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Interrail - Staff denied access to platform, then tried to throw us off train!

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Want to get the forum experts' opinion on an issue I had yesterday, to see whether it's worth my while making a formal complaint to the TOC involved or Interrail, or whether it'll just end up causing me more grief:

After travelling around Europe with my wife on Interrail passes with no issues, we arrived back at a London Terminus on our 'inbound travel leg,' at the end of the evening peak. Won't name the exact location or TOC for now.
We thought we had just missed a train home so put the next one into the Rail Planner App and added it to our passes.

15 mins before the train was due, went to the barrier and asked to be let through (as in my experience, the gates don't accept the pass), but was refused as the train listed on the pass was not given a platform yet. "I can't let you through until this one goes".

Eventually after some persuasion, the gateline staff member grudgingly let us through so my wife (who is mobility impaired) could sit on the seats on the platform to wait, but not without some serious 'attitude' from the staff member.

Upon arriving at the platform, we realised that the train we thought we'd missed was delayed and was still sat in the platform. We got on, stowed our luggage, found a bit of standing space in the packed train and updated our passes with the alternate journey via Rail Planner.
No problem, so we thought, bit of good lock.

Instead, a different member of staff comes running up the platform to the door we boarded at, demanding that we get off the train because our tickets weren't valid. He'd obviously been sent by the grumpy gateline staff member who'd decided to keep an eye on us and had seen us board.
Despite showing him the updated journey on our passes, he still kept insisting that we get off. When we refused, he then insisted that Interrail passes weren't valid during the peak (complete rubbish!).
When we still refused to move, he first threatened us with BTP, then that the train wouldn't go anywhere until we got off, and finally that the guard would charge us full price tickets. (Actually, the train wasn't going anywhere because the train crew were delayed on an inbound working!).

Eventually, after the repeated threats and shouting, he finally gave up and the train finally left about 20mins late once the crew showed up.
The whole experience left us deeply upset and angry, we had tickets that were valid, we were packed onto a delayed, full & standing train, and just wanted to get home, while being subjected to looks from other passengers who thought we were fare evading or the cause of the delay!

During the trip, there was no sign of the guard and the barriers were open at our destination so no issues there (though in practice, the staff there tend to be much more friendly and accommodating anyway!).

My understanding here is that what we did was perfectly valid, and it was due to the staff member not fully understanding the rules around Interrail and deciding to make up the 'not valid in peak' restriction, that we had this issue.
However I can easily see someone who was less confident of how Interrail passes work being bullied to get off the train and made to wait for the later one, or even issued with an invalid MG11.

I therefore want to complain to the TOC about the behaviour of their staff and their lack of training, but I'm concerned that by positively identifying myself, this might actually lead to more serious repercussions as I'm aware there are a number of grey areas:
  • Was the staff member right to deny us access through the gateline (it's a shared gateline with access to all platforms, and the pass would be valid on any of the trains from that station)?
  • Were we technically in the wrong updating Rail Planner after boarding instead of before (not that the app actually shows the time that the journey list was updated anyway)? The passes were still correct well before departure.
  • Would we be, legally, required to get off the train as ordered by the obnoxious staff member even though we had tickets that were perfectly valid?
I also travel through the station semi-regularly, so don't want any hassle from the same staff in future.

Keen to hear the thoughts from experts here as to whether a complaint is worthwhile, and whether it would be best to send to the TOC or Interrail.

Of course, in an ideal world, the gateline staff member should have said "Actually, the previous train to your destination is still in the platform, update your passes and feel free to hop on", but that would expect a level of staff training that would only be provided in an actual 'customer-focused' railway.
 
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Mag_seven

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WesternLancer

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The OP does not want this divulged (at least at the moment)
I suspect forum regulars can make an informed guess, given it mentions barrier line staff and lack of knowledge of peak / off peak ticket restrictions from a London terminus...

Sounds like some delay repay might be due given the trains departure delay due to crew not being ready to take the train out on time
 
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Ok, to avoid the guessing game, it was Marylebone. (I can understand how Euston and Paddington would be prime suspects here though)
My understanding is that TOC delay repay is not applicable when using Interrail and their own scheme only kicks in at 60min+
 

Adam Williams

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I've had poor experiences with MYB gateline in the past.

I think it's definitely worth a complaint if you can push for the complaint to get handled by the right people, because there are a lot of good people behind the scenes at Chiltern who will appreciate this is just silly.

It can be rather .. arduous and involve a lot of back and forth to get to that point though. It'll likely get a less useful reply initially.
 

WesternLancer

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Ok, to avoid the guessing game, it was Marylebone. (I can understand how Euston and Paddington would be prime suspects here though)
My understanding is that TOC delay repay is not applicable when using Interrail and their own scheme only kicks in at 60min+
Thanks for clarifying on both points there
 

Bletchleyite

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What is the position these days with the need to put the journey on the InterRail itinerary before making it? It used I think to be mandatory to write it in before being allowed to board. Could the original poster not simply have removed the old journey and put the new one on?

Edit: Oh, they did. In which case the staff had no basis to act as they did.
 

LYradial

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What is the position these days with the need to put the journey on the InterRail itinerary before making it? It used I think to be mandatory to write it in before being allowed to board. Could the original poster not simply have removed the old journey and put the new one on?

Edit: Oh, they did. In which case the staff had no basis to act as they did.
Except they only changed it after they had boarded and stowed their bags, so technically boarded without a valid ticket.

i am not surprised the staff were cross, having talked their way onto the platform so they could rest they promptly boarded the very train their ticket was not valid for
 
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Personally I'd chalk it up to experience and move on.

I use global interrail passes fairly regularly (always the paper version rather than electronic). In France I've been told it's not valid as I haven't had it stamped at the booking office prior to travel, in Belgium just this week I was told it I hadn't validated it when I had (it's a flexi pass and the date was written in as required), and on LNER on my return home journey I've been told it's not valid in my own country (even though it's a global pass and my return home journey).

I've always stood my ground as you did. It's an annoyance but you can't change the fact that some staff don't fully understand it.
 

Blaine

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i am not surprised the staff were cross, having talked their way onto the platform so they could rest they promptly boarded the very train their ticket was not valid for
The issue is not that the staff member boarded and told them that their ticket wasn't valid - it was that they kicked off after the passenger showed them that they had changed the ticket and it was valid on the new service.
 

AlterEgo

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Except they only changed it after they had boarded and stowed their bags, so technically boarded without a valid ticket.

i am not surprised the staff were cross, having talked their way onto the platform so they could rest they promptly boarded the very train their ticket was not valid for
That wasn't the staff's objection. They said the ticket wasn't valid during the peak, which is wrong.
 

LYradial

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The issue is not that the staff member boarded and told them that their ticket wasn't valid - it was that they kicked off after the passenger showed them that they had changed the ticket and it was valid on the new service.
Having changed it after they had boarded, so it was not valid, you must change an Interrail journey before you board

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That wasn't the staff's objection. They said the ticket wasn't valid during the peak, which is wrong.
That was during a heated discussion and possibly forgivable under the circumstances in my view
 

AlterEgo

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That was during a heated discussion and possibly forgivable under the circumstances in my view
No, it's not forgivable to tell a customer something which isn't true and which you know is not true. It undermines your authority as staff and in any case the OP didn't move. The proper response to being shown they changed the reservation is "oh okay then, that's fine".

Total nonsense by the staff member who failed to manage the conflict. Haha go and get BTP then fella. I'll stay here and wait. Go on then. Oh I'll get charged up will I? How will that work when I'm not even getting off the train after being threatened with the Big Bad Police?

Very silly. Back to roleplay school for him I'm afraid.
 

yorkie

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Please do complain. Feel free to send me a direct message with the reference number as I may know one or two people who can send it on to someone else at Chiltern who may be able to ensure it gets to the attention of someone who can do something about it.

Of course, in an ideal world, the gateline staff member should have said "Actually, the previous train to your destination is still in the platform, update your passes and feel free to hop on", but that would expect a level of staff training that would only be provided in an actual 'customer-focused' railway.
Agreed. Not many gateline staff are anywhere near this customer focussed. Those that are tend to get promoted pretty quickly. The rail industry sets low expectations.

In theory, these are the expectations of the role:
Customer Experience Ambassador London Marylebone Station Permanent £36,622 per annum

Job Purpose Playing a key role in delivering exceptional customer experiences, always striving to put the customer at the heart of everything we do and understand individual customer needs, taking ownership of tasks and situations to ensure customer excellence at every opportunity. ...
However, the reality is that poor quality applicants say "yeah I'll do those things"; companies such as Chiltern employ them on that basis, and then do not conduct any sort of mystery shopping exercises, do not implement any sorts of safeguards in place to ensure staff actually behave in a remotely respectable manner, let alone in the manner described in the job descriptions.

This is completely normal for the rail industry and there is no individual or organisation that has the knowledge, desire and power to do anything about it.
Personally I'd chalk it up to experience and move on....
Realistically you are right, because the rail industry doesn't care; the staff won't be dealt with properly (and the unions are so strong, the company probably wouldn't dare, even if they cared) and nothing will change. However it shouldn't be this way.

Maybe one day there will be a huge shift in attitude across the rail industry and incidents of this nature will be taken seriously; if enough people complain about them, maybe we'll see some changes within the next decade or so....
I've always stood my ground as you did. It's an annoyance but you can't change the fact that some staff don't fully understand it.
If I don't understand something in any job I've done, I don't use that as an excuse to pretend that people can't do things. In any job I've ever done (in variety of roles/sectors), if I behaved this way I'd expect to be told I was no longer welcome in that job.

But my expectations, given this is is a TOC and given it's a gateline role in a London terminus, are that this member of staff would barely get a speaking to, let alone any sort of appropriate disciplinary action, such are the low aspirations of TOCs for their staff to behave well, compared to any other sector I've experienced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Having changed it after they had boarded, so it was not valid, you must change an Interrail journey before you board

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


That was during a heated discussion and possibly forgivable under the circumstances in my view
You work for a TOC, don't you?
 

Lemmy99uk

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Having changed it after they had boarded, so it was not valid, you must change an Interrail journey before you board
I’ve been scrolling through the terms and conditions of the pass and can’t find any reference to adding the journey before boarding.
All it says is that the journey needs to be input so that it can be checked by the guard. Can you tell me where to find the instruction that it must be filled in before you board?
I often board a train without inputting the journey until I am sure it is going to depart on time. I have also changed trains, only to find that there is a late running connection available on an adjacent platform and have boarded and then changed the journey on the planner.
 

Watershed

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There's no excuse for this kind of nonsense and I agree that a complaint is in order.

Firstly, Interrail passes are valid at all times of day. There have never been any time restrictions on them so I have no idea where the member of staff has got that notion from. The whole point of them is that they are completely flexible, so you were quite entitled to change your plans upon seeing there was an earlier service you could catch.

Moreover, even if you had not yet entered the 'correct' train into your travel diary at the time of showing your ticket for the barrier, you still had a train from Marylebone in there and so it was a valid ticket from Marylebone. As such I see no grounds for refusing to let you through the barriers.

At the very most they could have politely let you know you'd need to change the saved train in your travel diary if you decided to catch a different one. There was certainly no need for any of the antics you describe.

Very technically speaking you are supposed to update your pass with the train you are taking before boarding (not just before departure) but as you say, there is no mechanism for retrospectively checking that this was done - it would only really be an issue in the rare event of an onboard ticket check before departure. I wouldn't mention it in your complaint because it's not relevant to the issue at hand.

With a valid ticket you have a contractual right to travel, and thus to be on the station. Byelaw 24(2) does provide that:
(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force.

However the key phrase here is "reasonably believed". Therefore any belief by the member of staff must be reasonable. I don't think there is any way that the member of staff could be regarded as having a reasonable belief your ticket wasn't valid (and thus that you were in breach of Byelaw 18), when it is a completely flexible ticket valid on any train entered into the diary. The fact that the member of staff evidently didn't know or understand this basic fact doesn't make a subsequent mistaken belief reasonable, in my view.

Unfortunately, the BTP are likely to take whatever a member of staff says at face value because they receive little to no training on ticketing and many of their officers are under the mistaken belief that staff must always be correct. For example, when I once asked the BTP to help when I was incorrectly refused entry through a barrier (incidentally also at a station near Marylebone, and on an Interrail) they deferred to the gateline staff and said "maybe it's because it's before it's 09:30", as if that had any relevance at all to Interrail!

So in a sense, it's fortunate that the BTP didn't attend in this instance, because the situation might have had a rather different (even worse) outcome if they did. But I'm nevertheless glad that you stood your ground.

Some TOCs will tell you that you can't make Delay Repay claims when using Interrail, but there is nothing in any Passenger Charter or the NRCoT that says this is the case. Even the Interrail Conditions of Use themselves do not say that the Interrail delay compensation scheme is your exclusive remedy in case of delays. Instead they say your contract for travel is with the relevant operator under their own conditions of carriage. I had to raise a complaint with Avanti about such a claim earlier this year, and they ultimately relented just before I took it to the Ombudsman.

There are some great forum members working for Chiltern who I'm sure will be reading this thread, so let's hope the situation can be resolved soon.
 

speedy1

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yorkie

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Having changed it after they had boarded, so it was not valid, you must change an Interrail journey before you board
The staff would have had no clue whether it had been amended before or after boarding the train. For all they knew, the couple might have changed it while waiting on the platform.
 

LYradial

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Please do complain. Feel free to send me a direct message with the reference number as I may know one or two people who can send it on to someone else at Chiltern who may be able to ensure it gets to the attention of someone who can do something about it.


Agreed. Not many gateline staff are anywhere near this customer focussed. Those that are tend to get promoted pretty quickly. The rail industry sets low expectations.

In theory, these are the expectations of the role:

However, the reality is that poor quality applicants say "yeah I'll do those things"; companies such as Chiltern employ them on that basis, and then do not conduct any sort of mystery shopping exercises, do not implement any sorts of safeguards in place to ensure staff actually behave in a remotely respectable manner, let alone in the manner described in the job descriptions.

This is completely normal for the rail industry and there is no individual or organisation that has the knowledge, desire and power to do anything about it.

Realistically you are right, because the rail industry doesn't care; the staff won't be dealt with properly (and the unions are so strong, the company probably wouldn't dare, even if they cared) and nothing will change. However it shouldn't be this way.

Maybe one day there will be a huge shift in attitude across the rail industry and incidents of this nature will be taken seriously; if enough people complain about them, maybe we'll see some changes within the next decade or so....



You work for a TOC, don't you?

at the age of 85 its unlikely, but one thing I have learned is that it’s best to be a bit forgiving unless you yoursellf are a paragon of virtue

if I encounter someone who is overworked, under paid, lacks training and support from his employer and is in a stressful situation then I feel as a fellow human being I should forgive him reactions and try in some way to show some understanding,
any criticism shoul be directed to his employer.

it usually works, and the compromise is beneficial to both of us but does not address the causes.

we are all human and react in many different ways, that is life.
 
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speedy1

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LittleRedTrain, exactly what happened regarding the platform access? You didn't get another member of staff to let you through/scan anything to open the barrier/etc? The person sounds way too triggered for someone who eventually relented and let you through.
 

Starmill

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Except they only changed it after they had boarded and stowed their bags, so technically boarded without a valid ticket.
Actually I've had it confirmed by the Interrail support team that you don't need to alter the journey record if disruption occurs while travelling. The previous entry may be used to travel by different trains, if they're also in the pass network, if you experience disruption. So accordingly the ticket was likely to be valid.
 

Swedenorer

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Except they only changed it after they had boarded and stowed their bags, so technically boarded without a valid ticket.

i am not surprised the staff were cross, having talked their way onto the platform so they could rest they promptly boarded the very train their ticket was not valid for
They had a ticket valid for any train leaving any platform at that terminal - end of story. It is not the role of front-line staff to be cross. But hey the railway doesn't, and really never has, cared about the customer/staff platform interface at major termini. Not really. Some of the gateline staff at Victoria are abysmal.
 
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Thanks everyone for the helpful feedback, I'm not surprised it's generated a bit of heated debate.

LittleRedTrain, exactly what happened regarding the platform access? You didn't get another member of staff to let you through/scan anything to open the barrier/etc? The person sounds way too triggered for someone who eventually relented and let you through.
It was the same member of staff who let us through. She initially refused a couple of times, but I think she eventually realised I was going to stay put and argue my case, plus saw my wife hobbling behind me with crutch and suitcase, and with a queue building behind us while we blocked the wide gate, decided it wasn't worth the fight.

Her rather 'snarky' attitude while doing so though meant I'm not surprised she relished the chance to 'get' us when she thought we were contravening the rules.

I appreciate that we may have been technically incorrect in changing the journey after rather than before stepping onto the train, but it's not like there'd be any loss to Chiltern, especially given the disruption. It's a very different scenario to only buying a ticket when seeing the guard approach!

After my relaxing holiday I've immediately been dropped into a chaotic situation at work, so will have to take some time over the weekend to decide how to proceed, once things have calmed down.

All I can say is I much preferred dealing with the unstaffed automated gates in the Netherlands, which offered far better customer service than the actual human!
 

sammyg901

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Marylebone does seem to have borrowed the Paddington hiring / training manuals recently. I overheard someone being told off peak tickets aren't valid until 9.30am around 9.15am there the other day which I'm almost certain was probably wrong as most common northbound tickets are valid before 9am (admittedly possibly for the 9.27am to Aylesbury)
 

CyrusWuff

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Marylebone does seem to have borrowed the Paddington hiring / training manuals recently. I overheard someone being told off peak tickets aren't valid until 9.30am around 9.15am there the other day which I'm almost certain was probably wrong as most common northbound tickets are valid before 9am (admittedly possibly for the 9.27am to Aylesbury)
Assuming an origin of London Terminals, there are numerous time restrictions for off-peak journeys from Marylebone. The most common ones:
  • Stations to West Ruislip/Amersham (i.e. Zones 1-9): London area, so there are only punitive Anytime fares for these journeys to encourage customers to use Contactless or Oyster Pay As You Go.
  • Denham/Great Missenden - Aylesbury Vale Parkway inclusive: Oval area. Off-Peak from 0930, PM Peak between 1600 and 1900.
  • Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Oxford/Bicester North: Off-Peak from 0830.
  • Kings Sutton and beyond: No peak restrictions leaving London when using a ticket priced by Chiltern. Tickets priced by Avanti broadly follow Chiltern's Super Off-Peak restrictions and aren't valid leaving Marylebone before 0900 nor between 1600 and 1900.

If a Freedom Pass is involved, those aren't valid before 0900 on services via Amersham (except Disabled Persons Freedom Passes, which are valid all day) or before 0930 on services via High Wycombe.
 

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