As we expected: Remaining eight 221s for XC

[XCTurbostar]

Logic prevails! Keeping the entire fleet together makes sense, hopefully that means some of the BHM-LEI diagrams can change to Voyagers and allow CDF-NOT to be extended.

 

[hexagon789]

Logic prevails! Keeping the entire fleet together makes sense, hopefully that means some of the BHM-LEI diagrams can change to Voyagers and allow CDF-NOT to be extended.

May have a slight time penalty due to the SP speeds between Nuneaton and Leicester which Voyagers cannot use but 170s can.

 

[paulmch]

May have a slight time penalty due to the SP speeds between Nuneaton and Leicester which Voyagers cannot use but 170s can.

I'd imagine that would be partially be offset by the fact that a Voyager accelerates like a bat out of hell compared to a 170!

 

[Trainman40083]

Seems to be both if I've interpreted the article linked in Post #1 on XC's website correctly:

'As these trains join the CrossCountry fleet, they will provide additional capacity and open up new journey opportunities on routes including Edinburgh and Glasgow, Reading and Newcastle, Reading and Southampton, and Manchester and Bournemouth.'

Well, after they have been fully refurbished anyway . Is the service through Oxford back to half hourly yet, with many services running through to Southampton?

 

[hexagon789]

I'd imagine that would be partially be offset by the fact that a Voyager accelerates like a bat out of hell compared to a 170!

Very true, bit like 185 vs 158 on TP.

 

[DDB]

I belive Lumo's Cardiff to York open access bid is using South West to North East paths XC have left empty. I am wondering if they will attempt to reclaim them and whether the Lumo bid has forced the government to finally fund XC to use them or lose them.

 

[Trainman40083]

I belive Lumo's Cardiff to York open access bid is using South West to North East paths XC have left empty. I am wondering if they will attempt to reclaim them and whether the Lumo bid has forced the government to finally fund XC to use them or lose them.

Seems fair.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I thought that was soon being largely truncated at York anyway.

That's not correct.

 

[Driver068]

Very good news indeed.

This also puts to bed rumours that the GC pair are heading to EMR.

Conflicting news as it was suggested in GC internal Comms that the GC 221s were indeed heading to EMR but clearly something changed in a matter of weeks as I understand this was going to be the case.

Do we know how long the GC pair are on lease to GC for? That could be why the timescale reaches into 2028 if they still have a while left to operate GC services before moving over to XC.

The 221s will be leaving GC relatively soon so unless they go EMR short term then XC I would expect them both to head to XC in the spring if not sooner.

Grand Central new units are supposed to start build in Spring 2027, they are very much 5car clones of 805s, but with the new battery packs too, so hopefully will work virtually out of box (unlike the troublesome 810s)

I would guess Grand Central would be releasing their pair as soon as they have sufficient new trains in service.

I am guessing the 8 units will be added to tail end of the refurbishment programme (can anyone confirm or say otherwise)

GCs plan is actually for the 820s to be a smilier approach to EMRs 810s.

GCs 180s have provided a lot of reliability over the last 12 months so the confidence is in the 10 x 180s rather than waiting before the new trains come on line. The 221s will be long gone before GCs new trains arrive. Will be a period of time where GC will be using only 180s

 

[sabanda]

The GC 221s heading to EMR could well be the reason for the longer than expected timescale?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, after they have been fully refurbished anyway . Is the service through Oxford back to half hourly yet, with many services running through to Southampton?

There’s no evidence of the regular Southampton extensions returning, they’ve not been mentioned in any XC track access proposals over the last few years, although I haven’t checked recently. They were only ever 2 hourly, and I think the single daily Newcastle service that currently starts from Southampton at 0755 would need to be run as ECS from Eastleigh anyway.

 

[Driver068]

The GC 221s heading to EMR could well be the reason for the longer than expected timescale?

Possibly, that’s my thinking

 

[Trainman40083]

There’s no evidence of the regular Southampton extensions returning, they’ve not been mentioned in any XC track access proposals over the last few years, although I haven’t checked recently. They were only ever 2 hourly, and I think the single daily Newcastle service that currently starts from Southampton at 0755 would need to be run as ECS from Eastleigh anyway.

I used to travel on XC to Southampton, but gave up on it. At the time, the ones I wanted seemed to terminate at Reading, just missing the GWR to Basingstoke... So went via London instead.

 

[45Fox]

hopefully that means some of the BHM-LEI diagrams can change to Voyagers

I would very much doubt it.

The diagrams of the units that work Leicester-Birmingham (and vice-versa) services are tied in with the Stansted Airport/Cambridge services.

Also Leicester and Cambridge crews aren't passed on Voyagers.

 

[Amos390]

What about the Notts - Cardiff ones?

 

[adc82140]

The GC 221s heading to EMR could well be the reason for the longer than expected timescale?

I note a couple of ex EMR class 180s were moved to Eastleigh recently. Could this be part of a plan to release the two Cl 221s from GC?

 

[45Fox]

What about the Notts - Cardiff ones?

There could be some scope for this but it would be affected by the fact that Leicester crews work a lot of them between Birmingham and Nottingham.

 

[Trainman40083]

I note a couple of ex EMR class 180s were moved to Eastleigh recently. Could this be part of a plan to release the two Cl 221s from GC?

All 4 ex EMR Class 180s are at Eastleigh (assuming the last one moved from Ely)... So you can see where GC would get replacement units.

 

[Snow1964]

Do we know if the plan is to use then to double up more current services or restore some of the missing services that got chopped out of the timetable?

Most recent period (6) cross country voyager routes had 10.8% cancellations. If they can't even run 1 in 9 trains then not much chance of expanding timetable for previously axed services.

Key Business Performance Indicators | CrossCountry Trains

Discover CrossCountry's train performance, including delays and cancellation rates, passenger satisfaction, and complaints.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Regarding doubling up, XC still operating 4.2% of voyager trains as short formations (better than previous periods 5.6% short formation, but miles away from it being an occasional rarity)

 

[Royston Vasey]

Logic prevails! Keeping the entire fleet together makes sense, hopefully that means some of the BHM-LEI diagrams can change to Voyagers and allow CDF-NOT to be extended.

You want to put Voyagers on the one hour local stopper and not the 3.5 hour semifast?!

The Leicesters also interwork with Stansted diagrams so must be @XCTurbostar s

 

[Amos390]

Also will these 8 units be handed over to XC in their current state with XC stickers or be fully retrofitted into the new XC (probably being the first 221s to do so)?

 

[Trainman40083]

Also will these 8 units be handed over to XC in their current state with XC stickers or be fully retrofitted into the new XC (probably being the first 221s to do so)?

They will be fully refurbished first.

 

[mmh]

Also will these 8 units be handed over to XC in their current state with XC stickers or be fully retrofitted into the new XC (probably being the first 221s to do so)?

Oh, you'd want them to be just handed over "in their current state". There was absolutely nothing wrong with the internal state of Avanti's 221s, far from it.

 

[ox_chap]

Will the shop be kept on these units?

 

[hexagon789]

Will the shop be kept on these units?

It'll be removed on refurbishment.

 

[sabanda]

They will be fully refurbished first.

Does this not disrupt the existing schedule which had called for the ex-Avanti sets to be the last for refurbishment?

 

[ValentaFan1974]

They will be the last to be refurbished. They’re doing the 220’s first, then the original XC 221’s, then they’ll do the Avanti cascade units last.

 

[david1212]

.... Is the service through Oxford back to half hourly yet,

No there are still 1 hour gaps plus some not calling at Banbury.

with many services running through to Southampton?

No just the hourly trains through to Bournemouth.

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Regarding doubling up, XC still operating 4.2% of voyager trains as short formations (better than previous periods 5.6% short formation, but miles away from it being an occasional rarity)

This I presume is against the plan so ignores services booked as single units when a double is required ...

....
It's very common for a 4 or 5 car to arrive at Banbury full to the point that nobody can board.

 

[TheGrew]

With the talk earlier on the thread about the requirement for a person in each unit I wonder if someone has done the analysis of more staff Vs reforming the 221s as longer units by pinching intermediate coaches. I guess some flexibility would be lost though.

 

[Russel]

If my maths is right and availability is about right I'd expect 33-34 5 car sets in service daily and 32 out of 38 4 car sets or thereabouts.

Given basically the same service as now was operated by 57 Voyagers plus a couple of HST in daily service I'd be surprised if once staffing is sorted many 4 car services run.

This should largely sort out the vast majority of overcrowding problems in normal service.

Of course they need to fix staffing as well.

They will be in a better position than they were before the HST withdrawal, given the HST's where never utilised properly.