As we expected: Remaining eight 221s for XC

[tbtc]

Firstly, this is clearly good news. Expected, much suggested, "obvious" to everyone, years too late but I take nothing for granted these days - given that the 805s have been in service since Rishi Sunak was Prime Minister - XC feels like it's been on life support for a long time (over a decade since Arriva were awarded the first of their "short term extensions" that just kicked the can down the road)

Now that they are finally getting these units, they really need to just get them used on the "core". Much as I'd like to see sufficient resources for extensions etc, passenger growth in the years since 2016 mean we need to deal with that first

So, IMO sadly no daytime Southampton to Newcastle services. But possibly some trains from Hampshire to Tyneside (the180s heading ECS from storage at Eastleigh to GC at Heaton).

Funny how these things work out. EMR handed back the Adelantes they'd been using, so now GC are getting more of them so there's sufficient capacity at the Open Access operator to allow the Voyagers to go to EMR as a stopgap due to the problems they've been having. All the fun of the fair, but presumably somewhere someone is getting rich off this

Good point made about GC' s handling of the 180s, they are units with a terrible reputation but Heaton seem to be able to achieve a reliability/availability that a few TOCs couldn't

Lastly, the issues with the ex-CT bits of XC are a whole other story. 170s ought to be freed up elsewhere before long (ScotRail currently seem to need a few each day just to fill HST diagrams, given the state of those). The solution to capacity on ex-CT routes isn't 125mph trains on stoppers. A four coach voyager had fewer standard class seats than a three coach 170 anyway,

 

[londonmidland]

EMR are still expecting to have the two ex-GC 221s to come into service ‘sometime during December’, as far as I’m aware.

 

[WesternLancer]

EMR are still expecting to have the two ex-GC 221s to come into service ‘sometime during December’, as far as I’m aware.

That’s hardly famine to feast anyway.
But better than nothing I suppose

 

[Amos390]

EMR are still expecting to have the two ex-GC 221s to come into service ‘sometime during December’, as far as I’m aware.

Do you know when those 221s are meant to cease operation with GC, looking at 221142 and 143's most recent runs, 143 is still out and about, but 142 came to Central Rivers last week Monday (5th Oct), is that it done with GC now and if so how long until 143 follows suit?

 

[DarloRich]

CrossCountry have today confirmed acquisition of the eight remaining Class 221 - that’s six currently off lease and two on short-term loan to Grand Central. As I’m sure we all expected.

An obvious decision that should have been taken about 3 years ago! I still wont be using XC as it will still be awful.

Does this mean there will be enough, so 4car units never need to be run singly

This is Cross Country - they will lock the extra units up and drag them around empty for the ROFLS

hopefully that means some of the BHM-LEI diagrams can change to Voyagers and allow CDF-NOT to be extended.

What about the Notts - Cardiff ones?

They should go on the core XC routes not the peripheral ones. Stick them on the SW/NE route where they are needed.

 

[Rob F]

An obvious decision that should have bene taken about 3 years ago! I still wont be using XC as it will still be awful.

This is Cross Country - they will lock the extra units up and drag them around empty for the ROFLS


They should go on the core XC routes not the peripheral ones. Stick them on the SW/NE route where they are needed.

You think more capacity isn't needed on Nottingham-Cardiff?

 

[DarloRich]

You think more capacity isn't needed on Nottingham-Cardiff?

I don't use that one so I am not bothered

Seriously: The whole XC fleet needs replacing with more suitable trains. 3 car trains aren't suitable on that axis and neither are 4/5 car trains suitable on the key SW/NE route. 8 cars will barely be suitable on that key run.

 

[brad465]

I don't use that one so I am not bothered

Seriously: The whole XC fleet needs replacing with more suitable trains. 3 car trains aren't suitable on that axis and neither are 4/5 car trains suitable on the key SW/NE route. 8 cars will barely be suitable on that key run.

I suggested in the speculative thread that XC could do with a TPE BEMU follow-up order to replace their 170s, with fixed 5-car formations having more capacity than 3/4-car units as now.

Cross-country overcrowding: what could be done?

Interesting one today. Currently travelling from Coventry to Reading. 1626 was cancelled south of Birmingham, so the 1726 was suitably rammed. Declassified first, people wedged up against doors etc. Managed to squeeze into carriage A. Then lo’! The train manager piped up after leaving Coventry...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

Isn't there also a limitation with the Newcastle - Reading services having to be a 4 coach voyager due to the bay platform it uses at Newcastle only being long enough for 4 coaches?

P9 and P10 at Newcastle both 4 car max. P11 can take 5 but that’s occupied by 802s for most of the day.

And the cuts at Durham station continues

In fairness this one service isn’t terribly helpful at Durham to begin with, coming so close to other stopping services in both directions.

5 coach 221s are on some of these services.

When that happens they have to use a through platform and quickly shunt out of the way onto the Forth Banks branch, then return to a through platform just before the booked southbound departure time. Far from ideal which is why it’s avoided where possible. Forth Banks also isn’t available all day as TPE also have to send 802s there to get them out of the way between Edinburgh runs.
There’s no longer the capacity to have a full turnaround in the through platforms now that LNER have an 801 or 91 occupying P4 for most of the day.

 

[Killingworth]

P9 and P10 at Newcastle both 4 car max. P11 can take 5 but that’s occupied by 802s for most of the day.

In fairness this one service isn’t terribly helpful at Durham to begin with, coming so close to other stopping services in both directions.

When that happens they have to use a through platform and quickly shunt out of the way onto the Forth Banks branch, then return to a through platform just before the booked southbound departure time. Far from ideal which is why it’s avoided where possible. Forth Banks also isn’t available all day as TPE also have to send 802s there to get them out of the way between Edinburgh runs.
There’s no longer the capacity to have a full turnaround in the through platforms now that LNER have an 801 or 91 occupying P4 for most of the day.

Newcastle is an excellent example of how originally constructed platform capacity was decommissioned in the 1960/70 era to be used for car parking. Seemed fair enough at the time with the Metro diving underground to replace the Tyneside electrics.

North and south east facing bays could be recreated. Sounds simple? Just move the cars. Then recreate parts of the diamond crossing. Maybe not so simple - or cheap. But maybe worth doing?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Its the sensible and logical thing to do. It won't solve all of XC's problems but these units should go some way to help with overcrowding. Whilst the Voyagers are far from my favourite trains, the refurbished units (both the ones done for Avanti and XC) are an improvement. Hopefully they won't be coupled up and locked out of service.

I belive Lumo's Cardiff to York open access bid is using South West to North East paths XC have left empty. I am wondering if they will attempt to reclaim them and whether the Lumo bid has forced the government to finally fund XC to use them or lose them.

GC's proposed Newcastle-Brighton service will also use XC paths between York & Reading. Not sure whether these are filled by XC now though.

I note a couple of ex EMR class 180s were moved to Eastleigh recently. Could this be part of a plan to release the two Cl 221s from GC?

There were rumours that these 4 units were for use on GC's proposed Newcastle-Brighton service. That all relies on the ORR authorising that service though.

 

[swt_passenger]

GC's proposed Newcastle-Brighton service will also use XC paths between York & Reading. Not sure whether these are filled by XC now though.

They aren’t all used by XC, as a check of RTT for the Dec TT shows. But surely once they have the stock XC should apply to reinstate their hourly service between at least Reading and York to its pre-2020 quantity? As far as a quick check suggests, there are three northbound gaps at 07xx, 13xx, and 16xx. (The minutes vary across the daily timetable.)

 

[Ben427]

Whether or not they will, I'm hoping this will allow some extra service extensions, such as extending the Bristol terminator to Exeter so 2tph fast runs through here. I think strengthening the Birmingham-Reading corridor though is the biggest priority and wouldn't be surprised if this is where the enlarged fleet is targeted.

The biggest priority should be ensuring for a start that the Leeds-Sheffield-Birmingham route has at least 8 and preferably 9 cars on every service and actually turns up.
The fact that you have 3 of the biggest cities in the country linked by only one train an hour is ridiculous and a symbol of the appalling connectivity certain parts of the country face (and is a major cause of the economic disparity faced by the country as a whole).

Improving services in the south of the country when there are more pressing needs elsewhere is not the solution.

 

[Snow1964]

The biggest priority should be ensuring for a start that the Leeds-Sheffield-Birmingham route has at least 8 and preferably 9 cars on every service and actually turns up.
The fact that you have 3 of the biggest cities in the country linked by only one train an hour is ridiculous and a symbol of the appalling connectivity certain parts of the country face (and is a major cause of the economic disparity faced by the country as a whole).

Improving services in the south of the country when there are more pressing needs elsewhere is not the solution.

I think need to be careful about using the vague south of the country terminology. South-East I accept has plenty of trains.

Birmingham-Oxford and Birmingham-Cheltenham-Bristol and Bristol-Bath-Southampton need serious capacity improvement too

 

[Pete_uk]

FYI there is a service that goes through Gloucester which is formed of a Voyager to Cardiff and return but im not sure if it goes from/to Nottingham.

 

[Russel]

EMR are still expecting to have the two ex-GC 221s to come into service ‘sometime during December’, as far as I’m aware.

Hardly seems worth going to the effort of crew training for two units that won't be around for long.

 

[Starmill]

At least this will finally bring their capacity up from a just very slightly above December 2019 to a small but noticeable increase in daily production of vehicles. Obviously today's production is a tad depressed over what it would have been once the works programme is over anyway, and it will be several years yet before XC can take delivery of, and put through the works, all of these units. Thank the Lord for a sensible first step!

 

[Trainman40083]

At least this will finally bring their capacity up from a just very slightly above December 2019 to a small but noticeable increase in daily production of vehicles. Obviously today's production is a tad depressed over what it would have been once the works programme is over anyway, and it will be several years yet before XC can take delivery of, and put through the works, all of these units. Thank the Lord for a sensible first step!

But just imagine if there were new 8 car trains where you could walk the length of the train.

 

[childwallblues]

About time too. The overcrowding on many services is serious.

 

[Sleepy]

According to BBC report this will benefit Cambridge too ..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6n04j4lzlz5o
Highly unlikely with that stock.

 

[Trainman40083]

According to BBC report this will benefit Cambridge too ..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6n04j4lzlz5o
Highly unlikely with that stock.

I guess if more Voyagers were to work Nottingham to Cardiff, it could free up some 170s to enhance services to Cambridge. But all in all, it stops open access operators having them, that might compete

 

[Class 317]

According to BBC report this will benefit Cambridge too ..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6n04j4lzlz5o
Highly unlikely with that stock.

No mention of Cambridge in the press release which suggests poor reporting and no benefit to Cambridge.

 

[brad465]

According to BBC report this will benefit Cambridge too ..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6n04j4lzlz5o
Highly unlikely with that stock.

That's probably just the BBC looking at places XC serve and assuming they will all benefit from this move without really doing a deep dive into what runs where.

 

[Killingworth]

Passengers travelling between some of Britain's biggest cities could have access to 60,000 extra rail seats each week under plans from CrossCountry.

The eight additional trains would increase capacity on services running through Birmingham to Glasgow, Penzance and Bournemouth, as well as Leeds, Leicester, Sheffield, Cardiff, Cambridge and Manchester.

CrossCountry said the first of the extra Voyager trains would enter service in early 2027, with the remainder arriving by May 2028.

Thinking how I put this to an old friend who had to stand between Cheltenham and Newcastle a couple of years ago and swore he'd never to do it again despite delay repay pay out.

The trains exist. They were working until quite recently. He's going to ask if I'm serious. It's going to take almost 2 years to get them all into service? Really? What's keeping them? 'Could' and 'would' so we should have the full fleet in operation by autumn 2028, unless some other peril comes along before then.

Hopefully the entire fleet can be fully manned 7 days a week and will be fully refurbished and in full working order. For waiting a bit longer we must get improved and more reliable services. If the suppressed demand we all describe is truly there they won't be enough.

 

[Starmill]

No mention of Cambridge in the press release which suggests poor reporting and no benefit to Cambridge.

It seems unlikely that they can realistically use a Voyager to swap a three car 170 out for a pair of two car ones, although they may may able to make it less likely that a three car would be swapped out for a two car by itself. It does seem to be fairly common that they use a four car Voyager to cover for an unavailable three car Turbostar on the non-Stansted Airport services. As you suggest the most likely explanation looks like poor copy, of course.

I have long been a proponent of moving the Stansted Airport XC services up to four car, or at least a couple of them, going back at least a decade now. Alas it's rather unlikely... At least removing the old First has gained proper bicycle spaces and an extra couple of Standard seats... Eventually!

 

[Ben427]

I think need to be careful about using the vague south of the country terminology. South-East I accept has plenty of trains.

Birmingham-Oxford and Birmingham-Cheltenham-Bristol and Bristol-Bath-Southampton need serious capacity improvement too

I don't think I need to be careful. You might disagree but I'm not taking a warning

I am aware that the SW has inferior train connectivity to the SE, Bristol to Birmingham has twice as many trains an hour as Leeds to Birmingham and the distances are not that different. Incredibly Bristol has the same service to Scotland as

Yes there are capacity improvements needed elsewhere but frankly the North's infrastructure is still inferior to any of the large conurbations outside of the M25, particularly considering the economic size of the Leeds-Sheffield-East Midlands-West Midlands axis which is appallingly connected.

The other areas you mentioned have the same level of connectivity as Leeds to Brum and frankly are significantly smaller in population, economic size and probably most importantly density. If we are talking about priority (as we were) then this is probably the major corridor that is in need of drastic improvement

Ironically of all the HS2 legs, the eastern one had the best BCR and the biggest opportunity of delivering economic transformation; the western leg was largely increasing capacity and I'd argue not particularly transformative.

We're only getting a decent version of TRU because HS2 East was cancelled.

 

[Edvid]

EMR are still expecting to have the two ex-GC 221s to come into service ‘sometime during December’, as far as I’m aware.

Indeed they've just published a notice on Find a Tender to that effect.

Transport UK East Midlands Limited (EMR) intends to enter into a short-term operating hire of two Class 221 passenger rolling-stock units, including maintenance, technical support and daily fitness-to-run certification, for use on East Midlands Railway passenger services from 26 October 2026 to 28 February 2027.
[...]
An extension option is included to allow the contract term to be extended up to 7 April 2027 if required to maintain continuity of the services.

 

[A S Leib]

frankly the North's infrastructure is still inferior to any of the large conurbations outside of the M25,

Being slightly tongue-in-cheek, Belfast?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Indeed they've just published a notice on Find a Tender to that effect.

Looks like a sublease from Grand Central so separate from this CorssCountry agreement.

 

[liamf656]

Temporary lease for 222142-143 has been confirmed for EMR, beginning 26th October to 28th February 2027