Antisocial behaviour on buses: Have we given up?

[BuhSnarf]

I don't, I'm afraid. As a comparison, do you support a blanket say 40mph speed limit across the whole country, motorways included (except where lower), motorways included, because it undoubtedly would save the lives of countless children? It would certainly save more children than increasingly bureaucratic Safeguarding measures.

"Think of the children" is a slightly hackneyed argument. The adult world has to operate as an adult world, which means it contains some dangers so it can work in a practical way. It's on parents (and to a lesser extent the state) to teach children how to behave in it to remain as safe as feasible.

No, because a reduction to 40mph on motorways wouldn't change the death rates as the cause of deaths on motorways is not the speed it's the difference in speed between cars. Would I support a blanket ban on 40mph speed limits on single lane country lanes because this would lead to saving the lives of many people (not just children, it's adults who die mostly in car accidents) then yes I would.

Were you alive in the 80s?

Yes, of course.

They're the same thing, one of the terms is just to make it sound better rather than simply one political option. FWIW my views are mixed left and right, I can be very left on some things - but I'm very right in terms of personal responsibility, responsibilities before rights and consequences for wilful misbehaviour, I'd say (apart from that I don't support violent punishment - but I do want to deliver a modern equivalent of the clip round the ear as it works - a long walk home or the faff/cost of arranging something else). I would argue that progressive towards a quality, high trust society where people know how to behave and actually do!

They're not, progressive is usually classed more as centre left, I have a mixture of left and right wing opinions. I don't disagree with punishment at all in fact I think tougher penalties are needed., I think people in prison get way too much freedoms, I agree problem kids should be dealt with. I actually believe that being able to have children is actually a privilege and I wouldn't oppose to mandatory parenting classes prior to having a child.

The issue with having a "clip round the ear" type punishment is that this puts drivers at risk in a situation where there is no backup. It is much better for a driver to continue along their route than risk the intervention.

No, but I'd certainly like to see harsher short term punishment for minor stuff to make it clear it's not OK. A night in the cells is a good option here.

If we had the capability (read funding) then I don't disagree. But that's not the world we live in.

Disagree heartily. It's the perfect punishment and also associates a relevant consequence with the action. Misbehave on the bus and you don't get to go on the bus that day, best get walking. What's simpler?

There's many reasons why it's not the "perfect" punishment. For example, in chaotic environments, the full context of the altercation might not be clear. Children who are actually victims of bullying may act out in self-defence and find themselves kicked off the bus as the driver won't know what has happened. It puts drivers at risk, what guilt would they feel if something happened to the kid? It puts the company at risk from negative publicity.

Far more costly and delay for others than simply throwing them off.

And you expect that when the driver tells them to get off they're not just going to refuse? Any time I've seen a driver try and kick someone off it's led to delays and in the end they always refuse and there isn't anything the driver can do other than sit there. Calling ahead to get the police to meet them at a future stop is a much better idea.

No music should be played out loud, and the punishment for anyone who does should be being made to leave the bus and banned from future journeys that day.

However, aggressive gangland "music" is absolutely worse in terms of creating an unsafe feeling environment. How can a law abiding woman feel safe if music with themes of sexual assault etc is played out loud with a group of lads there?

Agree no one needs to hear others music, but the fact you single out that genre rather than 'sleaze rock' of the 80s which glorified many themes that are prevalent in what you're referring to also.

Knowing how to behave in public (particularly where signage makes this clear) and complex political decisions are not comparable. A ten year old knows you don't play your rubbish out loud in public.

It's not about knowing how to behave is the issue, it's being aware of the consequences of your actions. Kids absolutely don't have the same grasp of this as adults do which is why they are treated differently in law.

The person who said this is neither a rail/bus enthusiast nor an elderly person with money. She is a married middle aged woman with children (who are brought up to behave properly) and like many women feels unsafe on public transport when teenage lads behave like little thugs.

Anecdotal opinion versus numerous passenger surveys which mention that costs are too high. I did Google but I couldn't find anything that defacto proves that people would pay more for security staff. Again, the difference between bus and Uber for my local journey is £3 versus £5. I imagine if the bus was to suddenly cost £4 and include a security guard on each bus you'd probably find that in fact more people would move to using the taxi as for just a £ more you can get avoid the unwashed public completely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree no one needs to hear others music, but the fact you single out that genre rather than 'sleaze rock' of the 80s which glorified many themes that are prevalent in what you're referring to also.

If you don't think a situation feels more aggressive with a group of masked teenage roadmen playing gangster rap vs. a 60 year old bloke playing "sleaze rock" (I know what you mean, I've just never heard that term!) then I find that very strange. Gangster rap is specifically intended to be aggressive and threatening.

Of course the root of it is that they should all be using headphones in the first place then they can listen to whatever they like without adverse affect on others, be it Bach or gangster rap.

For what it's worth the one I find most cringe of all is young girls shouting out "blow my whistle babe" - I mean, you don't know what that means, it's not referring to dispatching a train! Kids really shouldn't be singing that and it probably shouldn't be played on radio before the watershed given the theme it really has.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:29 ==

It's not about knowing how to behave is the issue, it's being aware of the consequences of your actions.

I agree, which is why demonstrating those consequences to children is very important, rather than shielding them from them.

For instance, if they get detention for a good reason they should get a secondary telling off when they get home, not, as happens far too often now, the parent complaining to the school. Detention is a good example of a direct consequence that works - if you waste the teacher's time, they can waste yours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:34 ==

There's many reasons why it's not the "perfect" punishment. For example, in chaotic environments, the full context of the altercation might not be clear. Children who are actually victims of bullying may act out in self-defence and find themselves kicked off the bus as the driver won't know what has happened.

Depends what type of ASB. I can't imagine a situation where it is a piece of self defence to smoke, vape, play music out loud or vandalise the seats. The only type of ASB relevant there is probably fighting.

Anecdotal opinion versus numerous passenger surveys which mention that costs are too high. I did Google but I couldn't find anything that defacto proves that people would pay more for security staff.

Under the £2/£3 schemes do people really think buses are too expensive? Probably only the same people who think pubs are too expensive because a can of Tesco Value Lager is about £1.50 or whatever it is now - they just don't understand the realities of what things cost to run.

 

[Tetragon213]

As are PLENTY of songs from the 70's/80's if you listen to them...

I don't really recall that many songs from the 70s or 80s gloating about how one is going to roll in with a Glock to "pop a cap" in someone's backside, nor of that many 70s or 80s songs making precipitous use of the N-word and other obscene language.

It is frankly more important to me that old Granny Smith feels safe using the bus than that some marauding little chavs are "safeguarded" rather than being thrown off for intimidating her by playing their aggressively-lyric-ed gangland "music" out loud, swearing, shouting, fighting etc. That she behaves properly in my eyes gives her the priority, and I doubt I am the only one to think this.

It's not just Granny Smith that often feels uncomfortable listening to that complete crap that glorifies violence, murder, and the gangland life. And this is coming from a man who sometimes listens to sodding Sabaton on occasion, a band which has been accused (an accusation I disagree with, but can understand) of making songs which glorify war. It's also not fun when you have to overhear them singing along to this crap with all sorts of other horrifying sexist, racist, and violent language (just look up the lyrics to "Let Me Ride" by Dr Dre from back in the 90s as a taster of how bad it gets. It was bad enough then, and it's only gotten worse since).

Sorry, but "aggressively lyriced gangland music" - seriously, come on... you can't get people kicked off because you don't like their music. I'd actually rather listen to some of that rather than someone blasting out the latest Ariana Grande tune. I remember back in the 80s/90s people blasting out rock/punk/nu metal on buses... were they aggressive or are you taking that connotation because of the type of music? Or maybe you'd only condone the playing of Bach as that isn't aggressive?

It's one thing to disagree with taste in music, and to dislike Ariana Grande's grating vocals that sound like a cat being strangled. It's another thing to disagree with someone blasting out utter rubbish that makes precipitous use of racist slurs, referring to women with various obscenities, showing off about crime, and finishing by gloating about how you're going to pop a cap/hollow point into someone else's skull.

Both are very bad, but one is clearly much worse than the other. The former can be brushed away by Granny Smith as just another inconsiderate fool. The latter is actually quite intimidating.

 

[Sprinter107]

I dont think the anti social behaviour on buses was as bad or worse in the 1980s. Ive used buses all my life in Birmingham, I never learnt to drive for many years, and even now, id sooner use public transport than drive, as I find driving in urban areas stressful. However, I dont look at it through rose tinted glasses either. Vandalism got quite bad in the 1980s, I remember CCTV cameras being fitted to Birmingham buses around the mid 80s. However, I never worried about being attacked, stabbed or robbed on one. I do now. Robberies and stabbings do happen on Birmingham buses, I know of people its happened to. Ive been assaulted and threatened more than once for just minding my own business. That didnt happen in the 1980s. Nor did people just walking on the bus without paying and totally ignoring the bus driver, which is something else thats commonplace, and you now see regularly. I try not to use buses in the evening now. I wouldnt say I was frightened to do so, but im always on edge. I can only speak for Birmingham, I rarely use buses in other cities. It really isn't rose tinted glasses I can assure you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one you did get in the 1980s was smoking, and that certainly isn't missed. And yes, schoolkids mucked around a bit, but not in the intimidating "roadman" way some of them do now, which is a very negative thing that comes from US gangland and is not a welcome import at all.

There was also petty vandalism like editing "Please mind your head" to "Fleas in your head" using the edge of a key, or throwing seat cushions out of the window (a Merseyrail classic). But most of it wasn't intimidating in the way it can often be now.

And no, I didn't even do any of that because I knew it was wrong. And I knew it was wrong without my parents ever specifically telling me not to do those things. It's not hard - kids who are doing wrong KNOW they are, they are just choosing to do it anyway, largely because it makes them feel big and clever and they know they'll get away with it because what was authority now runs scared of them.

 

[BuhSnarf]

If you don't think a situation feels more aggressive with a group of masked teenage roadmen playing gangster rap vs. a 60 year old bloke playing "sleaze rock" (I know what you mean, I've just never heard that term!) then I find that very strange. Gangster rap is specifically intended to be aggressive and threatening.

Hang on, so they've gone from teenagers blasting out music to now masked roadmen! Of course, if they're masked this will cause people to feel less safe as it will make people assume they're concealing their identity. However, that's not the overwhelming case - again I guess different areas will have different make up of teens. What I tend to find is that you'll get a group of lads & girls sat at the back of the top deck being loud and playing their music on a speaker phone for all to hear but usually I haven't found them threatening - are they annoying as they're not playing the kind of music I like, sure. But they're not causing an issue to anyone else (other than to their ears) and in fact I've had on at least a couple of occasions one of the lads in the group has called the other member out for swearing as "theres kids on the bus."

A hooded guy who you'd probably assume was a 'nare do well' was on a bus the other week playing some jungle music out loud which initially annoyed me, yet it then had a sample of a song I like so I started tapping along and when he got off the bus the guy gave me the biggest smile and nod. Do I think he deserved to be kicked off the bus? No. Would he have turned it off / down had someone approached him politely, maybe. Would he have kicked off if a heavy handed driver came up demanding he turn it off, also maybe.

If drivers are to start confronting these things then they definitely need more training in how to handle these types of situations. From what I've seen in the past there's definitely occasions where approaching it in the wrong way and coming in with pre-conceived notions just inflames the situation and usually then turns in to something that is out of hand and puts the driver in a situation which they have no back up for.

But importantly... I think it's important we don't tar all kids with the same brush and maybe this is where we should end this thread or split in to two / define what we're actually talking about as there are clearly big differences between people/kids having loud conversations on their phone speaker which this thread was started about. Masked kids fighting and threatening the driver / Granny Smith are obviously two different situations that should be treated in different ways.

It's also worth noting that when you're younger things don't feel as threatening as you do as you get older. I'd imagine a 60 year old being on a bus with a gang of hooligans shouting loudly and throwing seats out the window would find it more intimidating than a 20 year old seeing a group of teens having a laugh and joke around throwing seats out of the window. It's only natural to feel more fear as you get older.

 

[Peter Sarf]

...............................

There's many reasons why it's not the "perfect" punishment. For example, in chaotic environments, the full context of the altercation might not be clear. Children who are actually victims of bullying may act out in self-defence and find themselves kicked off the bus as the driver won't know what has happened. It puts drivers at risk, what guilt would they feel if something happened to the kid? It puts the company at risk from negative publicity.

Now this is where CCTV is useful - after the event.

If someone miss-behaves then take-away/dsable their pass or block their payment method. But this only works if the showing of passes or paying is enforced.

And you expect that when the driver tells them to get off they're not just going to refuse? Any time I've seen a driver try and kick someone off it's led to delays and in the end they always refuse and there isn't anything the driver can do other than sit there. Calling ahead to get the police to meet them at a future stop is a much better idea.

Ironically all the cases where I see a driver refuse to move (or let someone on) the person either gets off or suddenly finds a means to pay.

It takes a bit of time but when a young woman in front of me said she could not pay the driver stood his ground. He ended up pointing out - you can afford a mobile so why can you not pay ?. Eventually she produced a card and paid so there was a lie there wasn't there.

.....................................

Anecdotal opinion versus numerous passenger surveys which mention that costs are too high. I did Google but I couldn't find anything that defacto proves that people would pay more for security staff. Again, the difference between bus and Uber for my local journey is £3 versus £5. I imagine if the bus was to suddenly cost £4 and include a security guard on each bus you'd probably find that in fact more people would move to using the taxi as for just a £ more you can get avoid the unwashed public completely.

Just enforcing entry to the bus would help. In London it is beginning to feel stupid to actually show off and pay or show a pass.
I really think drivers should stand their ground on that one - they are locked in a secure cab after all. Just wait and often the person gives up and pays or gets off.

If the trouble maker has done it before then disable/confiscate their pass.

I don't really recall that many songs from the 70s or 80s gloating about how one is going to roll in with a Glock to "pop a cap" in someone's backside, nor of that many 70s or 80s songs making precipitous use of the N-word and other obscene language.

It's not just Granny Smith that often feels uncomfortable listening to that complete crap that glorifies violence, murder, and the gangland life. And this is coming from a man who sometimes listens to sodding Sabaton on occasion, a band which has been accused (an accusation I disagree with, but can understand) of making songs which glorify war. It's also not fun when you have to overhear them singing along to this crap with all sorts of other horrifying sexist, racist, and violent language (just look up the lyrics to "Let Me Ride" by Dr Dre from back in the 90s as a taster of how bad it gets. It was bad enough then, and it's only gotten worse since).

It's one thing to disagree with taste in music, and to dislike Ariana Grande's grating vocals that sound like a cat being strangled. It's another thing to disagree with someone blasting out utter rubbish that makes precipitous use of racist slurs, referring to women with various obscenities, showing off about crime, and finishing by gloating about how you're going to pop a cap/hollow point into someone else's skull.

Both are very bad, but one is clearly much worse than the other. The former can be brushed away by Granny Smith as just another inconsiderate fool. The latter is actually quite intimidating.

I agree. There are some pretty nasty lyrics I hear compared to the 80s or 90s. All part of undermining civilised society.

But I suppose a lot more people have the means to play music out load.

I dont think the anti social behaviour on buses was as bad or worse in the 1980s. Ive used buses all my life in Birmingham, I never learnt to drive for many years, and even now, id sooner use public transport than drive, as I find driving in urban areas stressful. However, I dont look at it through rose tinted glasses either. Vandalism got quite bad in the 1980s, I remember CCTV cameras being fitted to Birmingham buses around the mid 80s. However, I never worried about being attacked, stabbed or robbed on one. I do now. Robberies and stabbings do happen on Birmingham buses, I know of people its happened to. Ive been assaulted and threatened more than once for just minding my own business. That didnt happen in the 1980s. Nor did people just walking on the bus without paying and totally ignoring the bus driver, which is something else thats commonplace, and you now see regularly. I try not to use buses in the evening now. I wouldnt say I was frightened to do so, but im always on edge. I can only speak for Birmingham, I rarely use buses in other cities. It really isn't rose tinted glasses I can assure you.

Croydon here - yes a similar rise in intimidating behaviour on buses which makes we wonder if I should stop using them.

On the railways there seems to be a lot more brazen pushing past barriers BUT of course those barriers were not there back in the 80s and 90s.

On buses these days I see a lot more people getting on without paying or showing a pass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to fare enforcement I have wondered if there should actually be some kind of turnstile or similar ticket enforcement on buses. Some US buses have this. It would slow boarding, though, and there would always be ways round it i.e. the rear door which couldn't have one as it needs to be possible to get prams and wheelchairs on. As with rail there is a strong correlation between fare dodging and antisocial behaviour.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hang on, so they've gone from teenagers blasting out music to now masked roadmen! Of course, if they're masked this will cause people to feel less safe as it will make people assume they're concealing their identity. However, that's not the overwhelming case - again I guess different areas will have different make up of teens. What I tend to find is that you'll get a group of lads & girls sat at the back of the top deck being loud and playing their music on a speaker phone for all to hear but usually I haven't found them threatening - are they annoying as they're not playing the kind of music I like, sure. But they're not causing an issue to anyone else (other than to their ears) and in fact I've had on at least a couple of occasions one of the lads in the group has called the other member out for swearing as "theres kids on the bus."

A hooded guy who you'd probably assume was a 'nare do well' was on a bus the other week playing some jungle music out loud which initially annoyed me, yet it then had a sample of a song I like so I started tapping along and when he got off the bus the guy gave me the biggest smile and nod. Do I think he deserved to be kicked off the bus? No. Would he have turned it off / down had someone approached him politely, maybe. Would he have kicked off if a heavy handed driver came up demanding he turn it off, also maybe.

If drivers are to start confronting these things then they definitely need more training in how to handle these types of situations. From what I've seen in the past there's definitely occasions where approaching it in the wrong way and coming in with pre-conceived notions just inflames the situation and usually then turns in to something that is out of hand and puts the driver in a situation which they have no back up for.

But importantly... I think it's important we don't tar all kids with the same brush and maybe this is where we should end this thread or split in to two / define what we're actually talking about as there are clearly big differences between people/kids having loud conversations on their phone speaker which this thread was started about. Masked kids fighting and threatening the driver / Granny Smith are obviously two different situations that should be treated in different ways.

It's also worth noting that when you're younger things don't feel as threatening as you do as you get older. I'd imagine a 60 year old being on a bus with a gang of hooligans shouting loudly and throwing seats out the window would find it more intimidating than a 20 year old seeing a group of teens having a laugh and joke around throwing seats out of the window. It's only natural to feel more fear as you get older.

There is of course perception.

I think people miss behaving need telling politely and promptly.

For the bus driver there is the announcement system and lack of the bus moving until behaviour improves.

 

[BuhSnarf]

With regard to fare enforcement I have wondered if there should actually be some kind of turnstile or similar ticket enforcement on buses. Some US buses have this. It would slow boarding, though, and there would always be ways round it i.e. the rear door which couldn't have one as it needs to be possible to get prams and wheelchairs on. As with rail there is a strong correlation between fare dodging and antisocial behaviour.

Also, how would a wheelchair user or person with a pushchair get in? It would be a bit cumbersome and slow. Or even someone just with a suitcase.

It would seem a backwards step after making all buses low floor.

 

[Peter Sarf]

With regard to fare enforcement I have wondered if there should actually be some kind of turnstile or similar ticket enforcement on buses. Some US buses have this. It would slow boarding, though, and there would always be ways round it i.e. the rear door which couldn't have one as it needs to be possible to get prams and wheelchairs on. As with rail there is a strong correlation between fare dodging and antisocial behaviour.

A turnstile would probably not be much slower boarding than all the bus users that have to faff with their mobile to get it to talk to the reader !.

Rear door - well middle door on most of Londons buses. I have noticed drivers looking over their left shoulder much more recently. Either a trend in using the exist for entry (which I have noticed) or perhaps a successful claim after being trapped in the closing doors !.

I do think fare dodging is the thin end of the wedge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:43 ==

Also, how would a wheelchair user or person with a pushchair get in? It would be a bit cumbersome and slow. Or even someone just with a suitcase.

It would seem a backwards step after making all buses low floor.

In London wheelchairs go in through the middle door - where the ramp is. And larger push chairs.

 

[BuhSnarf]

In London wheelchairs go in through the middle door - where the ramp is. And larger push chairs.

And so would the fare evaders rendering the turnstile pointless?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And so would the fare evaders rendering the turnstile pointless?

Curiously hardly anyone fare evades in London by boarding at the rear doors. It's almost as if there's a force field there.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And so would the fare evaders rendering the turnstile pointless?

Still would work. It is a brazen dodge and just results in the bus not moving if spotted/reported.

The turnstile for the front entrance is not watertight but it sends a message.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Curiously hardly anyone fare evades in London by boarding at the rear doors. It's almost as if there's a force field there.

Really, I thought that was the reason they gave for getting rid of the bendies as they stated fare evasion through the middle/rear doors was insane.

Certainly on my visits I notice people just walk on the middle (rear) doors without paying. You get the odd brazen one who walks through the front door almost as a point to show they're evading the fare but most of the chancers just go in the back door.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really, I thought that was the reason they gave for getting rid of the bendies as they stated fare evasion through the middle/rear doors was insane.

Fare evasion on the bendies was because boarding at other doors was permitted and showing a ticket was not required. On double deckers it is not. The behaviour is notably different - it is odd, but next time you go to London watch it closely.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Fare evasion on the bendies was because boarding at other doors was permitted and showing a ticket was not required. On double deckers it is not. The behaviour is notably different - it is odd, but next time you go to London watch it closely.

I have and see people get on in the middle even on the double decks...? Obviously not at the quiet stops as it would be just as obvious as pushing past at the front door, but certainly in Central London people get on in the middle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have and see people get on in the middle even on the double decks...? Obviously not at the quiet stops as it would be just as obvious as pushing past at the front door, but certainly in Central London people get on in the middle.

I don't find I see it often.

 

[GusB]

I'm beginning to think that some people have lost a sense of perspective. Playing music on public transport is an annoyance, certainly, but is it really such a heinous crime? If I'm in town of an afternoon and happen to catch the same bus as the kids coming home from school, there's a chance that there will be few who either play videos or listen to music on their phones. Around here it's likely to be happy hardcore or some other upbeat dance music with cheesy lyrics. Either way, I only have to listen to it for 20 minutes at most and if I was really that bothered about it I'd bring headphones and listen to my own stuff. On a longer journey it would be more problematic but, in my own personal experience, a polite request to turn the volume down usually results in compliance, along with an apology. Ultimately they're just kids being kids and they're not otherwise causing any trouble; they simply don't realise have the self-awareness to realise.

We're also gradually coming back to the tired old argument that all young people are evil and the sole cause of the world's problems. 40 years ago, the biggest source of noise on the bus (barring the engine) would have been old Josie coming home from the bingo; a lovely woman with a heart of gold but she had a voice that would make a foghorn jealous! Adults are equally as capable of being annoying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm beginning to think that some people have lost a sense of perspective. Playing music on public transport is an annoyance, certainly, but is it really such a heinous crime?

Yes, it is. Sufficiently so that on the railway it is an offence to do so.

It can also be a major issue for many people with autism, which is a very common disability.

If I'm in town of an afternoon and happen to catch the same bus as the kids coming home from school, there's a chance that there will be few who either play videos or listen to music on their phones. Around here it's likely to be happy hardcore or some other upbeat dance music with cheesy lyrics. Either way, I only have to listen to it for 20 minutes at most and if I was really that bothered about it I'd bring headphones and listen to my own stuff.

You can hear it through your earphones if you don't have over-ear cans, though (and carrying those can be inconvenient due to their large size). Noise cancelling doesn't deal with that sort of noise, indeed it makes it worse as it removes the engine noise but leaves "changing" noise there.

On a longer journey it would be more problematic but, in my own personal experience, a polite request to turn the volume down usually results in compliance, along with an apology. Ultimately they're just kids being kids and they're not otherwise causing any trouble; they simply don't realise have the self-awareness to realise.

I usually find I get a gobful of abuse on requesting it to be turned down. I still will but I find the success rate limited.

We're also gradually coming back to the tired old argument that all young people are evil and the sole cause of the world's problems. 40 years ago, the biggest source of noise on the bus (barring the engine) would have been old Josie coming home from the bingo; a lovely woman with a heart of gold but she had a voice that would make a foghorn jealous! Adults are equally as capable of being annoying.

I find human hubbub (even loud human hubbub as often found on the kind of pub-on-wheels that you get out of most large towns and cities in the evening) easy to tune out but not electronic noise, personally. It's uniquely annoying because of how tinny and piercing it is. I'd genuinely rather it was played louder but out of a high quality Bluetooth speaker!

That tinniness is why speakerphone is uniquely annoying by the way. If it was a high quality speaker with decent bass (e.g. on a laptop or iPad) it would just sound like two people having a conversation in person which I find easy to tune into the background.

Maybe improvements to phone speakers over time will actually make it less annoying!

 

[GusB]

It can also be a major issue for many people with autism, which is a very common disability.

Is it common? Approximately 1.1% of adults and 1-2% in children, according to:

https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/autism-in-adults/background-information/prevalence/

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is one of the most common childhood-onset neurodevelopmental disorders. In the UK, the estimated prevalence in adults is about 1.1%, with relative consistency across studies [Huang, 2020; NCCWCH, 2022; BMJ Best Practice, 2023; NCCMH, 2023].
Comparing this estimated prevalence of ASD in adults with that of children (1-2%) suggests that ASD is underdiagnosed among adults [Huang, 2020].

One could almost say that we're getting into Standard Minority territory here.

You can hear it through your earphones if you don't have over-ear cans, though (and carrying those can be inconvenient due to their large size). Noise cancelling doesn't deal with that sort of noise, indeed it makes it worse as it removes the engine noise but leaves "changing" noise there.

Buy some over-ear cans if it bothers you that much. My nephew carries them to screen out noise in public places.

I usually find I get a gobful of abuse on requesting it to be turned down. I still will but I find the success rate limited.

Not every situation will be the same. Are you politely requesting or yelling at people turn it down?

I find human hubbub (even loud human hubbub as often found on the kind of pub-on-wheels that you get out of most large towns and cities in the evening) easy to tune out but not electronic noise, personally. It's uniquely annoying because of how tinny and piercing it is. I'd genuinely rather it was played louder but out of a high quality Bluetooth speaker!

The example I gave wasn't mere "human hubbub", but you're free to dismiss my argument. My point is that different people find different things annoying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it common? Approximately 1.1% of adults and 1-2% in children, according to:

https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/autism-in-adults/background-information/prevalence/

That's pretty common, yes. It means statistically that every single double decker bus is likely to contain at least one autistic person.

One could almost say that we're getting into Standard Minority territory here.

Not really. The Standard Minority has to have more than one protected characteristic really.

Not every situation will be the same. Are you politely requesting or yelling at people turn it down?

Usually excruciatingly politely to be honest.

The example I gave wasn't mere "human hubbub", but you're free to dismiss my argument. My point is that different people find different things annoying.

They do, but playing stuff out loud is illegal on the railway and against the conditions of carriage of many if not most bus companies, so it's clearly prioritised. If it was permitted then that would be different (e.g. crying babies and shouting are permitted) but it's not and never has been. I think I'm reasonable in thinking people should stick to the rules of the transport mode they are using and the company should provide staff to make sure they do, personally.

 

[Edsmith]

Really, I thought that was the reason they gave for getting rid of the bendies as they stated fare evasion through the middle/rear doors was insane.

Certainly on my visits I notice people just walk on the middle (rear) doors without paying. You get the odd brazen one who walks through the front door almost as a point to show they're evading the fare but most of the chancers just go in the back door.

But you could do that on open boarding bendy buses, there was no requirement to show the driver a Travelcard or whatever although oysters should be touched in although nobody checked that they actually were. I've no doubt fare evasion was rife but for all anyone knows those boarding and not touching in with an Oyster, and you were allowed to board by any door, could have had a valid Travelcard in their pocket so you can't make assumptions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you could do that on open boarding bendy buses, there was no requirement to show the driver a Travelcard or whatever although oysters should be touched in although nobody checked that they actually were. I've no doubt fare evasion was rife but for all anyone knows those boarding and not touching in with an Oyster, and you were allowed to board by any door, could have had a valid Travelcard in their pocket so you can't make assumptions.

During Manchester's brief flirtation with bendies on the 135 the rear doors had one-way gates on them. They would be easy to circumvent of course but would (like those anti-suicide gates on fast line platforms) have had some effect.

 

[BuhSnarf]

That's pretty common, yes. It means statistically that every single double decker bus is likely to contain at least one autistic person.

Does it really? 1% would mean one person on the bus is autistic if the bus has 100 people on it, bearing in mind many double deckers can't accommodate 100 people then it's only going to be when the bus is absolutely full and rammed and at that point the sound of music is going to be drowned out by the general noise of people talking.

You may find the noise from a speaker worse than talking, but for other the annoying voices of a couple of old aged women banging on about their various ailments is much more annoying - at least the music has a beat. But we can't expect public transport to be silent so I put up with Doris and Dot and if I need to pop my headphones on.

If listening to music is that grating to you then pop some headphones on - unless you're sat right next to them it easily blocks out the noise or you need some better headphones!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If listening to music is that grating to you then pop some headphones on - unless you're sat right next to them it easily blocks out the noise or you need some better headphones!

Or people could comply with the law (rail) or conditions of carriage (bus) and be removed from the bus if they fail to do so. Which is what a serious country does. The UK is increasingly not a serious country, failing to take proper action on all manner of societal problems, and prioritising the safeguarding of miscreants over the comfort and safety of those who behave in a correct manner.

This has to change. Go somewhere like Dubai (much as I dislike the place) and that behaviour won't be tolerated, nor will any other ASB, as punishments are severe and quickly meted out when necessary.

Despite us allegedly being the most surveilled society in the world, it's so often not actually used to deal with things properly. And remember - minor ASB breeds major ASB - that's why Merseyrail rightly come down like a ton of bricks on feet on seats etc.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Or people could comply with the law (rail) or conditions of carriage (bus) and be removed from the bus if they fail to do so. Which is what a serious country does. The UK is increasingly not a serious country, failing to take proper action on all manner of societal problems, and prioritising the safeguarding of miscreants over the comfort and safety of those who behave in a correct manner.

This has to change. Go somewhere like Dubai (much as I dislike the place) and that behaviour won't be tolerated, nor will any other ASB, as punishments are severe and quickly meted out when necessary.

Despite us allegedly being the most surveilled society in the world, it's so often not actually used to deal with things properly. And remember - minor ASB breeds major ASB - that's why Merseyrail rightly come down like a ton of bricks on feet on seats etc.

I'm not sure you can tell how 'serious' a country is (what does that even mean, tough on crime? financially serious? serious about democracy? serious about growth?) by how it deals with people playing music on the bus. The conditions of carriage also tell people not to stand in front of the line and distract the driver yet I've been on several buses where other drivers stand having a chat with the driver, should they be kicked off the bus?

I'm not sure Dubai is the country you want to hold up as bastion for punishment. Punishments are severe for the general public whilst rampant crimes are committed by the elite that are just waved away. ASB absolutely is tolerated in Dubai if you have enough cash.

I'm fairly sure you've said in the past you don't actually travel by bus so I'm not sure why you're getting so het up over it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure you can tell how 'serious' a country is (what does that even mean, tough on crime? financially serious? serious about democracy? serious about growth?) by how it deals with people playing music on the bus. The conditions of carriage also tell people not to stand in front of the line and distract the driver yet I've been on several buses where other drivers stand having a chat with the driver, should they be kicked off the bus?

That should probably be a criminal offence enforced by the Police as it causes a dangerous distraction. Both the person chatting with the driver and the driver themselves should be in receipt of a sanction.

I'm fairly sure you've said in the past you don't actually travel by bus so I'm not sure why you're getting so het up over it!

I mostly encounter this travelling by train where it's just as annoying.

 

[BuhSnarf]

I mostly encounter this travelling by train where it's just as annoying.

In which case, that's much easily sorted than on buses - get the conductor/guard/train manager to enforce the rules. If they leave the back cab that is. Buses is so much harder as the driver has to... you know drive.

 

[bramling]

I'm beginning to think that some people have lost a sense of perspective. Playing music on public transport is an annoyance, certainly, but is it really such a heinous crime? If I'm in town of an afternoon and happen to catch the same bus as the kids coming home from school, there's a chance that there will be few who either play videos or listen to music on their phones. Around here it's likely to be happy hardcore or some other upbeat dance music with cheesy lyrics. Either way, I only have to listen to it for 20 minutes at most and if I was really that bothered about it I'd bring headphones and listen to my own stuff. On a longer journey it would be more problematic but, in my own personal experience, a polite request to turn the volume down usually results in compliance, along with an apology. Ultimately they're just kids being kids and they're not otherwise causing any trouble; they simply don't realise have the self-awareness to realise.

We're also gradually coming back to the tired old argument that all young people are evil and the sole cause of the world's problems. 40 years ago, the biggest source of noise on the bus (barring the engine) would have been old Josie coming home from the bingo; a lovely woman with a heart of gold but she had a voice that would make a foghorn jealous! Adults are equally as capable of being annoying.

Yes it is annoying. If you’ve had a stressful day at work or whatever, it’s reasonable to expect to have a decently peaceful journey home.

I agree with the point that it’s not just young people, your example of old people babbling on about ailments at full volume is just as a antisocial.