Northern Rail

[Eric]

Does anyone know why Northern Rail just seem to throw any class of train together to either make the service the necessary-required length or to strengthen a service?

Today I've been on a six car Leeds-York Northern service made up two 153s, one 155 and a 142 and a Wakefield-Huddersfield Northern service made up of a 155-142 combination.

 

[OxtedL]

Can you think of a good reason why not to do this?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Advantage of all trains being compatiable just bang what you can out and hope for the best

I am aware its not like that.

 

[driver9000]

Would you rather Northern started short forming trains simply because 2 units of the same class aren't together? Northern has a mixed fleet and its inevitable that different types will end up together in multiple.

 

[Yew]

Where the sprinters full, and the pacer empty?

 

[RAPC]

Would you rather Northern started short forming trains simply because 2 units of the same class aren't together? Northern has a mixed fleet and its inevitable that different types will end up together in multiple.

Exactly - give me a seat on a pic n' mix service over standing on a short formed train any day.

 

[scotsman]

It might not suit people who like things uniform, but it's functional - and that's all that matters really!

 

[Anvil1984]

What time was the 6 car Leeds - York service, I am aware of a 5 car service this evening which consisted of 155+153+142 which was on the heavily delayed 1745 Man Vic to York service but that was cancelled and restarted at Leeds with just a 2 car unit.

The 142 was originally just going to Rochdale but failed with an air leak so the 155+153 on the York service had to assist and ended up taking it all the way in service to Leeds but then to Neville Hill. The service was 78 minutes late at Leeds and terminated

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Does anyone know why Northern Rail just seem to throw any class of train together to either make the service the necessary-required length or to strengthen a service?....

To a certain extent there are maintenance requirements that decide which units work which services (exams every so many miles for example), but also there is a question of what units are available for service at the start of the day and any failures or delays that might have occured during the day. When you run as many services as Northern do, over the area Northern do, and with the number and mix of units Northern have, these things will happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When all the currently proposed plans for certain Northern units to be sent elsewhere and other units from other areas come to Northern actually happens, will this mean that Northern will have an even worse set of units with which to operate its services? If so, which part of the Northern franchaise will fare the worst when this happens?

 

[northwichcat]

When all the currently proposed plans for certain Northern units to be sent elsewhere and other units from other areas come to Northern actually happens, will this mean that Northern will have an even worse set of units with which to operate its services? If so, which part of the Northern franchaise will fare the worst when this happens?

Apparently 6 x 156s used in single formation on Lime Street to Victoria/Oxford Rd/Wigan/Blackpool services will be replaced by pairs of 142 or 142+150 combinations from December. This will leave 2x156s to pair up with 150s to replace the current 180 diagrams and 4x156s to cascade to EMT.

Overall I think the worse and best areas for rolling stock will be the same with Leeds and Hull remaining the best and numerous other places left with endless 142s and 150s.

 

[tbtc]

When all the currently proposed plans for certain Northern units to be sent elsewhere and other units from other areas come to Northern actually happens, will this mean that Northern will have an even worse set of units with which to operate its services? If so, which part of the Northern franchaise will fare the worst when this happens?

I think that this really deserves a separate thread (or discussion on one of the "cascade" threads which we have had in recent months) to avoid "thread creep", but I would imagine that any improvements/ setbacks will be confined to the Lancashire area, since that is where all the stock changes are (no 156/180s etc on this side of the Pennines).

What time was the 6 car Leeds - York service, I am aware of a 5 car service this evening which consisted of 155+153+142 which was on the heavily delayed 1745 Man Vic to York service but that was cancelled and restarted at Leeds with just a 2 car unit.

The 142 was originally just going to Rochdale but failed with an air leak so the 155+153 on the York service had to assist and ended up taking it all the way in service to Leeds but then to Neville Hill. The service was 78 minutes late at Leeds and terminated

As usual, when we get information from those in the industry who know what's going on, a "strange" working is explained as a competent operator working their hardest to maintain some service despite setbacks (and a poor set of DMUs) - e.g. running the failed 142 as part of another service to get it out of the way.

Thanks.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, there is usally a reasonable and sensible explanation for things that may seem out of the ordinary at first.

I don't see a problem in running different units together in any case, as long as they are compatible of course!

 

[anthony263]

ATW do regulary run some services on the cardiff valley lines using a class 142 or 143 attached to a class 150

 

[northwichcat]

One morning Northern used a 142+150+156 combination in lieu of a 156+156 combination that was on a PTE sponsored service. There were two possible reasons for this:
1. If Northern had used a 156+150 they wouldn't have provided the level of strengthening required so would lose part of their subsidy for that day.
2. The middle unit had a fault and it was easier to attach another unit and deal with the fault at the end of the peak hours than muck around switching units at peak times.

2 was probably the most likely

 

[Greenback]

Indeed they do Anthony, with the only downside being the lack of corridor connections on the Pacers!

 

[northwichcat]

ATW do regulary run some services on the cardiff valley lines using a class 142 or 143 attached to a class 150

Replace 143 with 144 in that sentence and the same applies on Northern routes.

 

[Nym]

does raise a question, if pacers only need be withdrawn for DDA requirements, how about only ever using them to strengthen other services operated by 150, 153, 155 or 156 units that will be DDA complient?

 

[northwichcat]

does raise a question, if pacers only need be withdrawn for DDA requirements, how about only ever using them to strengthen other services operated by 150, 153, 155 or 156 units that will be DDA complient?

Well firstly, 142s will be life expired before DDA kicks in so the DDA compliance is not the only issue.

However, in answer to your question I think it would depend on the length of the train. It has already been declared that a non-complaint HST can not have a single complaint vehicle added to it to make it complaint. However, it may make a difference to have a 4 car unit where half of it is complaint but if it was you wouldn't be able to lock the complaint train out-of-use for part of the journey because platform lengths.

The 156s and 158s are set to undergo alterations to make them compliant over the next few years. The 153s are to be reviewed as being single carriage trains they may prove too expensive to make complaint in their current form but possibly reforming them in to 155s could solve that problem.

It's been all quiet on the 150 DDA compliance issue. I imagine the former FNW 150s (which have been made partially complaint already) will have new door controls and internal and external LED destination displays added to them and be allowed to continue in service but the non refurbished ones may prove too costly to do given their likely expiry date.

 

[WatcherZero]

The rules set out requirements for disabled spaces and toilets based on carriage count that get more leniant as trains get longer, while on long trains it may be possible to get away with having non-converted coaches it would be impossible for something 6, 4 or less coachs long.

 

[Nym]

Before we go even more off topic, isn't it a requrement being able to use the unit without the assistance of staff? I'd love to know how that works on the likes of a 185

 

[Eric]

Before we go even more off topic, isn't it a requrement being able to use the unit without the assistance of staff? I'd love to know how that works on the likes of a 185

What about the loss of revenue when using a 150/142 or 155/142 combo?

 

[northwichcat]

Before we go even more off topic, isn't it a requrement being able to use the unit without the assistance of staff? I'd love to know how that works on the likes of a 185

Assuming you're referring to a wheelchair passenger a member of staff can set up a ramp for a wheelchair passenger to board using. However, the ramp and train combination must be suitable for all platforms, not some platforms like the Pacer/extended ramp combination.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about the loss of revenue when using a 150/142 or 155/142 combo?

Really a 4 car unit should have an additional ticket inspector anyway as one person can't be expected to cover a pair of 150/2s or 156s and actually ensure most people have a tickets, unless there are very long gaps between stations.

 

[Anvil1984]

What about the loss of revenue when using a 150/142 or 155/142 combo?

Even with a 2 x 150 combo then you dont always have a corridor connection, also what about the loss in revenue of running just the 155/150 instead of 150/155+142 when passengers can't get on the train and put in compensation claims for that plus the delay minutes as passengers try to squeeze off then the fines for short forming from thr PTEs. Theres only a finite number of sets you can use.

You also try to make out that its just a Northern Rail issue, simply put it isnt. TPE run double 185s, XC run double Voyagers, Scotrail run 170+158. London Midland run 170+153, ATW run same combos as Northern, need I continue. And not all the time are there any additional members of revenue staff on those either.

And Im still trying to figure out which train you travelled on between Leeds and York which was made of that combination. As the only service fitting that description was terminated at Leeds instead of going through to York (2E49 1745 Man Vic to York). Also 2 coaches would not have been allowed to remain in service even if it did go across to York as Micklefield is very tight with 4 x 23 metre carriages never mind the alleged 4 x 23 metre + 2 x 15 metres

 

[krisk]

156/150/142

First Class, Second Class, Third Class

 

[northwichcat]

156/150/142

First Class, Second Class, Third Class

You mean:

Second Class, Third Class, Third World Class.

 

[IanXC]

You mean:

Second Class, Third Class, Third World Class.

Picture this collection:

158/156/150/142

First, Second, Third, Third World.




Just think of the platform lengths required tho :roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Picture this collection:

158/156/150/142

First, Second, Third, Third World.




Just think of the platform lengths required tho :roll:

Roughly 7 3/4 car platforms isn't that much (Pacers are about 17m long IIRC; the standard measurement is 20m). But as for a local route where every station has at least 175m platforms...

 

[northwichcat]

Roughly 7 3/4 car platforms isn't that much (Pacers are about 17m long IIRC; the standard measurement is 20m). But as for a local route where every station has at least 175m platforms...

Pacers are 15.5m. I thought they used 23m per car when marking out platforms so at some stations which in theory only have room for a 4 car unit, a 6 car 150 can actually stop there without any problems.

 

[driver9000]

I thought they used 23m per car when marking out platforms so at some stations which in theory only have room for a 4 car unit, a 6 car 150 can actually stop there without any problems.

They do use 23m lengths when working out stopping marks.

It is possible to have a 142+156 stop just past a 3 car board and be fully in the platform.

A 6 car 150 would be still be over length for stopping at a 4 car board placed for 23m bodies. A 6 car 150 comes in at 120m, a 4 car 156 is 92m.