Ex GC 221s to move to EMR

[DaveyJones]

They are older units and these particular ones have spent time out of use, which usually isn't good for reliability.

This pair have barely been out of use, they went from Avanti to Grand Central pretty swiftly, and one of them is in traffic today

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[fgwrich]

I believe this is the pair at GC, which have been out and about every day.

Indeed they are, Arriva / GC obviously has enough confidence in the Adelante’s now, potentially with 4 more arriving, that these two can depart the fleet for pastures new.

 

[45Fox]

I'm afraid that I can see all sorts of pitfalls to having just a pair of 221s interworking amongst a (admittedly reduced & further reducing) fleet of 222s.

Most of them have already been well covered by other posters:

● crew training
● incompatability between the two classes
● crew traction knowledge for specific depots
● maintanence location/requirements
● methods of door operation & train despatch
● neccessity to ensure they keep to specific diagrams
(The above list is not exhaustive).

The last two listed bullet points could prove to be very troublesome; should they be moved at short notice onto a diagram that includes short platforms (Long Eaton, for example, only 4 cars fit there) this would create problems as 221s are not fitted with SDO.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Can the 222s keep to time on 4?

In my recent experience yes.

It would be ironic if part of the reason the 810 programme is in the state its in is because of complex re-engineering to deliver performance that they didn't strictly need...

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm afraid that I can see all sorts of pitfalls to having just a pair of 221s interworking amongst a (admittedly reduced & further reducing) fleet of 222s.

Most of them have already been well covered by other posters:

● crew training
● incompatability between the two classes
● crew traction knowledge for specific depots
● maintanence location/requirements
● methods of door operation & train despatch
● neccessity to ensure they keep to specific diagrams
(The above list is not exhaustive).

The last two listed bullet points could prove to be very troublesome; should they be moved at short notice onto a diagram that includes short platforms (Long Eaton, for example, only 4 cars fit there) this would create problems as 221s are not fitted with SDO.

No different to how the 180s and HSTs operated before

There are only 3 train crew depots for EMR for the intercity side. Sheffield, Derby and St Pancras.

Would make sense to base the 221s on diagrams which are Derby out and backs which will be primarily Derby crews

 

[dk1]

Let's hope Hitachi are paying for this and not the taxpayer.

Best to just get the short term lease agreed as the route is suffering quite severely currently. The financial side of things can be sorted at a later date.

 

[Trainman40083]

One of the two Grand Central 221s is on Central Rivers today..

 

[fgwrich]

No different to how the 180s and HSTs operated before

There are only 3 train crew depots for EMR for the intercity side. Sheffield, Derby and St Pancras.

Would make sense to base the 221s on diagrams which are Derby out and backs which will be primarily Derby crews

Not only that, but GC are / were in the same boat too, and they operate an almost Alstom fleet (180s). At least the 221s will have some commonality, along with the added experience of Central Rivers being close by.

 

[LowLevel]

No different to how the 180s and HSTs operated before

There are only 3 train crew depots for EMR for the intercity side. Sheffield, Derby and St Pancras.

Would make sense to base the 221s on diagrams which are Derby out and backs which will be primarily Derby crews

There's also Kettering (drivers and guards) and Nottingham (guards and hosts).

I believe they will only be worked by a restricted number of depots on a fixed diagram.

 

[trainswitheddy]

So what will become of the GC 221s? When will they move over?
Not the first time the Midlands has had temporary cascades from GC

 

[fgwrich]

So what will become of the GC 221s? When will they move over?
Not the first time the Midlands has had temporary cascades from GC

Erm, they cease to exist with GC. They won’t be returning to GC after and will be part of the XC fleet. They were never fully GC’s anyway.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Erm, they cease to exist with GC. They won’t be returning to GC after and will be part of the XC fleet. They were never fully GC’s anyway.

Sorry, I more meant when are they leaving GC, AIUI they'll be going sometime this month so must get out to see 143 (and it's Virgin Red front panel!) sooner rather than later.

 

[Bradford1]

Grand Central's service prior to the 221s was horrific. The Adelantes would break down like every day.

 

[Trainman40083]

Grand Central's service prior to the 221s was horrific. The Adelantes would break down like every day.

And often in the worst possible place

 

[adc82140]

Grand Central's service prior to the 221s was horrific. The Adelantes would break down like every day.

They're not always going to do that though. The 221s were a stopgap whilst GC got a handle on the 180 reliability issues.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Just from a spotting perspective, that's slightly annoying. If the 221 photos I had already had been at Derby or Sheffield, I'd have been tempted not to bother; I can't imagine they'd get a new livery for EMR (or, indeed, a CrossCountry rather than GBR one?) so telling the difference wouldn't have really been possible.

The ex-Avanti 221s (like the 2 at GC) are going right to the end of the queue for the XC refurbishment plan so will only be done after XC is brought under GBR. The 220s are being refurbished first anyway, I don't think any XC 221s have been refurbished yet.

Given that the 2 221s at GC only have GC livery on the driving cab carriages, we'll see the GC stickers removed externally and possibly replaced with EMR stickers, then CrossCountry stickers until they're refurbished. The intermediate 3 carriages are still in the Avanti livery. I can't see them bothering with a full EMR livery for less than 6 months of EMR operation before moving to CrossCountry and with a full refurbishment pending as well.