Wrong railcard prosecution letter

[olliec1234]

Hi all,

I’m 21 and I used the wrong rail card to make my train journeys cheaper through the uber app. I used the job saver + railcard as it was the cheapest and have never had an actual railcard. I got the Orpington to London Bridge train and it cut it down from £16.30 to £8 a day.

I got caught after doing it 37 times in June and was given a fine which I paid on the spot. It’s now October and I have just gotten a letter saying they may press charges (photo attached). But I haven’t done it since then

I’ll happily pay whatever I owe I just don’t want to have a criminal record.

I haven’t replied to their letter yet and will do soon, i have written out a draft letter accepting responsibility and asking for it to be an out of court settlement. Do I send it?

Please help me asap I’m really scared.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all,

I’m 21 and I used the wrong rail card to make my train journeys cheaper through the uber app. I used the job saver + railcard as it was the cheapest and have never had an actual railcard. I got the Orpington to London Bridge train and it cut it down from £16.30 to £8 a day.

I got caught after doing it 37 times in June and was given a fine which I paid on the spot. It’s now October and I have just gotten a letter saying they may press charges (photo attached). But I haven’t done it since then

I’ll happily pay whatever I owe I just don’t want to have a criminal record.

I haven’t replied to their letter yet and will do soon, i have written out a draft letter accepting responsibility and asking for it to be an out of court settlement. Do I send it?

Please help me asap I’m really scared.

Welcome to the forum.

Your letter doesn't seem to be attached: unless that's our settings delaying it, please have another go, although make sure you hide anything that identifies you. That way we'll know exactly what you are being asked about.

And we can comment more on your proposed reply if you show us that - so please show us your draft!

 

[Western Gaffer]

Your letter doesn't seem to be attached: unless that's our settings delaying it, please have another go, although make sure you hide anything that identifies you. That way we'll know exactly what you are being asked about.

OP originally posted it but in unredacted form, so it was removed...

 

[olliec1234]

Welcome to the forum.

Your letter doesn't seem to be attached: unless that's our settings delaying it, please have another go, although make sure you hide anything that identifies you. That way we'll know exactly what you are being asked about.

And we can comment more on your proposed reply if you show us that - so please show us your draft!

Hi it was just a letter saying they will press charges if I don’t reply. What’s the chances of getting it taken to court since it was 37 times and I’m 21

 

[soccermad]

You need to post the letter with your details redacted to enable us to give the best advice and not incriminate yourself any further by your response

 

[olliec1234]

Hi all,

I’m 21 and I used the wrong rail card to make my train journeys cheaper through the uber app. I used the job saver + railcard as it was the cheapest and have never had an actual railcard. I got the Orpington to London Bridge train and it cut it down from £16.30 to £8 a day.

I got caught after doing it 37 times in June and was given a fine which I paid on the spot. It’s now October and I have just gotten a letter saying they may press charges (photo attached). But I haven’t done it since then

I’ll happily pay whatever I owe I just don’t want to have a criminal record.

I haven’t replied to their letter yet and will do soon, i have written out a draft letter accepting responsibility and asking for it to be an out of court settlement. Do I send it?

Please help me asap I’m really scared.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 21:44 ==

Hi it was just a letter saying they will press charges if I don’t reply. What’s the chances of getting it taken to court since it was 37 times and I’m 21

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In your initial post, you say

I got caught after doing it 37 times in June and was given a fine which I paid on the spot.

Were you given anything before or when you paid this fine? If so, even better, do you still have it? Did you pay by credit/ debit card? If so, does it show up on a statement

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if you have already paid a penalty then that should be the end of the matter. But Southeastern's prosecutions are in a bit of a mess at the moment so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they have sent out the wrong letter. If you can show that you have already paid a penalty, then that may be what you should tell them.

 

[olliec1234]

In your initial post, you say

Were you given anything before or when you paid this fine? If so, even better, do you still have it? Did you pay by credit/ debit card? If so, does it show up on a statement

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if you have already paid a penalty then that should be the end of the matter. But Southeastern's prosecutions are in a bit of a mess at the moment so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they have sent out the wrong letter. If you can show that you have already paid a penalty, then that may be what you should tell them.

I’m thinking they may have back tracked the previous wrong railcard usages here. Is that even possible? I also have email confirmation where I paid the £59.40 that they charged me but not the original fine. That was given on paper in person

 

[WesternLancer]

In your initial post, you say

Were you given anything before or when you paid this fine? If so, even better, do you still have it? Did you pay by credit/ debit card? If so, does it show up on a statement

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if you have already paid a penalty then that should be the end of the matter. But Southeastern's prosecutions are in a bit of a mess at the moment so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they have sent out the wrong letter. If you can show that you have already paid a penalty, then that may be what you should tell them.

Good point.

I suspect if no response is sent this will escalate.

Given SE trains standard wording now refers to ‘incident’ a reply could incriminate oneself.

So while I suspect a reply is necessary the wording needs to be carefully drafted. Presumably in order to get them to clarify what they accuse the op of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 22:44 ==

I’m thinking they may have back tracked the previous wrong railcard usages here. Is that even possible?

They can certainly trawl your on line ticket buying records to see if there is a history of buying tickets with such a railcard. Whoever you buy tickets from.
Trainline regularly provides such information to investigators.

 

[olliec1234]

Good point.

I suspect if no response is sent this will escalate.

Given SE trains standard wording now refers to ‘incident’ a reply could incriminate oneself.

So while I suspect a reply is necessary the wording needs to be carefully drafted. Presumably in order to get them to clarify what they accuse the op of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 22:44 ==


They can certainly trawl your on line ticket buying records to see if there is a history of buying tickets with such a railcard. Whoever you buy tickets from.
Trainline regularly provides such information to investigators.

What do I even reply with? Some places say it’s best to accept fault and be honest then they won’t take me to court other places say to ask, will they even reply to me or just take my next reply as the last bit of evidence and leave it there?

 

[WesternLancer]

What do I even reply with? Some places say it’s best to accept fault and be honest then they won’t take me to court other places say to ask, will they even reply to me or just take my next reply as the last bit of evidence and leave it there?

See what people here think you should say given the context of what sounds like a Penalty Fare has already been paid in respect of the “incident”

 

[olliec1234]

See what people here think you should say given the context of what sounds like a Penalty Fare has already been paid in respect of the “incident”

I think they want the rest of their money back. I will happily pay it. I really messed up here…

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You have admitted to us that on 37 occasions you fare dodged. In general, that's the sort of behaviour which most people would expect to face punishment.

But in a backhanded way, Southeastern have done you a favour. As you can prove (post #8) that you paid the penalty fare, then unless they withdraw the penalty fare they can't prosecute you for the time you were caught. And unless you admit it to them they don't have proof of the other 36 times. They are so far off the proper process that if this got to court and the error was pointed out, I would expect the case to be thrown out.

So what you want to do now is get them to abandon their investigation before it gets much further. So you need to respond politely to their letter pointing out you have paid the penalty fare (it's probably a good idea to send them a copy of the email showing this) and asking them to confirm that the matter is closed.

And make sure that you pay the right train fare going forward. You are now on the railway's radar and they are unlikely to make a mistake to your advantage again if they catch you again.

 

[olliec1234]

You have admitted to us that on 37 occasions you fare dodged. In general, that's the sort of behaviour which most people would expect to face punishment.

But in a backhanded way, Southeastern have done you a favour. As you can prove (post #8) that you paid the penalty fare, then unless they withdraw the penalty fare they can't prosecute you for the time you were caught. And unless you admit it to them they don't have proof of the other 36 times. They are so far off the proper process that if this got to court and the error was pointed out, I would expect the case to be thrown out.

So what you want to do now is get them to abandon their investigation before it gets much further. So you need to respond politely to their letter pointing out you have paid the penalty fare (it's probably a good idea to send them a copy of the email showing this) and asking them to confirm that the matter is closed.

And make sure that you pay the right train fare going forward. You are now on the railway's radar and they are unlikely to make a mistake to your advantage again if they catch you again.

So since I paid the fine they gave me already they can’t take it to court? I thought that fine would be for that specific journey not all of them. I have been paying the proper fare ever since I got the fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

So since I paid the fine they gave me already they can’t take it to court? I thought that fine would be for that specific journey not all of them. I have been paying the proper fare ever since I got the fine.

They cannot prosecute you for a crime here becuase they did not catch you in the act for all of the occasions other than the time you were penalty fared. They could sue you in court for the money owed but that's about it.

 

[Haywain]

was given a fine which I paid on the spot.

How much did you pay on the spot and what paperwork were you given?

 

[olliec1234]

How much did you pay on the spot and what paperwork were you given?

It was from the revenue protection officer and it was a fine for not paying that specific ticket I don’t have a photo of it since this was months ago and I assumed this matter was over it was like £52.90 or doubles to £100 if not played within 2 weeks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 08:11 ==

They cannot prosecute you for a crime here becuase they did not catch you in the act for all of the occasions other than the time you were penalty fared. They could sue you in court for the money owed but that's about it.

But surely the back tracking since they scanned my e ticket and then had access to my account. Can they really not prosecute me?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But surely the back tracking since they scanned my e ticket and then had access to my account. Can they really not prosecute me?

They know that you bought the tickets. But except for the time they caught you, they don't know that *you* used them. And it's using an invalid ticket that's an offence.

 

[olliec1234]

They know that you bought the tickets. But except for the time they caught you, they don't know that *you* used them. And it's using an invalid ticket that's an offence.

But then if it does go to court then I can’t prove it wasn’t me and they will most likely pull up cctv of me walking in / out of the stations. If I admit to what I’ve done and reply to the letter they sent will they allow me to just repay the money that I owe them and leave it there?

 

[SuspectUsual]

But then if it does go to court then I can’t prove it wasn’t me and they will most likely pull up cctv of me walking in / out of the stations. If I admit to what I’ve done and reply to the letter they sent will they allow me to just repay the money that I owe them and leave it there?

The chances of them having CCTV from beyond a few weeks ago are slim, and even if they did the chances of them having the ability and resources to cross-reference that with the times the tickets you used were scanned through datelines and then be able to prove to the criminal standard (ie beyond reasonable doubt) that you were the person involved are I would say vanishingly small

For whatever reason - mostly likely their organisational chaos - it seems you've likely dodged a bullet here.

My advice would be don't admit to anything else, and keep your nose clean from now on. If you're caught again the outcome won't be as good

 

[olliec1234]

The chances of them having CCTV from beyond a few weeks ago are slim, and even if they did the chances of them having the ability and resources to cross-reference that with the times the tickets you used were scanned through datelines and then be able to prove to the criminal standard (ie beyond reasonable doubt) that you were the person involved are I would say vanishingly small

For whatever reason - mostly likely their organisational chaos - it seems you've likely dodged a bullet here.

My advice would be don't admit to anything else, and keep your nose clean from now on. If you're caught again the outcome won't be as good

Alright that makes sense thank you. What do I reply to the letter that they sent with with then?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But then if it does go to court then I can’t prove it wasn’t me and they will most likely pull up cctv of me walking in / out of the stations. If I admit to what I’ve done and reply to the letter they sent will they allow me to just repay the money that I owe them and leave it there?

This is where it gets a little technical. In the criminal court (the one that can fine you, and for other more serious offences can send you to prison) it's for the prosecution (the railway) to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that you did it. It's not for the defence (you) to prove that you didn't.

So even if there's CCTV of you walking into the station (and see what @SuspectUsual has said above while I was writing this) does that prove you used a dodgy ticket? No, it just proves that you were there at the same time. Most probably there were other commuters too - maybe it was them and not you?

Strictly, this is a biased system. But for good moral reasons it's biased in your favour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 08:34 ==

Alright that makes sense thank you. What do I reply to the letter that they sent with with then?

See paragraph 3 of my post #13 above.

 

[WesternLancer]

. So you need to respond politely to their letter pointing out you have paid the penalty fare (it's probably a good idea to send them a copy of the email showing this) and asking them to confirm that the matter is closed.

I would think a reply of this nature at this stage is the thing to do.

Then the OP can see what the railway company says in response to that. Eg if they make a specific allegation or state an intention of anything further they intend to do the op can engage with it.

The op could draft such a reply and share it here if they want any feedback.