Bolton - Salford Crescent Electrification.

[Inox]

Hi

I think it's in the very early stages of consideration by those who consider such matters, but if they're thinking about electrification between Manchester Vic and Euxton what are they going to do about the Farnworth tunnel?

I'm assuming that they'll go for overheads, rather than 3rd rail?

any opinions?

I've always wondered why the tunnel's actually still there. I know the triple 6 runs over it, but why not just have a cutting and a bridge.

Obviously I'm not ignorant that it'll cost a shed load to be done with it, but I wonder what engineers will do if they do decide to plum for electrification on that line (3rd rail? hmm)

 

[Lampshade]

They'll most likely lower the track to fit the OHLE in.

 

[Eagle]

Solid overhead rail, I'd assume. It's fairly standard for tunnels on OHLE routes.

 

[Inox]

aye. I wasn't sure about clearance above you see. I assume pantos can either be fully up or fully down with a bit of springy springy for deviation compensation. I think the smaller tunnel on the down is a complete bore so digging down would affect the tunnel itself maybe.

I wasn't aware that over head rails existed. I do now.

I was just thinking out loud.

cheers!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi

I've always wondered why the tunnel's actually still there. I know the triple 6 runs over it, but why not just have a cutting and a bridge.

I might as well make some use of my interest in the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway here. The original tunnel was built by the Manchester, Bolton and Bury Railway (part of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway from 1846). Originally, it was planned that a deep cutting would be made in the area, but the decision was made to change the plans and to construct the tunnel. Remember that a canal was originally envisaged in that area and some of the existing stone line overbridges are of the type seen over canals, to allow the horse to change from one side of the canal to the other.

In 1880, when works were required to carry out lining repairs, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway decided not to enlarge the existing double-track tunnel, but to build a second tunnel alongside the original one. As the decision had been taken to make both of these tunnels single track use only, the bore on the newer tunnel is much smaller than the original tunnel.

So the situation is at present is that the original tunnel is about 170 years old and the second tunnel is 130 years old. I am sure that the infrastructure planners will have all the necessary information at hand to plan for the electrification of the line through both of these two tunnels.

 

[Toots]

Obviously I'm not ignorant that it'll cost a shed load to be done with it, but I wonder what engineers will do if they do decide to plum for electrification on that line (3rd rail? hmm)

It is very unlikely there will ever be a third rail system built again.As you say there is the initial cost,but there is also the problems of maintenance,accessibility and compatibility with the rest of the network.The possibility of this scheme being considered for third rail are not even remote.The only time third rail will be a first option will be if Merseyrail extends to say,Preston or Wigan, or perhaps one of the London suburban networks extending it's network,but a stand alone third rail scheme would not be seriously considered anymore.

 

[ole man]

The lowest height that OHLE can be on the uk railway is 4100m from rail, only in exceptional places can it be lower than that, i knew of only one place in the uk that it was lower and that was between Kentish Town and Moorgate where it was 3900m.
It will also be a question of electrical clearance, and uplift,when a train go's through the ole bounce's the faster the speed the more it bounce's.
You always have to a minimum electrical clearance of 600mm from any LIVE part of the ole to any earthed section (ie tunnel walls,ceiling).
So it depends on how high the tunnel is,that will determine if the track needs lowering,etc

 

[Eagle]

It is very unlikely there will ever be a third rail system built again.

I'd say that the remaining unelectrified gaps in the Southern Region (North Downs, Marshlink, Oxted, Salisbury etc...) are actually quite likely to get third rail in the near future. But definitely never north of London.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd say that the remaining unelectrified gaps in the Southern Region (North Downs, Marshlink, Oxted, Salisbury etc...) are actually quite likely to get third rail in the near future. But definitely never north of London.

Well they might do Aylesbury in third rail since its already in place for a large part of the route, but you never know, especially with whats going to happen with the Chiltern Main Line.

 

[The Snap]

Lowering the track would be the sensible thing to do. Obviously you can only drop it to an extent as you'll hit the bore after a few metres (depending on diameter). I would imagine a mix of track lowering and tight-to-the-top OLE will be the solution...

 

[Nym]

It's also only a 50 limit in the tunnels anyway, so limited clearance OHLE shouldn't be too much of a problem...

 

[Lampshade]

But definitely never north of London.

Possible Merseyrail extensions?

 

[Nym]

You mean the sensible ones...

Omskirk - Preston
Kirby - Wigan Wallgate
Southport - Wigan Wallgate

Then OHLE from Wigan Wallgate to Lostock and Salford West via Walkden?

Oh, and dual electrification between Liverpool S Parkway and Hunts Cross with OHLE onto Trafford Park?

 

[Lampshade]

You mean the sensible ones...

Omskirk - Preston
Kirby - Wigan Wallgate
Southport - Wigan Wallgate

Ormskirk - Preston and Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate are no brainers, but would you really transfer Southport - Wigan Wallgate to Merseyrail?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

....but would you really transfer Southport - Wigan Wallgate to Merseyrail?

This point came up when the Skelmersdale thread was running, with some very definite views expressed on the matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You mean the sensible ones...

Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate

How would TfGM react to Merseyrail running over their area from Orrel to Wigan Wallgate. As far as I know, there is no third rail electric services now running in Greater Manchester. The Kirkby - Manchester Victoria service is a single direct service at present, whereas the plan proposed would entail a journey change.

 

[Barrett M95]

The lowest height that OHLE can be on the uk railway is 4100m from rail, only in exceptional places can it be lower than that, i knew of only one place in the uk that it was lower and that was between Kentish Town and Moorgate where it was 3900m.
It will also be a question of electrical clearance, and uplift,when a train go's through the ole bounce's the faster the speed the more it bounce's.
You always have to a minimum electrical clearance of 600mm from any LIVE part of the ole to any earthed section (ie tunnel walls,ceiling).
So it depends on how high the tunnel is,that will determine if the track needs lowering,etc

Odd isn't it that 600mm is required between live OLE and earthed structure, yet on the train, only 200mm is required (170mm on some trains) between the live pan frame and the train roof. Mind you - that said - flashovers do occur!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The lowest height that OHLE can be on the uk railway is 4100m from rail, only in exceptional places can it be lower than that, i knew of only one place in the uk that it was lower and that was between Kentish Town and Moorgate where it was 3900m.

Do you mean 4100mm and 3900mm in your statement above? The metre distances make for some very interesting visions.

 

[Nym]

This point came up when the Skelmersdale thread was running, with some very definite views expressed on the matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



How would TfGM react to Merseyrail running over their area from Orrel to Wigan Wallgate. As far as I know, there is no third rail electric services now running in Greater Manchester. The Kirkby - Manchester Victoria service is a single direct service at present, whereas the plan proposed would entail a journey change.

Through services, shared between the franchises, but if the idiots in Piccadilly Place decide they don't want a better service by having them run through from Liverpool Central onto Victoria then the sensible place to terminate everything would be at Wigan Wallgate.

Allong the same lines of Southern / FCC shared services at the moment, shared stock, operated by Merseyrail until Kirby then Northern into Victoria / Stalybridge. Or just operated all by Northern under provision unto Merseyrail similar to the 'City' Lines.
Political convenience shouldn't get in the way of service developments.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The Kirkby - Manchester Victoria service is a single direct service at present, whereas the plan proposed would entail a journey change.

Really? Why couldn't they keep Kirkby-Victoria as now, and extend two Kirkby-Liverpool trains an hour to Wallgate?

 

[HSTEd]

Wait, isnt Victoria going to be wired at 25kV, I dont support the wiring will go anywhere near Kirkby will it? then you could run through services using dual voltage units.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wait, isnt Victoria going to be wired at 25kV, I dont support the wiring will go anywhere near Kirkby will it? then you could run through services using dual voltage units.

Nope, the closest it is planned to get is Lostock Jn, where the OHLE will carry on west to Preston, and the unelectrified Wallgate line heads off south west.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Through services, shared between the franchises, but if the idiots in Piccadilly Place decide they don't want a better service by having them run through from Liverpool Central onto Victoria then the sensible place to terminate everything would be at Wigan Wallgate. Political convenience shouldn't get in the way of service developments.

Have either TfGM or Merseytravel ever made a statement on the extension of the Merseyrail electric system from either Southport or from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate and would the existing bay platforms at Wigan Wallgate be used for these terminating services, if this were to happen?

I cannot comment personally upon your view of "political convenience", but have a feeling that finance from Government sources is somewhat involved, but other forum members will be better able to make comment on this point.

 

[HSTEd]

I make it just over 10km by the rail ine between Wigan Wallgate and Lostock Junction (well the platforms at Lostock station to be precise but no matter).
Would it be impossible for either the third rail to be extended to Lostock and have trains switchover there or extend the OHLE to Wigan and switchover in Wallgate platform?
The Latter has the advantage of requiring less signalling work immediately west of the line to immunise the signalling system against both AC and DC traction leakage currents.

 

[Nym]

Well if electrifications where being extended, IMO, the logical changeover point from AC to DC is Wallgate's platforms, everything to the West being DC and everything to the east being AC, provides the minimal amount of dual running, and the maximum amount of diversionary routes, and new curves on merseyrail etc.

eg.

Hazel Gr - Preston diverted via Wigan NW if Chorley has issues etc.

If it where completed and dual voltage stock provided thats a lot more diesel paths through bolton converted to electric, even more if you turn the Atherton loop into a Wallgate - Vic service and send both Southports and the Kirby via Bolton. would leave just 2tph as Diesel (Manc - Lakes, Manc - Clitheroe) and 6tph as Electric (Vic - Southport, Airport - Southport, Vic - Kirby, Vic - Blackpool, Hazel Gr - Preston, Aiport - Blackpool)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder what would be the total line conversion costs of 3rd rail electrification be of:-

Southport - Wigan Wallgate (The line past Meols Cop to Appley Bridge falls in the Lancashire County Council area - will they be expected to contribute?)

Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate (As above, parts of the line from Kirkby on both sides of Rainford, then through Upholland are in the Lancashire County Council area)

How many extra Merseyrail units would be required to service these two routes and who would have to provide the finance to purchase these? Does any contingency funding exist that is ring-fenced for future expansion of the Merseyrail network?

On the matter of line infrastructure, would the Upholland tunnel (877 metres) pose any particular problems with regard to 3rd rail electrification? It is in a somewhat exposed situation, not unlike the Bramhope tunnel on the Leeds-Harrogate line. If you recall, that tunnel came into thread discussion during the Harrogate Chamber of Commerce plan for the use of London Underground units and comment was made by experienced line engineers on the forum with regard to problems with water seepage, etc.

 

[tbtc]

Political convenience shouldn't get in the way of service developments.

Precisely!

Hence my rants about certain areas/services where trains have been diverted to suit politicians rather than where people actually want to go (WAG Express etc).

Not sure why you'd ever consider Third Rail for Southport - Wigan - thats a no brainer for overhead wiring to me.

 

[driver9000]

The lowest height that OHLE can be on the uk railway is 4100m from rail, only in exceptional places can it be lower than that, i knew of only one place in the uk that it was lower and that was between Kentish Town and Moorgate where it was 3900m.

I wonder what the height under Fishergate bridge at the north end of platform 3 in Preston station is? I was told it is reputed to be the lowest bridge that carries overhead wires under it on the network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's also only a 50 limit in the tunnels anyway, so limited clearance OHLE shouldn't be too much of a problem...

75mph on the Up line and 50mph on the Down line (narrow bore).

 

[Nym]

Precisely!

Hence my rants about certain areas/services where trains have been diverted to suit politicians rather than where people actually want to go (WAG Express etc).

Not sure why you'd ever consider Third Rail for Southport - Wigan - thats a no brainer for overhead wiring to me.

Yes, it would be for me too, but the Burscough curves might mean Liverpool - Omskirk - Southport, and Liverpool - Omskirk - Wigan services, hence my leaning toward 3rd rail, as well as keeping a single pinch point of changeover on the platforms at Wallgate.

So one could invisage nothing terminating at Omskirk with 1tph to Southport, 1tph to Wigan and 2tph to Preston, or a mix of the above. Potentially with more services from Preston to Southport.

Combined with some OHLE it would mean the three services into Wallgate from Lostock (Bolton) provided OHLE was provided from Lostock to Wallgate, and 3rd Rail from Wallgate to all the above, that these 3tph would consist of..

2tph to Southport (1 from Airport, 1 from Victoria)
1tph to Kirkby

There is also the idea of additional services to Wigan from Victoria via Paitcroft, these could travel into Wallgate and on to Kirby, though to Liverpool Central using 4 car dual voltage stock. Or on to Southport. Both changing from OHLE to 3rd Rail at Wigan Wallgate, with any extras terminating in the 'North' facing bay at Wallgate, electrified at 3rd rail.

Yes I know I'm cutting off the Atherton Loop from the rest of the world, but...

If the electrification was provided as above, then it would mean that a lot less diesel diagrams would be kicking about, in fact, only the Atherton Loop and Blackburn line would be left.

75mph on the Up line and 50mph on the Down line (narrow bore).

Yep, I know, thought it was just the narrow bore we where refering to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to correct any misapprensions, I do not support Merseyrail 3rd rail electrification extensions into Greater Manchester in any way whatsoever. All I was doing was asking financial and operational questions based upon previous postings, to aid the current debate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I know I'm cutting off the Atherton Loop from the rest of the world, but..

Have National Rail any forward plans with regard to the future possibilities of the Atherton line, once the Lancashire Triangle has been electrified. There seems to have been much discussion on the line from Lostock to Wigan as a route for future analysis (which will not be part of any mid-term electification proposal... if not long-term), whereas the line from Salford Crescent to Crow Nest Junction and onwards to Wigan is hardly deemed worthy of anything more than an afterthought.

 

[ole man]

Do you mean 4100mm and 3900mm in your statement above? The metre distances make for some very interesting visions.

Oh yes MM's, forgive my obvious mistake