced it myself, although I haven't travelled in France much in recent years. They do some connections so it wouldn't make much sense. Certainly not done in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. These places are very connection orientated. I suppose you could say that the doors would be shut early as long as all connections have arrived a long time ago so everyone has had plenty of time to get between trains.

This is a concern of mine, all stations have a minimum connection time. If trains are inaccessible up to 2 minutes before their stated departure time, isn't the usefulness and accuracy of the minimum connection time eroded?

For example, Mr Bloggs thinks he has a 7 minutes connection time, which meets the minimum requirements for a certain station. If the train doors close 2 minutes before, then he only has a 5 minutes connection time, which may not be enough, especially if his train is running a few minutes late and he has to cross the station. It's probably a slightly contrived example (since most stations are not 2 minutes before for closing), but you get the idea.

 

[ChampsRacing]

With swt our policy is 30 seconds before except at waterloo its 45 seconds before because people have a habbit of holding open doors. I have worked with the 30 seconds before departure rule for 5 years now and i very rarely get any complaints only from the people who came last minute and wondered why they have missed it.

 

[chrisg]

Interesting, although I don't think the comparisons with the ferry or air travel are valid, as they have clearly stated check-in times.

I am generally in favour of the doors closing before departure time, however it must be frustrating for people who don't travel on the railways very often and might get caught out by it.

 

[snail]

This is a concern of mine, all stations have a minimum connection time. If trains are inaccessible up to 2 minutes before their stated departure time, isn't the usefulness and accuracy of the minimum connection time eroded?

No, because the minimum connection time should take this into account. Official timings are usually pretty generous.

 

[Greenback]

With swt our policy is 30 seconds before except at waterloo its 45 seconds before because people have a habbit of holding open doors. I have worked with the 30 seconds before departure rule for 5 years now and i very rarely get any complaints only from the people who came last minute and wondered why they have missed it.

Indeed, the policy of closing train doors in advance of departure came in with central door locking. It wa snecessary in order to ensure that doors were locked and secured before the signal could be given to start the train.

It's not a new policy, and, frankly, if anyone expects to be able to arrive at almost all types of transport between 0 and 30 seconds of its departure, and to get on, then the expectations are wholly unrealistic.

 

[Geezertronic]

Also, a ferry or plane timetable will state a latest check-in time. A rail timetable doesn't. You just have to guess what policy a particular station might have.

Surely that's a contradiction? A ferry or plane may state latest check-in time, what is the difference between that and the 30sec-2min rule for trains depending on what type of train it is?

I know for sure that at Euston as an example when the VT trains run 3-4 mins apart, if the first one doesn't depart on time then that delays the others behind it. Is that fair?

 

[Greenback]

Interesting, although I don't think the comparisons with the ferry or air travel are valid, as they have clearly stated check-in times.

I am generally in favour of the doors closing before departure time, however it must be frustrating for people who don't travel on the railways very often and might get caught out by it.

They are valid, as you don't always* have the check in time clearly stated on the timetable or the website, but common sense tells you not to get there a few minutes beforehand.

* Last time I used them, Brittany Ferries displayed no check in times on their timetable pages. Vehicle check in times were displayed on their route pages, but foot passengers had to search for any relevant info

 

[londonbridge]

Or even at the same station

However the situation on the trains is vastly preferable to my local bus service which regulaly departs about 5 minutes early.

This means if you arrive at the bus stop on time and no bus turns up, you can't be sure if it had left already, or was cancelled. The only solution is to be at the stop about 10 minutes early!

</rant>

From East Croydon station I can run to the stop needed to get my bus home in roughly two minutes. If I arrive at East Croydon five minutes before the bus is due and run to the stop,only to see the bus pulling away four minutes early,am I right to be annoyed?

 

[BRX]

So you are you saying you'd expect to be able to get on a tran at 11:29:59 if a service is advertised as a 1130 departure?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

For an 1130 departure I think it's reasonable to expect to be able to turn up (at the platform) at 11.29.03 or 11.29.35. The point is, that depending on the train or the station, I may or may not be able to get on the train, and I have no way of knowing this in advance.

To be clear - this is a separate issue from me aiming to turn up at 11.29.35, and then missing the train because I get delayed by 30 seconds on the way there. That's a risk that I decide to take and it's my problem if I miss the train as a result. I don't expect the train to be held for me if I am running towards it at 11.29.59.

To repeat my earlier question, what is the downside of simply advertising the doors-closed time on the timetable? It would reduce confusion, and surely make things better for despatch staff too, because there is then no argument with passengers if they turn up after the advertised time (as opposed to turning up before the advertised time, and then being told that actually they are too late).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely that's a contradiction? A ferry or plane may state latest check-in time, what is the difference between that and the 30sec-2min rule for trains depending on what type of train it is?

The difference is that you don't know the rule for your train until you turn up at the station.

I know for sure that at Euston as an example when the VT trains run 3-4 mins apart, if the first one doesn't depart on time then that delays the others behind it. Is that fair?

That is of no relevance to what we're talking about here. My suggestion that doors-closed times are what is advertised would not make any trains run later. In fact I suspect it would improve punctuality for the reasons I've mentioned above.

 

[Greenback]

I do agree with advertising the fact that doors close before departure in timetables. This should be stated in bold on the first page, with a big illustration of a clock.

I don't agree that the times within that timetable should be amended away from showing the actual departure time fo that train from each station.

The timetable text should state up to two minutes before departure. It would be impractical to show a rule for every service ate very station.

 

[wessex]

common sense says to get to the station a few minutes before the departure time

 

[WestCoast]

I do agree with advertising the fact that doors close before departure in timetables. This should be stated in bold on the first page, with a big illustration of a clock.

As stated I'd advertise this everywhere: timetables, journey planners (with specific information), PIS and occasional announcements.

 

[BRX]

They are valid, as you don't always* have the check in time clearly stated on the timetable or the website, but common sense tells you not to get there a few minutes beforehand.

Let's agree that "common sense" tells you that you should get to the platform 4 minutes before advertised departure time and it's not necessary to be there any earlier than that

This is taking into account that the doors might be closed 2 minutes early.

Therefore, we are agreeing that arriving 2 minutes before door closing time is ok.

Therefore we are agreeing that arriving more than 2 minutes before door closing time is earlier than necessary.

If you turn up 4 minutes before the advertised departure time, and it turns out that the doors are closed 15 seconds before departure, your "common sense" rule means that you're there 1:45 earlier than we've agreed is necessary.

Therefore, your "common sense" rule by definition means that people have to turn up earlier than necessary for many trains.

Which is why advertising the doors-closed time is more logical, would waste less of people's time, and would have no deleterious effect on train punctuality. So why not adopt that system?

 

[Geezertronic]

That is of no relevance to what we're talking about here. My suggestion that doors-closed times are what is advertised would not make any trains run later. In fact I suspect it would improve punctuality for the reasons I've mentioned above.

I doubt it would, and you'll always get someone who thinks they have a god given right to board before the train has departed just like the people who have missed their check-in time at the airport