ATW lack of Class 175 first class seating

[merlodlliw]

I've been led to believe by the numbers, and somebody on here (merlodlliw I think), that the subsidy the WAG express attracts is very close the actual cost of running the service (ie. the fare revenue it generates is not taken into account, and ATW get to keep all the fares revenue for a service that covers it's cost (to them) even if it ran empty). If true, that's the fault of privatisation, not WAG or the service.

I've also been told in the past that the WAG express subsidy of £1.7m (so a few years ago now) translated at about £6.30 per passenger. Call that a scandal if you like, but I don't. Now, around £57.70 subsidy per passenger to an unsustainable mode of transport (air) is what I call a scandal. I am of course talking about Ieuan Air, working on an assumption of 19 passengers, twice a day, 365 days a year. Divide the £800,000 annual subsidy by those 13,870 passengers and you get the above £57.70 figure.

Now, I don't have up-to-date figures for the train, but with the subsidy increase to £1,200,000 for Ieuan Air, and the same number of passengers, that's £86.50 per passenger. £6.30 per passenger for Gerald starting to look like good value yet? If you take into account the £400,000 a year the Assembly Government pays to operate Anglesey Airport as well that brings the £800,000 figure up to £1.2m and the larger figure to £1,600,000 (or a massive £115 per passenger!).

I am dreadful at maths though, so please feel free to double-check my figures.



There are currently two express services from Holyhead to Cardiff, one via Wrexham, one via Crewe, in the same direction morning and evening, with no express service going the other way. In my opinion, only one of them should be retained (running via Wrexham with a DVT or DBSO) but rather than drop the other altogether I'd suggest a mirror service. Same cost, more balanced service.

The 16:15 from Cardiff seems to be well used (at least in standard), both from my two experiences and comments on here. If the same cannot be said of the morning service, then I'd suggest dropping that but still having a 16:15ish express from both Holyhead and Cardiff.



Does anyone use either WAG express FROM Abergavenny TO Cardiff? I thought the southbound trains were both non-stop from Shrewsbury to Newport.
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1,Your figure's are about correct, plus whatever WG is paying for WAG2
last year it was £625K for a 2 coach 175 for half a year.

2.The 16.15 WAG1 Northbound, replaced a local stopper for the path,that
is why it is busy to Abergavenny.

3.With a half empty WG office complex at Llandudno Junction costing £millions, built to curtail travel, why should you need a morning Northbound WAG Ex. Otherwise why build these extensions of Cardiff Bay.

Bob
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I have no argument with you, you always put reasoned responses that are
well meant.
I note all of those travelling you mentioned were from the Statutory Sector, not one from the private sector.
I will agree with you, those in South Wales do not like to travel North,a few years ago we used to have meetings in Shrewsbury,semi half way house that suited everyone, but alas Shrewsbury is in England,out of bounds to Politicians thinking now even though its Rail Station is managed via Cardiff Bay.
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If that's true (which I have no reason to doubt) then perhaps that's an indication that ATW thought that the WAG Express would just abstract passengers from other services (and not attract new passengers)?

Apologies re the Abergavenny quote - I should have referred to it northbound only (though there are obviously a few busy stations between Shrewsbury and Newport which are omitted southbound) - as it directly replaced a northbound Abergavenny service.

Indeed ATW keep all the fare revenue. Sorry about thread 119, must remember to check it first, mods pls remove it. Too late for me to remove.

Bob

 

[150222]

I travelled on a 175 for the first time today. It wasn't anything special IMO. Admittedly it was only a 90 second journey between Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Rd but this is coming from someone who frequently travels on pacers.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I travelled on a 175 for the first time today. It wasn't anything special IMO. Admittedly it was only a 90 second journey between Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Rd but this is coming from someone who frequently travels on pacers.

Trust me, when you do them a long route, like I am tomorrow morning on the 0540 Cardiff-Manchester, they are actually very nice trains. I regularly travel from Penarth to Bridgend, and when I get on a 175 from Cardiff to Bridgend having just got off a Pacer from Penarth, it is a staggering contrast and I feel as if its First Class already. They are exceptionally quite, and the engines have a lovely sound! Albeit they are a little unreliable (as is with the 180s), but I think they are very, very nice trains indeed. I'm looking forward to my voyage on 1W09 tomorrow morning! And the trolley service is actually reasonably priced too.

 

[Erniescooper]

Albeit they are a little unreliable (as is with the 180s), but I think they are very, very nice trains indeed.

If you get chance to have a read of the January edition of Modern Railways you'll find the 175 fourth in its new DMU class for reliability, just below the 185.

 

[tbtc]

they are actually very nice trains

I agree with this - they are nice units to travel on, just not reliable enough (admittedly better in recent years) and not enough of them to make them a significant class. In both respects they are at least better than the 180s (a tiny class, and still unreliable)

 

[ValleyLines142]

If you get chance to have a read of the January edition of Modern Railways you'll find the 175 fourth in its new DMU class for reliability, just below the 185.

Yeah, well I've been on quite a few 175s (as they are the most common stock in my area) and about three pass my house an hour, and I can safely say I've never experienced any problems with them. Of course, we know of 175002's collision at Whitland last week, and the fires on units 175109 and 175110, but I think they are good trains! They have also been cleared to work on the Ebbw Vale Line so would love to see them wonder out onto Valley Lines services!

 

[150222]

Have 175's/158's worked on the valley lines before?
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Would it be feasible to convert them to BSI couplers?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Have 175's/158's worked on the valley lines before?
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Would it be feasible to convert them to BSI couplers?

I have seen a 158 on the City Line and on the Penarth Line; very, very rare though, almost as rare as seeing a Pendolino to Swansea ;D

If you include Maesteg and Ebbw Vale as Valley Lines, one Maesteg service is booked for a 175 (1V59 1238 from Holyhead, 1717 from Cardiff, 1815 arrival at Maesteg) and 175002 was used for trials on the Ebbw Vale Line.

Not sure about the couplers situation; must admit though, the sight of a 175 attached to a Pacer or Sprinter would be interesting to say the least!

 

[Pacerpilot]

Have 175's/158's worked on the valley lines before?

They dont fit! Its C1 Stock only North of Radyr due to gauging constraints. 158s used to crop up on City line diagrams before 2008 but Valleys men no longer sign them.

 

[anthony263]

I am sure I saw a picture good few years ago on a 175 at Cardiff Queen street while it was being trialled along the Rhymney line.

 

[150222]

They dont fit! Its C1 Stock only North of Radyr due to gauging constraints. 158s used to crop up on City line diagrams before 2008 but Valleys men no longer sign them.

So what is this proposal to use class 315's on the valley lines about then?

 

[anthony263]

So what is this proposal to use class 315's on the valley lines about then?

I did read that in rail magazine back in november.

I certainly am hoping for brand new emu's not class 315's which need a major refurbishement and deep clean in my opinion before they come to the south wales valleys.

 

[Pacerpilot]

So what is this proposal to use class 315's on the valley lines about then?

I guess it depends who is proposing it. DFT pen-pushers? mis-informed journos? Keyboard warriors? Or people who actually know the route and its limitations.

The Rhymney valley isn't a problem, but the Taff vale lines will swiftly relieve a 153/158 of their steps as far as I'm informed. When I signed the routes, the instruction that only C1 stock was permitted past Radyr was part of the route risk brief.

 

[tbtc]

So what is this proposal to use class 315's on the valley lines about then?

I did read that in rail magazine back in november.

I certainly am hoping for brand new emu's not class 315's which need a major refurbishement and deep clean in my opinion before they come to the south wales valleys.

I guess it depends who is proposing it. DFT pen-pushers? mis-informed journos? Keyboard warriors? Or people who actually know the route and its limitations

It's not a terrible idea, in the short term. The 315s are four coach EMUs, 80 metres long compared to a thirty metre Pacer or a forty metre 150 (in rough terms), so it'd be a big capacity increase.

Bear in mind that the West Yorkshire electrification under BR (Airedale/ Wharfdale lines) got cascaded 308s from Network South East (which were reduced to three car)... then later as passenger numbers increased got three coach 333s as replacement... then got extended with a "fourth" coach.

Wanting brand new to replace "old" is understandable, but getting 315s as a stopgap for a few years, whilst passenger numbers grow, would still be a step in the right direction.

(not saying it will happen, just that it wouldn't be surprising to find a newly electrified line with older EMUs using it)

 

[mr williams]

Back in the days of loco-hauled stock and Cross-country DMUs, I suppose they'd have had first class, wouldn't they? In fact, most first generation DMUs had it, so i suppose it's only been since the Sprinter revolution that it's become all-plebian class. I do suppose that converting part of a 175 (particularly the two-car ones) would lead to capacity issues, and probably to indignant letters from Socialists in the papers.

The loco hauled trains of the 1980s on the Manchester-Wales provincial services didn't have 1st class accommodation, if an FO or similar was in the train then it would have been declassified. The 1st generation DMMUs that were built with the small 1st class compartments seemed to lose their 1st class designations in the 1980s and some provincial routes lost their 1st class provisions in the 1970s although the DMMUs at the time retained their accommodation meaning a lucky few got 1st class seats at 2nd class fares on the declassified routes

I think to find 1st class on the Manchester-Wales provincial service you need to go back a long way.

Sorry, guys, there was first class on both the locos and the DMUs on the Cardiff-Crewe line in the late 1970s/80s, albeit in Mk I carriages. I travelled that line frequently in the 1980s and was getting to the stage of getting employer paid/being able to afford first class on longer journeys. The loco hauled were usually Class 33s with the occasional Class 25 , 31 or 47. In the 1976-84 era there were only 6 up 6 down plus a couple of locals Cardiff - Hereford in the morning and evening peaks. Usual length was 5 or 6 carriages - all compartment style - but longer on summer Saturdays (and on Sundays when there was only 2 up/2down all day!).

First class was usually no more than half a carriage although you might have had a whole carriage on some formations. There was no catering in this era.

I specifically remember going on a training course in late 1987 and travelled from Cardiff to Crewe in 1st before changing onto a multiple unit to get to a local station on the outskirts of Manchester. By this time there was one through train each way a day Cardiff - Manchester and as the end of the course on the Friday afternoon timed perfectly I jumped in a taxi and picked up the return through train at Wilmslow, travelling first class to Cardiff. Best of all, there was a trolley service on a few of the trains by then as I had missed lunch to make it to the train.

I also remember that the 1st class open return from Cardiff to Crewe was £49 (it is now £147!).

 

[PHILIPE]

I am not certain if 175s have been trialed in the Cardiff Valleys or not. There is a daily Diagram to Maesteg and, although not diagrammed, have worked to Ebbw Vale on several occasions. 153s OK for Rhymnay but not cleared beyond Radyr. Regular iagram to Barry Island, Coryton and Radyr and also believe one has worked to Rhymney.
Until approx 2005/6, 158s had diagrammed work to Penarth, Barry Island, Coryton, Radyr and Rhymney. They are booked to Maesteg and although not diagrammed have worked to Ebbw Vale on many occasions.
Cardiff Valleys (Maesteg, Bridgend and Ebbw Vale worked by Maon Line crews) have their own traincrews and have no knowledge of 175s and presumably no longer on 158s.