London connection time and Euston departure boards

[RYS]

Hi all. Long one here so scroll to paragraph 4 if you want to skip my rant. I'm looking for a bit of advice (and a chance to let off steam!) about a couple of issues I had during a journey I made today. I had a 1st Advance Single from Royston (Herts) to Marston Green. The itinerary for this journey says you should change at Finsbury park and take the LU to Euston. I always prefer however to travel to King's Cross and then walk up the Euston Road, it seems quicker to me, is less hassle and I'm sure it must be a permitted route. Today I took a train from Royston which was supposed to get into KGX 20 minutes before the departure from EUS. I realise this is cutting it close but it's never been a problem before and I've timed it to be an 8 minute walk for me.

You can see where this is going I'm sure... My arrival into KGX was 10 minutes late but I moved as quickly as I could and got to EUS with 3 minutes to spare. To my horror I saw the train I wanted had already disappeared from the departure boards. The information desk refused to tell me which platform it was at and insisted it had already left (if it had, it had gone earlier than timetabled).

At the ticket office I was told I should have got an earlier train, that I should allow 45 minutes connection. I complained and the desk person went to their supervisor. I was then offered their "favour" of selling me an "excess fare" of only £18 so that I could travel in standard on the next train.

Ok rant over. So I want to know, what are people's thoughts on the following issues, and is it worth my time complaining to Virgin about them?

1. Shouldn't people be allowed to decide for themselves if they have enough time to run to the platform? Is the Euston departure board issue 'elf n safety gone mad? Is it acceptable for the info desk staff to lie to me about the train having left?

2. I'm not sure how this excess fare of £18 was arrived at. It was for a new ticket to MGN, standard class, including my 16-25 card discount. Nevertheless, it was only thanks to my own understanding of ticketing than I thought to ask how much a ticket just to Birmingham Intl would cost. The desk person looked this up and in the end I only had to pay £12.55 (Super Off Peak single, still on Virgin). So I nearly got overcharged because they didn't seem to agree that my original ticket was still valid from BHI-MGN. Surely an unacceptable lack of knowledge on the ticket office staff's part?

Finally I'd like to mention that I know in future I should allow longer to get from KGX-EUS, but 45 minutes is ridiculous and is clearly just the TOC's covering their backs. I'd also like to praise the Virgin Train Manager who let me travel First Class anyway after I gave him my sob story. He did somewhat restore my faith in Virgin Trains today. I have left specific timings out of this post as I wouldn't want to get him in trouble.

 

[All Line Rover]

Unless you leave at least 45 minutes for a connection, the TOC's aren't liable if you miss a train on an Advance ticket. It may seem a bit ridiculous, but unfortunately, that's the way it is. There is no point in complaining to Virgin about it, as you had absolutely no right to travel on a different train for free. To be honest, 20 minutes is pushing it anyway! (Taking into account the risk of a delayed train.)

Regarding point 1, I find it quite understandable that Virgin remove trains from the departure boards a few minutes before departure (3 minutes seems reasonable). People would run like mad otherwise!

 

[AlterEgo]

I was then offered their "favour" of selling me an "excess fare" of only £18 so that I could travel in standard on the next train.

That certainly is a favour as you ignored the advice of leaving 45 minutes. 20 minutes leaves absolutely no time for redundancy whatsoever. I am surprised Euston agreed to this, as they are usually very strict.

Shouldn't people be allowed to decide for themselves if they have enough time to run to the platform?

You should not run to a platform.

Is the Euston departure board issue 'elf n safety gone mad?

No, when you consider that people slip and trip and fall underneath trains. These types of incident, however rare, usually have tragic consequences.

Is it acceptable for the info desk staff to lie to me about the train having left?

The train had, to all intents and purposes, left. It was not possible for you to catch the train as the barriers would be closed.

I'm not sure how this excess fare of £18 was arrived at. It was for a new ticket to MGN, standard class, including my 16-25 card discount. Nevertheless, it was only thanks to my own understanding of ticketing than I thought to ask how much a ticket just to Birmingham Intl would cost. The desk person looked this up and in the end I only had to pay £12.55 (Super Off Peak single, still on Virgin). So I nearly got overcharged because they didn't seem to agree that my original ticket was still valid from BHI-MGN. Surely an unacceptable lack of knowledge on the ticket office staff's part?

They should have actually sold you a discounted (16-25) Off Peak Single between EUS-MGN of £28.40, not an excess. You were treated abundantly fairly in my view. An Advance ticket is not valid whatsoever after you miss your original booked train, so I am surprised they agreed with your assertion that the BHI-MGN part was valid.

I'd also like to praise the Virgin Train Manager who let me travel First Class anyway after I gave him my sob story. He did somewhat restore my faith in Virgin Trains today. I have left specific timings out of this post as I wouldn't want to get him in trouble.

I appreciate your concern and frustration - but in my view you actually got pretty good customer service throughout. The ticket office staff's 'lack of knowledge' was of benefit to you, not a penalty. You even got to sit in First Class although you only held a Standard Class ticket!

 

[RYS]

Where did the £10.40 reduction off the £28.40 come from? Is this just a random number they chose? I agree with most of your points, I know I didn't leave enough time, and I was pleased with the end result from the train manager. I still think people should be allowed to use their own brains in terms of getting to the platform.

As for 45 minutes - I don't feel I should have to waste time in my day standing around at stations, just in case the railway can't run my train on time. I know the rules are the rules though so I won't harp on about that.

 

[yorkie]

1. Shouldn't people be allowed to decide for themselves if they have enough time to run to the platform?

Yes - at your own risk.

Is the Euston departure board issue 'elf n safety gone mad?

Yes, but there's not much we can do about that, and I'm not sure whose decision it is (perhaps someone here will know) e.g. Network Rail or Virgin. If LM trains don't disappear so early, that suggests it may be Virgin.

Is it acceptable for the info desk staff to lie to me about the train having left?

No. What time was this? We can check if it departed early. (PM me if you like)

2. I'm not sure how this excess fare of £18 was arrived at. It was for a new ticket to MGN, standard class, including my 16-25 card discount. Nevertheless, it was only thanks to my own understanding of ticketing than I thought to ask how much a ticket just to Birmingham Intl would cost. The desk person looked this up and in the end I only had to pay £12.55 (Super Off Peak single, still on Virgin). So I nearly got overcharged because they didn't seem to agree that my original ticket was still valid from BHI-MGN. Surely an unacceptable lack of knowledge on the ticket office staff's part?

Did you have this ticket?

ROYSTON (HERTS) [RYS] to MARSTON GREEN [MGN]
FCS - ADVANCE 1ST VWC
00452 - +VWC & CONNECTNS

1 Adult @£ 21.10 = £ 21.10


Technically it holds no value once you miss your train from Euston (unless you were delayed and you allowed sufficient interchange time), so a new ticket would need to be purchased.

The cheapest priced tickets available for immediate travel from London Euston to Marston Green with a Railcard are as follows:

Super Off Peak Single (OPS) Rte: London Midland Only £12.50
(That assumes you are happy to use LM in Standard Class and were travelling at a time allowed by this ticket)

Off Peak Single (SVR) Rte: Any Permitted £28.40

For First Class travel with Virgin you would be looking at £120!

I can't work out how the excess was calculated, but clearly you were undercharged to travel with Virgin.

Finally I'd like to mention that I know in future I should allow longer to get from KGX-EUS, but 45 minutes is ridiculous and is clearly just the TOC's covering their backs.

Take that up with the DfT and your MP. It's certainly beyond Virgin's control and ATOC are not exactly going to willingly change that!

I'd also like to praise the Virgin Train Manager who let me travel First Class anyway after I gave him my sob story. He did somewhat restore my faith in Virgin Trains today. I have left specific timings out of this post as I wouldn't want to get him in trouble.

Glad to hear it Most TMs are good, and that seems a fair compromise to me.

 

[All Line Rover]

Where did the £10.40 reduction off the £28.40 come from? Is this just a random number they chose? I agree with most of your points, I know I didn't leave enough time, and I was pleased with the end result from the train manager. I still think people should be allowed to use their own brains in terms of getting to the platform.

As for 45 minutes - I don't feel I should have to waste time in my day standing around at stations, just in case the railway can't run my train on time. I know the rules are the rules though so I won't harp on about that.

The gates at Euston close 2 minutes before departure (for VT services). It is almost impossible to board a train in 1 minute at that station!

 

[yorkie]

Where did the £10.40 reduction off the £28.40 come from? Is this just a random number they chose?

Possibly, but there is likely to be some sort of calculation. Without knowing exactly what price your original ticket cost, it is difficult to say. I certainly would not complain about it because you should have been charged for a new ticket, as AlterEgo says. Complaining could potentially get staff into trouble for being too lenient toward you.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes, but there's not much we can do about that, and I'm not sure whose decision it is (perhaps someone here will know) e.g. Network Rail or Virgin. If LM trains don't disappear so early, that suggests it may be Virgin.

I'm 99.9% sure that it is Virgin. But that's only boarding closes 2 minutes before departure for Virgin Trains services, compared to about 5 seconds before departure for London Midland services (as I have occasionally experienced the benefit of ).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No. What time was this? We can check if it departed early. (PM me if you like)

I disagree - I think that it is acceptable. If the OP arrived at Euston 3 minutes before departure, it was probably 1-2 minutes before departure when he/she asked a member of staff about the train. Since boarding closes 2 minutes before departure, the train has - to all intents and purposes - left.

 

[RYS]

Yorkie, my ticket was the £21.10 one that you described.

So to clarify then, an Advance ticket is only valid for exactly the advertised journey? Even the stages where reservations don't exist? If so then I honestly didn't know this. Live and learn.

I won't be complaining as my main concerns are clearly beyond Virgin's control.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yorkie, my ticket was the £21.10 one that you described.

So to clarify then, an Advance ticket is only valid for exactly the advertised journey? Even the stages where reservations don't exist? If so then I honestly didn't know this. Live and learn.

I won't be complaining as my main concerns are clearly beyond Virgin's control.

An Advance ticket is only valid on the train advertised when you have a reservation coupon for that train. You are allowed to travel on any "connecting trains" provided that you don't have any reservation coupons.

You are also allowed to take any route to get to the station where you catch your reserved service (in this case Euston, for a Virgin train), providing that you adhere to the minimum connection times - 45 minutes in the case of St Pancras to Euston.

 

[RYS]

You are allowed to travel on any "connecting trains" provided that you don't have any reservation coupons.

So despite having missed my previous connection. My original ticket was still valid for the final leg from BHI-MGN? On any train today? In that case I do still think the ticket office attempted to mis-sell by offering a new fare all the way to MGN when I only needed a new ticket to cover me to BHI.

 

[RJ]

Once the train disappears off the departure board, the platform information cannot be retrived. I certainly don't remember any of them, unless you are asking for the Overground train in which case I can make an educated guess.

The OP hasn't told the story according to the facts either. Three minutes before departure, it would have still been advertised, as in over a year, I've never once seen VT services disappear any more than 118 seconds prior to booked departure. We all go by the railway clock. My watch updates itself daily and is always within half a second of all tube/railway clocks, Teletext and Big Ben, so there is consistency. OP, it sounds like you've set your own timepiece to be slow - not a very good idea if you're using trains, especially if you're looking to make tight connections.
45 minutes is not ridiculous. Not everybody is you. Do you think that an elderly person, sat at the country end of the train at Kings Cross, completely unfamiliar with London, with bags in tow will take 8 minutes between arriving at Kings Cross and getting into Euston? Also, yes trains are supposed to run to time but it's rather naive to think that you'll never be delayed - you have to factor these things in if you have to make an important appointment, in this case, a booked train.

 

[AlterEgo]

I won't be complaining as my main concerns are clearly beyond Virgin's control.

There's nothing stopping you contacting ATOC with regard to your connections time concerns.

If you feel strongly about the matter, you could try contacting your MP too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So despite having missed my previous connection. My original ticket was still valid for the final leg from BHI-MGN? On any train today? In that case I do still think the ticket office attempted to mis-sell by offering a new fare all the way to MGN when I only needed a new ticket to cover me to BHI.

No.

An Advance ticket has no value whatsoever after you miss your originally booked train.

You cannot just turn up at BHI on a EUS-MNG ticket and "start" using the ticket, as that is an unauthorised Break of Journey (by starting short).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Three minutes before departure, it would have still been advertised, as in over a year, I've never once seen VT services disappear any more than 118 seconds prior to booked departure. We all go by the railway clock.

This is certainly my experience too.

 

[RYS]

I was going by the time on the clocks in the station, not my own time, and could swear it was 3, but anyway... 2 minutes or 3, I still think passengers should be given all information and be allowed to make their own choices.

Thanks for clarifying the Advance ticket situation AlterEgo. I'll remember this in future.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for clarifying the Advance ticket situation AlterEgo. I'll remember this in future.

It is worth remembering that Passenger Focus are lobbying for the original price of the Advance ticket to be taken into consideration, when passengers miss their booked train. (i.e. sell an excess fare)

That does seem to have happened here, but Lord knows how the excess has been worked out - beats me anyway. It does appear that you have been undercharged though.

Oh - and I think I know which TM you are talking about. He is excellent.

 

[All Line Rover]

This is certainly my experience too.

And mine.

 

[RYS]

Oh - and I think I know which TM you are talking about. He is excellent.

As sad as it sounds I'd been looking forward to my first class journey all week and that's all I cared about really! He really made my day.

 

[bnm]

Is the Euston departure board issue 'elf n safety gone mad?

Yes, but there's not much we can do about that, and I'm not sure whose decision it is (perhaps someone here will know) e.g. Network Rail or Virgin. If LM trains don't disappear so early, that suggests it may be Virgin.

Absolutely nothing to do with Health & Safety.

Health & Safety legislation is for protecting employees in the workplace. It is not there to protect service providers from the actions of the public.

If someone says 'elf n safety' is the reason trains disappear from the departure boards at Euston 2 or 3 minutes before the actual departure of the train then they are wrong. It is not down to Health & Safety legislation at all. At most it would be a public liability insurance issue if someone were to be injured running for a train.

 

[RJ]

I was going by the time on the clocks in the station, not my own time, and could swear it was 3, but anyway... 2 minutes or 3, I still think passengers should be given all information and be allowed to make their own choices.

Thanks for clarifying the Advance ticket situation AlterEgo. I'll remember this in future.

It's clearly stated on the departure boards at Euston. It's also stated if you buy a ticket online and also clearly highlighted on the National Rail website - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/eus/details.html

People can only be spoonfed to a certain extent.

 

[John @ home]

Hi, RYS. Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry you had difficulty on your journey today.

I took a train from Royston which was supposed to get into KGX 20 minutes before the departure from EUS.

The minimum time you should allow for crossing from one London terminal to another is published on page 44 of the Introduction to the National Rail Timetable. A copy of the current Introduction is attached.

It shows that the minimum transfer time between Kings Cross and Euston is 35 minutes, not 45.

The itinerary for this journey says you should change at Finsbury park and take the LU to Euston.

This introduces an interesting twist. I don't know the minimum transfer time between Finsbury Park and Euston, and I suspect it may not be published anywhere.

But we can see from the East Coast journey planner that, for example, the 1044 Royston - Marston Green on a Friday allows 40 minutes from arrival at Finsbury Park to departure from Euston. We know therefore that the minimum transfer time between Finsbury Park and Euston is not more than 40 minutes - it may be a little less.

In neither case is the minimum transfer time as long as 45 minutes.

But it does seem likely that you chose to travel from Royston on a train later than the one shown on your travel itinerary. If that is so, I agree with yorkie in post #5 - you do that at your own risk.

You may find it helpful to read the Advance ticket terms and conditions and also the Advance Fares FAQs thread on this forum, where we debated the meaning of an internal railway industry document giving guidance to staff on the application of Advance ticket rules. Q.22 is particularly relevant.

 

[jon0844]

It's a lot quicker to get on to the Victoria line from Finsbury Park (unless you've got heavy bags) than change at King's Cross. You do take slightly longer to get to King's Cross than if you stay on the train, but not probably enough to take longer than walking to the Victoria Line platform - and negotiating confused tourists.

The service frequency of the Victoria line is also pretty amazing at most times; often you can see the bright lights of the next train shining on the platform as the current train pulls out - and these things shift too, completely clearing the platform in around 15 seconds! The only downside is that when a train is that close, you know you'll probably be held at red for a bit - but you'll know that (and LUL drivers seem to apologise for standing at a red signal in about 10 seconds, and then every 30-45 seconds afterwards, almost to the point of being annoying!).

Despite my issues with the heat, and some shoddy build issues, they do seem to be working pretty reliably now and I've found myself changing at FPK regularly now to avoid KGX, especially when I'm going anywhere near Soho or Noho (Oxford Circus and Warren Street respectively, with a fairly easy walk from either).

 

[sheff1]

Is it acceptable for the info desk staff to lie to me about the train having left?

Everything else has been fully covered by others, but if you were told the train had left when it hadn't that is unacceptable in my view.

Unless it really had left early, the truth of the matter would be that it was closed for boarding, which is exactly what they say at airports.

No way of proving what was said though.

 

[yorkie]

So despite having missed my previous connection. My original ticket was still valid for the final leg from BHI-MGN? On any train today? In that case I do still think the ticket office attempted to mis-sell by offering a new fare all the way to MGN when I only needed a new ticket to cover me to BHI.

Debatable... but a non-issue really. The 'correct' fare to charge you, if just to Birmingham Intl was £28.40. This is the same as the fare to Marston Green anyway! However you were undercharged.

I was going by the time on the clocks in the station, not my own time, and could swear it was 3, but anyway... 2 minutes or 3, I still think passengers should be given all information and be allowed to make their own choices.

Next time, use Live Departure Boards Though that won't help you if they have closed the gates.

 

[clagmonster]

First off, I believe that the excess was calculated as follows:
Royston-Marston Green saver single £39.10 (with YP discount)
Advance fare paid £21.10
Difference £18.00.

An Advance ticket has no value whatsoever after you miss your originally booked train.

You cannot just turn up at BHI on a EUS-MNG ticket and "start" using the ticket, as that is an unauthorised Break of Journey (by starting short).

I disagree. Condition 19 states:
"If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
Therefore, to use a Royston-Marston Green ticket for only the Birmingham International-Marston Green leg, the passenger should be excessed to a Birmingham International-Marston Green day single. However, in this case, the ticket has already been used for the Royston-Kings Cross part of the journey, the passenger would only be missing the Euston-International section (by using a different ticket). As they haven't left railway premises (apart from to change stations in London) the I don't see that they have actually broken their journey at any stage. Therefore, as long as the International-Marston Green train is not reservable, I believe they can travel on any later non-reservable train they like for that leg of the journey.

 

[martinsh]

Regarding point 1, I find it quite understandable that Virgin remove trains from the departure boards a few minutes before departure (3 minutes seems reasonable). People would run like mad otherwise!

I disagree completely ! As long as the gate to the platform is still open, then the train should be on the departure boards.

I encountered this myself the other day at Gatwick. At 1315 the 1316 to Bedford was not on the departure boards, so I assumed it had gone. It wasn't until I went down onto the platform (to wait for next train) that I discovered the baords there said "expected 1318" and it was just closing the doors at 1319. If I'd had to wait more than 15 mins I would have been very annoyed.

[ And managed to make SPILL - Euston in 13 mins, carrying 2 heavy cases ! ]

 

[All Line Rover]

I disagree completely ! As long as the gate to the platform is still open, then the train should be on the departure boards.

I encountered this myself the other day at Gatwick. At 1315 the 1316 to Bedford was not on the departure boards, so I assumed it had gone. It wasn't until I went down onto the platform (to wait for next train) that I discovered the baords there said "expected 1318" and it was just closing the doors at 1319. If I'd had to wait more than 15 mins I would have been very annoyed.

[ And managed to make SPILL - Euston in 13 mins, carrying 2 heavy cases ! ]

That is completely different. Doors close at Gatwick about 10 seconds before departure. They close 2 minutes before departure on Virgin Trains service at Euston. It would be very dangerous for someone to run from the concourse to a train in under a minute at Euston.

 

[martinsh]

That is completely different. Doors close at Gatwick about 10 seconds before departure. They close 2 minutes before departure on Virgin Trains service at Euston. It would be very dangerous for someone to run from the concourse to a train in under a minute at Euston.

Different yes - but WORSE, surely ?

 

[All Line Rover]

Different yes - but WORSE, surely ?

It's not really worse. It ensures that all trains at Euston depart promptly and on time. The platforms at Euston are so long, Virgin trains would be frequently delayed if doors closed just 10 seconds before departure.

What's 2 minutes anyway? For an InterCity journey it's nothing!

 

[PTF62]

You should not run to a platform.

Perhaps someone should tell the people that run Kings Cross, and have quite frequently only announce the platform for an FCC train less than three minutes before departure (the least time I have seen is 1 minute 20 seconds). And as it is for FCC, if the train is leaving from 9, 10 or 11, the only way to catch the train is to run, because I have never seen FCC delay the departure due to the late announcement, and so it will leave on time.

And as for the staff at Gatwick last week, they announced a platform change as the train pulled into the station, and the platform change was to a different island. So you had people running up and down stairs with luggage.

 

[jon0844]

Network Rail claimed they'd ensure platform announcements earlier back in March, but they still do announce late. Only if there's a platform change, from 9-11 to, say, 0-5, do they seem to wait. That could be because the driver has to change too in some cases!!