New 350s for TPE and LM

[fgwrich]

I agree with FTPE using Class 350 EMUs for Manchester Airport to Scotland services.

Is the Max Speed of 100 mph sufficient for paths north of Preston?

Also, I maybe being picky, but is the quality of Class 350 seating ok for such a long journey?

Fortunatly, thats why i believe these Desiros will be deliveried with a 110 MPH top speed - no doubt pending tests carried out in October...

As for the seats - they're not bad - at least it'll be based on the 350/1 with 2+2 seating and armrests...Personally, i dont mind them and having had a 350/1 From Euston to Birmingham, they're not bad for the longer distance work...Could be worse, could be those awfull ironing board seats as used by Bombardier in Southern / South Eastern & NXs 379s!

 

[swt_passenger]

So, about these 10 units for TPE.

A few days ago someone implied these were somewhat imaginary, because there had never been a specific ITT for them.

So it's good of LM to explain how you can issue a tender for a wide range of numbers, eg between 40 and 120, and then deal with a small order for a different TOC by including their order within that range.

The whole process turns out to have been exactly as has been reported on a number of occasions by Modern Railways...

 

[Whistler40145]

Is 110mph ok or should Siemens push the boat out & produce 125mph units?

 

[swt_passenger]

The answers are in the above posts and on the link in the OP.

They should be revised to run at 110mph and "negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route."

It is traditional in these sort of matters to ignore any official announcement, especially if issued by a TOC or the DfT, and concentrate on previous guesswork about whatever the subject is. Clicking on a link is extremely foolhardy - especially if it leads to stuff that is at odds with previous 'gen' on the subject...

 

[WatcherZero]

So, about these 10 units for TPE.

A few days ago someone implied these were somewhat imaginary, because there had never been a specific ITT for them.

So it's good of LM to explain how you can issue a tender for a wide range of numbers, eg between 40 and 120, and then deal with a small order for a different TOC by including their order within that range.

The whole process turns out to have been exactly as has been reported on a number of occasions by Modern Railways...

Through the magic of subleasing, the stock will be principally allocated to London Midland but TPE will pay London Midland for their use who then pay Angel the leasing company which actually owns them. A few years in the future there will be a larger order of dedicated new stock for TPE (new routes or more electrification) and they will return to London Midland.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is 110mph ok or should Siemens push the boat out & produce 125mph units?

Then they stop being a simple add on 350 order as you need to fit tilting which means a different body shape and you also need to fit larger crumple zones (first 1/3 of driving vehicles). Really to do this you're talking about procuring an entirely new class of train.

 

[MCR247]

Through the magic of subleasing, the stock will be principally allocated to London Midland but TPE will pay London Midland for their use who then pay Angel the leasing company which actually owns them. A few years in the future there will be a larger order of dedicated new stock for TPE (new routes or more electrification) and they will return to London Midland.

I take it (and hope) LM won't make a profit from the sub-leasing

 

[swt_passenger]

Through the magic of subleasing, the stock will be principally allocated to London Midland but TPE will pay London Midland for their use who then pay Angel the leasing company which actually owns them. A few years in the future there will be a larger order of dedicated new stock for TPE (new routes or more electrification) and they will return to London Midland.

They won't be subleased according to the LM announcement here:

...transfer is intended to occur in early 2012 via a novation to FTPE of the relevant contracts between London Midland, Siemens and Angel Trains. FTPE and the successors to the TransPennine franchise will run these vehicles on routes between Manchester and Scotland following the electrification of routes in the North West of England in line with national rail strategy.

It's always a good idea to read the whole official announcement as just discussed...

 

[MCR247]

But as a technicality the stock is still an add-on order to LM and then some will transferred to TPE when they arrive

 

[swt_passenger]

But as a technicality the stock is still an add-on order to LM and then some will transferred to TPE when they arrive

Isn't that just what I said in post #32?

 

[MCR247]

Probably, I just skipped through a lot of this thread

 

[atillathehunn]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that the 350s were engineered for anything up to 140mph running however they were artificially limited to 100mph by legislation and infrastructure constraints?

 

[MCR247]

Noo...

 

[jonesy3001]

Can they be coupled to the 185s or will that spell the end of them splitting at preston when going to blackpool/barrow/windmere and scotland in 2x3?

 

[cj_1985]

Can they be coupled to the 185s or will that spell the end of them splitting at preston when going to blackpool/barrow/windmere and scotland in 2x3?

i dont know specifically... but based on other modern DMU and EMU units...
i would guess that the 350s and 185s could physically couple.. perhaps allow one unit to clear the line of the other... but i don't think they could run in service coupled up...

 

[ainsworth74]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that the 350s were engineered for anything up to 140mph running however they were artificially limited to 100mph by legislation and infrastructure constraints?

Surely you're thinking of the 390s rather than 350s as they are engineered for 140mph but can't due to a lack of in-cab signalling. But 350s have always been designed to be limited to 100mph as far as I'm aware.

 

[DjU]

People on here know the very logical reasons, but it will be interesting seeing how Hammond and Villiers spin the award of yet another contract to Siemens.
I bet they are not keen to stand up and shout about it.

One of the ways they will deal with any perceived 'backlash' is the obvious Voyager project that is already being discussed.


One other way appears to be apparently to inform Southern to procure some extra 377s.
This comes from the same person that originally predicted this 350 order, so no doubt some people will go out of their way to disbelieve it.

 

[tbtc]

One of the ways they will deal with any perceived 'backlash' is the obvious Voyager project that is already being discussed.


One other way appears to be apparently to inform Southern to procure some extra 377s.
This comes from the same person that originally predicted this 350 order, so no doubt some people will go out of their way to disbelieve it.

...or for LM to order a tag-on batch of 172s to replace the remaining 150s (which LM weren't meant to keep, because they were getting 172s, but then have argued that they now need additional DMUs)?

Exciting to have orders starting again, just a shame that we can't order "little and often" - we have stuck to the feast/famine pattern instead.

As for 321 replacement, from memory the seven 321s aren't used very intensively. Is there any chance of putting something like a 313 on there? Esp if SO are getting more 377s?

 

[Chris125]

Surely you're thinking of the 390s rather than 350s as they are engineered for 140mph but can't due to a lack of in-cab signalling. But 350s have always been designed to be limited to 100mph as far as I'm aware.

He is indeed getting Pendolino's getting confused with Desiro's, a suburban design with a 100mph maximum design speed.

While it looks like LM think they can get approval to run them at 110mph, that will be it - the whole design, from the traction package, bogies and aerodynamics to the restricted size of the cab and the overall crashworthiness is incapable and unsuitable for 125.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that the 350s were engineered for anything up to 140mph running however they were artificially limited to 100mph by legislation and infrastructure constraints?

There was a recent thread about forthcoming testing of LM 350s at 110 mph to check out issues with the pantograph contact. They surely wouldn't be doing that if they wouldn't ever be able to do it in service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Exciting to have orders starting again, just a shame that we can't order "little and often" - we have stuck to the feast/famine pattern instead.

Of course this is part of the reason (one might even suggest the main reason) why we don't have much of a train building industry in this country any more and why Bombardier in Derby is struggling so much.

Of course, however, it sells more copy to suggest that the government is in cahoots with the Germans/evil Siemens (who also employ thousands of people in the UK) than to instead suggest that government policy over the last 20 years has been atrocious and we might want to consider changing it. No, I suppose it's far more interesting to blame the Germans...

 

[tbtc]

Of course this is part of the reason (one might even suggest the main reason) why we don't have much of a train building industry in this country any more and why Bombardier in Derby is struggling so much.

Of course, however, it sells more copy to suggest that the government is in cahoots with the Germans/evil Siemens (who also employ thousands of people in the UK) than to instead suggest that government policy over the last 20 years has been atrocious and we might want to consider changing it. No, I suppose it's far more interesting to blame the Germans...

As usual I agree with all of that.

You can argue whether the reason Bombardier will leave Derby will because of Thameslink or because of structural problems at the company, but as you say the fact that there's not been a conveyor belt of new orders over the past twenty years is incredibly significant.

If we had incremental renewal then we wouldn't have companies making hundreds of redundancies then taking staff on again, scrapping their jigs and starting from scratch again...

Without getting into arguments about Siemens (etc), it'd be good if the 350 became the default EMU design for that kind of work, especially if it encourages more to be built to free up 321/323s etc.

Who knows whether Lancashire will be seeing 350s (new or cascaded) for some local services (e.g. not just the TPE routes)

 

[Whistler40145]

Network Rail surely wouldn't give permission for testing Class 350s Pantographs @ 110mph if they had doubts of any damage done to the OHLE.

 

[WatcherZero]

These will be the last 350's (as its an obsolete model no longer offered), future orders will be based on the half way 380's or new Desiro UK platform.

 

[MCR247]

Network Rail surely wouldn't give permission for testing Class 350s Pantographs @ 110mph if they had doubts of any damage done to the OHLE.

Yes, it is a test to study the pantographs when there is 3 running at 110mph (ie 3x350). These tests will take place in October

And RE the last sentence in your post, that is the reason they are testing it, they aren't giving permission for all 350s to run a 110, just testing them and with the results that can find out if it does damage
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

These will be the last 350's (as its an obsolete model no longer offered), future orders will be based on the half way 380's or new Desiro UK platform.

Unless we bought an extra centre car for 450/5s right?

 

[northwichcat]

Can they be coupled to the 185s or will that spell the end of them splitting at preston when going to blackpool/barrow/windmere and scotland in 2x3?

The long term aim mentioned in the WC RUS is for Manchester-Scotland to become hourly with portion working to allow a direct Liverpool-Scotland service.

I think any portion working with Cumbria/Blackpool services is unlikely as they are unlikely to be diverted away from the Bolton corridor.

 

[DarloRich]

But as a technicality the stock is still an add-on order to LM and then some will transferred to TPE when they arrive

A Deed of Novation is used where one party transfers its rights and obligations under a contract to another party. A novation usually happens when the seller of a business transfers the contracts with his customers to the buyer. The consent of all three parties - the transferee, the transferor and the other contracting party - is required to effect the novation.


So technically, FTPE step into the place of LM for the purpose of procuring "their" section of the fleet.

Actually this is a really good way of getting round the ITT/OJEU requirements and means the FPTE don’t need to run their own tender exercise. I assume the deal will mean that LM lead the procurement but that FPTE have scrutiny of the design and specify an agreed interior.

I bet they are pleased to add electric desiros to their fleet as they have experience operating and maintaining of the "Pennine Desiro" and obviously work closely with Siemens in their regard.

VERY clever! I am impressed

 

[150222]

Surely you're thinking of the 390s rather than 350s as they are engineered for 140mph but can't due to a lack of in-cab signalling. But 350s have always been designed to be limited to 100mph as far as I'm aware.

Surely It would not be impossible? 332/333's were apparantly designed for a top speed of 160mph! but are limited to 100.

 

[Lampshade]

Who knows whether Lancashire will be seeing 350s (new or cascaded) for some local services (e.g. not just the TPE routes)

I think 350s may be a bit excessive on routes like Blackpool - Man Vic. Something like a 378 with proper seats would be better suited for slower multiple stop services.

 

[Whistler40145]

Lampshade, what about 323s for Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria services?