ATW lack of Class 175 first class seating

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is surely a demand for first-class travel to be met for business travellers on the Manchester to South Wales services, but the class 175 units are all that are offered. The journey time is certainly long enough to warrant it on Manchester to Cardiff journeys, for example.

Has there ever been first-class travel on these services in days long gone?

 

[northwichcat]

As you are probably aware the 175s were designed for use on First North Western services, not services from Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales. If trains start getting used on longer services than they were originally designed for then complaints quite often follow, especially if they are not refurbished first.

 

[mallard]

CrossCountry runs one train in each direction per day between Cardiff and Manchester (via Birmingham), with first class. These seem to be timed reasonably for Cardiff to Manchester business travel. Apart from that, changing at Birmingham isn't a huge burden.

 

[Schnellzug]

Back in the days of loco-hauled stock and Cross-country DMUs, I suppose they'd have had first class, wouldn't they? In fact, most first generation DMUs had it, so i suppose it's only been since the Sprinter revolution that it's become all-plebian class. I do suppose that converting part of a 175 (particularly the two-car ones) would lead to capacity issues, and probably to indignant letters from Socialists in the papers.

 

[driver9000]

The loco hauled trains of the 1980s on the Manchester-Wales provincial services didn't have 1st class accommodation, if an FO or similar was in the train then it would have been declassified. The 1st generation DMMUs that were built with the small 1st class compartments seemed to lose their 1st class designations in the 1980s and some provincial routes lost their 1st class provisions in the 1970s although the DMMUs at the time retained their accommodation meaning a lucky few got 1st class seats at 2nd class fares on the declassified routes

I think to find 1st class on the Manchester-Wales provincial service you need to go back a long way.

 

[Greenback]

I recall Class 37's and three or four second class coaches in the 1970's, when the service only ran between Cardiff and Crewe.

Currently, the route is very busy and would there is probably mor ejustification for first class provision than on the WAG Express! However, overcrowding is a problem on many trains at different points, and it probably would not be a good idea to lower the seating capacity on these 2 and 3 car units to install a first class section.

 

[tirphil]

During the 70's and early 80's I remember a Manchester Piccadilly - Swansea service which would pass through Wilmslow about 0845. Travelled on it numerous times with my dad visiting family. I recall it had a buffet car although I don't know if there was first class. It would be a 9 or 10 carriage train at least if I remember correctly.

 

[Greenback]

During the 70's and early 80's I remember a Manchester Piccadilly - Swansea service which would pass through Wilmslow about 0845. Travelled on it numerous times with my dad visiting family. I recall it had a buffet car although I don't know if there was first class. It would be a 9 or 10 carriage train at least if I remember correctly.

Wasn't that the service that went via Birmingham rather than the Marches? I never travelled on it myself, but BR introduced a couple of cross country services in the second half of the 1970's. The destinations included York and Manchester, IIRC.

 

[tirphil]

Wasn't that the service that went via Birmingham rather than the Marches? I never travelled on it myself, but BR introduced a couple of cross country services in the second half of the 1970's. The destinations included York and Manchester, IIRC.

It was indeed. An 85 or 86 to Brum then a 47 to south Wales. I never knew what the return working was though as my dad always insisted that we returned north via the Marches! That was usually a class 25 hauled service with corridor coaching stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Until 1969/70 the Marches route had full inter-city status with something like 8 daily through Glasgow/Manchester/Liverpool-Cardiff/Bristol/Plymouth services.
They all had full 1st class and restaurant cars (and the Plymouth sleeper/TPO train).
All except the Cardiff trains avoided Newport via the Maindee curve.
Crewe-Hereford-Bristol was run at least as fast as the Birmingham route, and was/is less congested and much more scenic.

There was even a summer Motorail service from Newton-le-Willows to St Austell routed this way (I used it once as late as 1972), nominally non-stop but changed crews at Crewe and Bristol.

 

[tbtc]

There would be demand for a First Class service (certainly more so than the demand for a First Class service from Holyhead to Cardiff...), there would be demand for longer trains, there would be demand for a lot of things on a route like this.

However there's no chance of such in the short term, or maybe even the medium term.

 

[Greenback]

There would be demand for a First Class service (certainly more so than the demand for a First Class service from Holyhead to Cardiff...), there would be demand for longer trains, there would be demand for a lot of things on a route like this.

However there's no chance of such in the short term, or maybe even the medium term.

Sadly, you are undoubtedly correct!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Until 1969/70, the Marches route had full Inter-City status with something like 8 daily through Glasgow/Manchester/Liverpool-Cardiff/Bristol/Plymouth services.

They all had full 1st class and restaurant cars (and the Plymouth sleeper/TPO train). All except the Cardiff trains avoided Newport, via the Maindee curve.

This was the time that I was thinking of, as it was just after the final demise of steam trains. It is now over 40 years ago and I would have been in my mid 20's at that time. Only the Senior Management of the company that I was employed by in those long-off days were allowed to travel First Class.

 

[All Line Rover]

As others have said, there is definitely demand for First Class travel on this route, but is isn't feasible unless all 175's were 3 carriages - as a minimum! And I doubt they will be extended anytime soon...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

CrossCountry runs one train in each direction per day between Cardiff and Manchester (via Birmingham), with first class. These seem to be timed reasonably for Cardiff to Manchester business travel. Apart from that, changing at Birmingham isn't a huge burden.

Thank you for your posting. The route via Shrewsbury and Ludlow (with those two stations in particular being mentioned by former business contacts as in need of first-class travel facilities), does not currently benefit from the service that you mention, whereas the ATW Manchester to South Wales service offers a direct service from both of these two stations on the route that it does take.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As others have said, there is definitely demand for First Class travel on this route, but is isn't feasible unless all 175's were 3 carriages - as a minimum! And I doubt they will be extended anytime soon...

I must have been very lucky, as all the ATW Class 175 trains that I have used to and from my journey destinations, on this line recently, have been three-coach sets. Is there a general difference in coach numbers, if the services are to Milford Haven or to Carmarthen?

 

[Greenback]

Is there a general difference in coach numbers, if the services are to Milford Haven or to Carmarthen?

In my experience, the trains that run to milford are more likely to be two carriages. Not always though!

 

[All Line Rover]

I must have been very lucky, as all the ATW Class 175 trains that I have used to and from my journey destinations, on this line recently, have been three-coach sets. Is there a general difference in coach numbers, if the services are to Milford Haven or to Carmarthen?

There doesn't seem to be any consistency (or common sense!) regarding the length of trains. The 08:28 Crewe to Manchester service (from Cardiff) is only 2-car, even though it is an absolutely rammed peak service. The 18:30 service from Manchester (continuing to Carmarthen) is only 2-car, even though this is also a very busy peak service until Shrewsbury. The 19:30, 20:30 and 21:35 services from Manchester (continuing to Cardiff, Cardiff and Shrewsbury) are all 3-car most of the time, even though they are all very quiet! :roll:

Note: "Peak" just means a busy, commuter service. I'm not referring to ticket restrictions.

 

[Greenback]

There doesn't seem to be any consistency (or common sense!) regarding the length of trains. The 08:28 Crewe to Manchester service (from Cardiff) is only 2-car, even though it is an absolutely rammed peak service. The 18:30 service from Manchester (continuing to Carmarthen) is only 2-car, even though this is also a very busy peak service until Shrewsbury. The 19:30, 20:30 and 21:35 services from Manchester (continuing to Cardiff, Cardiff and Shrewsbury) are all 3-car most of the time, even though they are all very quiet! :roll:

Note: "Peak" just means a busy, commuter service. I'm not referring to ticket restrictions.

There arenot enough sets to be able to roster three cars on every train, and the trouble is that such a long route inevitably has peaks at some point along the run.

An afternoon train can be quite quiet leaving Manchester, hit a mini peak at Shrewsbury as college students and shoppers go home, then hit a major peak between Cardiff and Swansea.

Alternatively, a train may be packed leaving Manchester, get quieter after Crewe, and then fill up again later on. And a quieter train into Manchester may be full on the way out again!

It's not possible to cater for every flow, all they can do is to try and muddle along as best they can with what they have got. Particularly as availability can change from day to day, or even hour to hour.

Of course, ideally all the trains would be 4 carriages long, have first class facilities and a restaurant!

 

[All Line Rover]

Of course, ideally all the trains would be 4 carriages long, have first class facilities and a restaurant!

I'm not so sure about that restaurant. It's a bit of a luxury! The route is, after all, a commuter route for the majority of journeys (even though the end-to-end journey time is very long). A shop/cafe-bar would be nice though.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not so sure about that restaurant. It's a bit of a luxury! The route is, after all, a commuter route for the majority of journeys (even though the end-to-end journey time is very long). A shop/cafe-bar would be nice though.

It wasn't Paul that said that!

It was a little tongue in cheek, a bit of a sly dig at the WAG Express! It would be nice to have a cafe bar, but sadly Arriva are not keen on such things!

The route does cover a lot of commuter flows. My favourite train is the 0618 or so off Llanelli, usually formed of 3 cars It is pretty quiet there, but fills up a bit at Swansea. It becomes busier as we approach Cardiff, then quietens down again before livening up once more after Shrewsbury. It's usually pretty full on arrival at Manchester at 1115.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It wasn't Paul that said that!

I wonder who was taking my name in vain :roll:

I never make such "hopeful" predictions

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I got the 1219 Newport to Crew today - a 2 car - (being in need of a fix of Borders scenery , and on a day off) - loadings excellent throughout , but with a sniff of standing from NP to Cwmbran. A truly excellent service , with committed and friendly staff + on train cleaner fro some of the way who even did the table tops.

Admittedly - more 3 car sets would be great - and I expect the diagramming is a nightmare as the peak across the Swansea - Cardiff - NP section is now so busy that it must come first in the optioneering.(there are 4 milion jnys per annum on this section -excluding London flows)

On the subject of 1st class - the overall comfort - even on a 100% loaded train is very good in my opinion - a good number of professional looking travellers working away on PC's (or pretending to !)

 

[Sun!]

Ive been on a 2 car 175 train for Manchester to Cardiff a number of times. Really the route should always be a 3 car operation though obviously there arent enough of them. First Class I think would be quite popular also, as it isnt just Manchester and Cardiff but, Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe which are all big towns/ small cities.

One time it was awful, it was the 1.30pm from Manchester on a hot August day. Leaveing Manchester it was moderatly busy, but quite a few spare seats. From then it just got busier and busier, in Crewe a big pile of people got on, then at Shrewsbury though quite a few people got off even more got on and there was really no standing romm left never mind seats. Though it would get worse, we got to Hereford at about 3.45 and then about 40 school kids piled on and the train must have benn 40 degrees plus, and I thought I was going to pass out. Then after Abergavenny it got quite a bit quieter as loads of people piled off. It was ok to Cardiff then, but still quite busy.

When you get a 158 on the route it isnt very nice either.

 

[northwichcat]

One time it was awful, it was the 1.30pm from Manchester on a hot August day. Leaveing Manchester it was moderatly busy, but quite a few spare seats. From then it just got busier and busier, in Crewe a big pile of people got on, then at Shrewsbury though quite a few people got off even more got on and there was really no standing romm left never mind seats. Though it would get worse, we got to Hereford at about 3.45 and then about 40 school kids piled on and the train must have benn 40 degrees plus, and I thought I was going to pass out. Then after Abergavenny it got quite a bit quieter as loads of people piled off. It was ok to Cardiff then, but still quite busy.

ATW do have a 'Reservations recommended' symbol above the 13:30 departure from Manchester. If people chose to use it without seat reservations then they can't say they expected to have a seat.

 

[Sun!]

ATW do have a 'Reservations recommended' symbol above the 13:30 departure from Manchester. If people chose to use it without seat reservations then they can't say they expected to have a seat.

I had reserved seating, and did have a seat. It didnt mean the jounrey was fun.

Also to second what ChiefPlanner said you very often see people commuting with suits and laptops on the go on the route throughout the day.

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW only have 12 3 car sets and 15 are 2 car. They have to do the Manchester to Llandudno and Holyhead to Cardiff runs as well as Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea/ West Wales. They try and diagram 3 cars for peak trains into and out of Cardiff and Manchester which still leaves too may 2 car services knocking about. They could do with entire fleet being 3 car and a few more complete sets.

I was on the 1620 ex Chester to Cardiff last Thursday full and standing on leaving Chester with a 2 car set. A colleague of mine went to see his daughter in London last weekend he said it was a nice change to be on empty trains in the capital. Hes a frequent business traveler between Welshpool and Cardiff.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We should be gratefull really that there is so much latent travel demand and patronage ...its a good problem. (Just need some more capacity on these valuable interurban and regional routes)

I did some of my operational training in 1979 on the North and West when it was a 25 and 4 MK1 coaches with steam heat and a 2 hourly service pattern (and around 3 trains a day on a Sunday) - there was never much problem (often) in getting a compartment to yourself then !

 

[tbtc]

They could do with entire fleet being 3 car and a few more complete sets

True, but then there are a lot of other busy routes that are stuck with two coach DMUs (most Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Nottingham - Peterborough - Norwich services, for example).

I don't know why First North Western ordered a mixture of 2/3 coach 175s (did they plan on three coach ones on the services through Bolton, or was it always going to be a fairly random allocation), but its given ATW a better capacity than some TOCs have for long distance provincial routes (that don't fall under the Cross Country banner).

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know why First North Western ordered a mixture of 2/3 coach 175s (did they plan on three coach ones on the services through Bolton, or was it always going to be a fairly random allocation), but its given ATW a better capacity than some TOCs have for long distance provincial routes (that don't fall under the Cross Country banner).

Probably 2 car 175s were ordered because 2 car 101s were being withdrawn when the 175s came in to service so 2 cars replaced 2 cars.

 

[tbtc]

Probably 2 car 175s were ordered because 2 car 101s were being withdrawn when the 175s came in to service so 2 cars replaced 2 cars.

When FNW introduced them did the 2 coach ones stick to one area and the 3 coach ones stick to another?

(since the Llandudno and Barrow/Windermere/ Blackpool services are quite geographically distinctive)