Antisocial behaviour on buses: Have we given up?

[Peter Sarf]

Agreed that anti-social behaviour on public transport (not just buses) has increased.

As to how to reduce such incidents, it shouldn’t be down to the driver/conductor. Aside from it not being their job, they are putting themselves at sometimes considerable risk against a minority, who really do not care about anything or anyone else.

There are definitely societal issues, and again, it’s not down to the transport companies to address these. What they can do is engage security staff to mitigate the worst issues, and start enforcing the rules.

Unfortunately, that costs money, both in terms of wages, but pursuing people through the legal system.

Unfortunately, such behaviour is starting to drive me away from using public transport in some circumstances. I suspect if the will is there, companies may invest more in security, but are unlikely to do so until such time as it becomes more cost effective to do so.

I notice it more. Hands free calls, vaping but also more physical stuff.

I do wonder how many of the more serious offenders have ever bought a ticket (not the speaker phone brigade).

Coupled with the fact electric buses are throwing me around more than I might be able to handle I seriously think I should use the car a lot more.

Really feels like one should not use public transport unless there is no alternative.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There’s nothing new about anti social behaviour. I don’t even think it is getting worse. I remember the glue sniffers on Bradford’s buses back in the early 90s, I remember the gangs of kids hanging round the old Bradford Interchange bus station. I remember the North London Line and the Watford DC line in the early 00s.

Headphones seem to have gone out of fashion, but boom boxes have been a thing for 50 years.

The issue with public transport is that a notable minority of the general public are arseholes. Always have been. Always will be. The only way you solve it is with staffing. We’ve had successive governments who see staffing as a cost centre to be cut. Staff-free public transport is more efficient.

 

[Kaliwax]

Not just the impact anti social behaviour has on the drivers, but the drivers families, children's, friends. The impact of getting attacked and getting conditions like PTSD or so severely injured, they might not be able to work again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I notice it more. Hands free calls, vaping but also more physical stuff.

Getting on before people have got off is one.

Being quite big and (until level boarding is more widespread) about a foot above them, I tend to do my best to block this until I'm off and speak quite rudely to those who do it. Hopefully this will cause them to get the idea.

Obviously I politely thank those who do wait for people to get off first as they should, to further encourage doing the right thing.

 

[BuhSnarf]

I think we may need to differentiate the levels of ASB here as we're classing all of it as one when it's really two seperate things although of course they can mix.

I think those groups talking loudly, parents letting their kids run round the bus screaming, playing music on their phones, watching videos on TikTok, having conversations on their phones are selfish, anti social people. Annoying but not necessarially breaking the law.

But I think those vaping, smoking, drug taking, giving the drivers physical or verbal abuse, intimidating or straight up abusing passengers are very much another thing.

The first one has definitely got much, much worse.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think we may need to differentiate the levels of ASB here as we're classing all of it as one when it's really two seperate things although of course they can mix.

I think those groups talking loudly, parents letting their kids run round the bus screaming, playing music on their phones, watching videos on TikTok, having conversations on their phones are selfish, anti social people. Annoying but not necessarially breaking the law.

But I think those vaping, smoking, drug taking, giving the drivers physical or verbal abuse, intimidating or straight up abusing passengers are very much another thing.

The first one has definitely got much, much worse.

That is true. There is what we could call behaviour borne out of ignorance.

Then there is the wilful misbehaviour - vandalism and the obvious acting up to see if they can get away with it.

 

[BuhSnarf]

That is true. There is what we could call behaviour borne out of ignorance.

Then there is the wilful misbehaviour - vandalism and the obvious acting up to see if they can get away with it.

I would argue as well that many of those doing the top one are probably decent people if you know them in their day to day life, they have just grown up or become accustomed to the post COVID culture of their phone being the centre of their world and it insulating them from seeing or considering any one around them.

They aren't actively having a conversation on the phone to annoy people, they just think it's normal because everyone does it and it seems since COVID that some people are afraid or unable to be in their own company and so have to stay in constant communication with people on the phone. They don't think that swiping through TikTok is annoying because everyone else does it.

We're probably all quite guilty of accidentally doing something to annoy people without realising it and probably came across as anti-social which had we been in a different setting we wouldn't do.

 

[GusB]

Indeed. I note your self-policing of speech...

3..2...1.. Accusations of being a Nazi...

This is rather bizarre. Why would anyone accuse you of being a Nazi? Please enlighten us!

If buses were more efficient, a lot of these nuisances would be less impactful. When you get a London bus which stops every 400 metres, then dwells for 10 minutes for a driver change...

The efficiency of the service has nothing to do with it. My local bus route doesn't stop every 400 metres and there's every chance that I'll experience someone playing music/YouTube on their phone.

There’s nothing new about anti social behaviour. I don’t even think it is getting worse. I remember the glue sniffers on Bradford’s buses back in the early 90s, I remember the gangs of kids hanging round the old Bradford Interchange bus station. I remember the North London Line and the Watford DC line in the early 00s.

Headphones seem to have gone out of fashion, but boom boxes have been a thing for 50 years.

The issue with public transport is that a notable minority of the general public are arseholes. Always have been. Always will be. The only way you solve it is with staffing. We’ve had successive governments who see staffing as a cost centre to be cut. Staff-free public transport is more efficient.

This. I grew up in the Walkman era (other brands of personal stereo were available) and the most annoying thing then was sound leaking from headphones, especially if the music wasn't to your personal taste. On more than one occasion I've asked someone to either turn the volume down so that nobody else can hear, or turn it up so that we can all hear it properly. Most reasonable people would sheepishly apologise because they simply didn't realise that their actions were causing a nuisance.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would argue as well that many of those doing the top one are probably decent people if you know them in their day to day life, they have just grown up or become accustomed to the post COVID culture of their phone being the centre of their world and it insulating them from seeing or considering any one around them.

They aren't actively having a conversation on the phone to annoy people, they just think it's normal because everyone does it and it seems since COVID that some people are afraid or unable to be in their own company and so have to stay in constant communication with people on the phone. They don't think that swiping through TikTok is annoying because everyone else does it.

We're probably all quite guilty of accidentally doing something to annoy people without realising it and probably came across as anti-social which had we been in a different setting we wouldn't do.

I agree. That low level forgetting consideration for others is exacerbated by people around them just wanting to "mind their own business" these days. As a society we seem to be becoming more insular perhaps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 08:43 ==

This is rather bizarre. Why would anyone accuse you of being a Nazi? Please enlighten us!


The efficiency of the service has nothing to do with it. My local bus route doesn't stop every 400 metres and there's every chance that I'll experience someone playing music/YouTube on their phone.


This. I grew up in the Walkman era (other brands of personal stereo were available) and the most annoying thing then was sound leaking from headphones, especially if the music wasn't to your personal taste. On more than one occasion I've asked someone to either turn the volume down so that nobody else can hear, or turn it up so that we can all hear it properly. Most reasonable people would sheepishly apologise because they simply didn't realise that their actions were causing a nuisance.

This is one of the things to watch. How good are people at telling other people off ?.
Well it should not be a telling off but a gentle reminder. Tone of voice can inadvertently convey a lot of aggression - and lets face it, if everyone is scared to point out something face to face then anyone who is prepared to do it will either be very confident or very fed up by the time they do "complain".

 

[8ace]

People who insist on alighting from the front door instead of the middle door, just because it's five yards closer to where they are going
Bay seating is another thing that doesn't help - it just encourages people to put their feet up on the rear-facing seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bay seating is another thing that doesn't help - it just encourages people to put their feet up on the rear-facing seats.

That was always so. The layout is limited by the wheelarch, but you can do other things like have it side facing or one operator made the seats tip up so when nobody is sitting there they raise, leaving the wheelarch underneath where feet can be placed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That was always so. The layout is limited by the wheelarch, but you can do other things like have it side facing or one operator made the seats tip up so when nobody is sitting there they raise, leaving the wheelarch underneath where feet can be placed.

I have always though. Emroidering "Feet Off Seats" on the beck of the opposite seat might help. Tip up seats is more reliable though !.

Then you have those (not on busses) who insist on sitting on the seat back ("perched") with their feet where a normal persons back side goes!.

 

[8ace]

That was always so. The layout is limited by the wheelarch, but you can do other things like have it side facing or one operator made the seats tip up so when nobody is sitting there they raise, leaving the wheelarch underneath where feet can be placed.

True but this doesn't apply on the top deck!

 

[Bletchleyite]

True but this doesn't apply on the top deck!

Upstairs it's more of a tradeoff between feet on seats and people vandalising the seat backs as it's less visible to CCTV etc. Feet on seats may be a lesser evil.

 

[Tetragon213]

This is rather bizarre. Why would anyone accuse you of being a Nazi? Please enlighten us!

I think this was addressed towards me for an earlier comment. I am just as confused as you are as to what they meant by this comment!

 

[Trackman]

So on Sunday I was on the bus and some idiot was talking on his phone on loudspeaker....

This one really annoys me, and they always talk at top note too.The thing is, these conversations seem to be mainly small-talk, it's like 'Look at me!'

There was a girl, again at top volume on to the credit card company as it as hadnt been activated, they read out the card number and CVV! I sighed and muttered something under my breath, the guy sat in front me turned around smiled and nodded at me with acknowledgement.

 

[duncombec]

There was a girl, again at top volume on to the credit card company as it as hadnt been activated, they read out the card number and CVV! I sighed and muttered something under my breath, the guy sat in front me turned around smiled and nodded at me with acknowledgement.

That's where you shout back "thanks for that... I've made a note for my next Amazon purchase!"

I found myself in an awkward situation a couple of years ago. Having determined I'd be safe from a GP call-back once they closed, I was somewhat surprised to get a text just as I was going out telling me they'd phone that evening. Lo and behold, they phone just as I've got on a bus. Thankfully not busy, and the GOP did an excellent job of asking questions that I could answer yes/no or with limited detail!

Back to the more general thread, as others have said, I think there's a bit of conflation here between the mildly annoying end of anti-social behaviour (ASB) - the things like overly boisterous conversations, playing music out loud, feet on seats etc. - and the more series end, such as vaping or vandalism. The former has, I'm afraid, always been a part of society, and anybody who doesn't think so has either never left a very well-heeled area or is looking through rose-tinted glasses. Indeed, they may once have done something other people would consider ASB themselves! If you're going to bother with the former at all, it is best addressed gently. No operator is going to want headlines "thuggish security guards forced my 13 year old off the bus in the middle of nowhere after he left his headphones at home".

The better focus would be on the more serious end of the scale - I admit to being quite shocked at how many teenagers were vaping on a bus in Todmorden back in 2022 (being a visitor, I didn't realise quite so many scholars would use the regular service bus to Halifax), as that doesn't seem to be "a thing" here... mostly the odd 20-something who can't wait an extra few stops to get their next puff.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Upstairs it's more of a tradeoff between feet on seats and people vandalising the seat backs as it's less visible to CCTV etc. Feet on seats may be a lesser evil.

Agree, unless your shoes are dirty I don't really see a problem with feet on seats.

I travelled behind an elderly man the other week who managed to get his legs over the seats in front of him on a Stagecoach E200 which I thought was pretty impressive (if surely not uncomfortable.) I didn't even notice at the time until I was editing the video

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree, unless your shoes are dirty I don't really see a problem with feet on seats.

Your shoes have been on the floor, ergo they are dirty. They should not be placed on the seats.

It's a lesser problem than other forms of ASB, but I certainly do see a problem with it. If you must do it remove your shoes and put your socked feet on the seat, that's no worse than any other clothed part of your body, though it does seem to ick some people out even so.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Your shoes have been on the floor, ergo they are dirty. They should not be placed on the seats.

It's a lesser problem than other forms of ASB, but I certainly do see a problem with it. If you must do it remove your shoes and put your socked feet on the seat, that's no worse than any other clothed part of your body, though it does seem to ick some people out even so.

I'd rather someone's shoed feet be on the chair than some cheesy socks! But as I'm not going to be eating from the seat I consider the chair seat to always be dirty anyway. The seat has been in contact with everyone's backsides which may have been sat on the floor, outdoor benches, grass or if even not it's gonna be disgusting from farts and all.

I doubt my shoes will make a noticeable difference and sometimes it's nice on a long journey to rest them - of course if anyone asked me to move them I would.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather someone's shoed feet be on the chair than some cheesy socks!

You'd rather animal faeces and urine on the seat than a pair of socked feet which are clean (if a little sweaty) because they've gone straight from the shower into socks and shoes and never touched an external surface?

A lot of people do have strange hangups about feet, but they're likely the cleanest part of the body as they pretty much never contact anything outside the house.

But as I'm not going to be eating from the seat I consider the chair seat to always be dirty anyway. The seat has been in contact with everyone's backsides which may have been sat on the floor, outdoor benches, grass or if even not it's gonna be disgusting from farts and all.

I don't habitually sit in the kind of unpleasant things that go on your shoes from the ground. Most people don't habitually sit on the floor.

I doubt my shoes will make a noticeable difference and sometimes it's nice on a long journey to rest them - of course if anyone asked me to move them I would.

Seriously, please don't. It's a pretty horrible habit.

Maybe we do need Merseyrail style enforcement everywhere.

 

[8ace]

I'd rather not have any feet on seat, shoe'd or otherwise. You certainly wouldn't want to me to take my shoes off! Another issue with it is excessive wear on the edge of the seat where the soles of their feet are rested.

 

[BuhSnarf]

You'd rather animal faeces and urine on the seat than a pair of socked feet which are clean (if a little sweaty) because they've gone straight from the shower into socks and shoes and never touched an external surface?

As I said above, I don't really care what's on the seat as my skin doesn't come in to contact with it, but someone getting their feet out of their shoes can often cause an unpleasant smell which will make the journey more unpleasant than their shoes being on the chair - for me, yes.

A lot of people do have strange hangups about feet, but they're likely the cleanest part of the body as they pretty much never contact anything outside the house.

You assume that everyone showers every day and people don't walk around barefoot! Have you seen some of the people that use the bus

I don't habitually sit in the kind of unpleasant things that go on your shoes from the ground. Most people don't habitually sit on the floor.

You don't sit on the grass when it's nice out and you're in a park? You don't perch on a wall when waiting for a bus? You don't sit on a bench outdoors? If you're sitting on a bus seat you're sitting on more unpleasant things with all the dead skin, food crumbs, sweat, oil etc. etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I said above, I don't really care what's on the seat as my skin doesn't come in to contact with it

I do care if my trousers get dog dirt on them and it's spread to other things including my desk chair and sofa.

but someone getting their feet out of their shoes can often cause an unpleasant smell which will make the journey more unpleasant than their shoes being on the chair - for me, yes.

Then we could settle on "no feet on the seat under any circumstances" which I believe is what Merseyrail enforces - very strictly too.

You assume that everyone showers every day and people don't walk around barefoot! Have you seen some of the people that use the bus

You don't sit on the grass when it's nice out and you're in a park? You don't perch on a wall when waiting for a bus? You don't sit on a bench outdoors? If you're sitting on a bus seat you're sitting on more unpleasant things with all the dead skin, food crumbs, sweat, oil etc. etc.

There's nothing more unpleasant than dog dirt and the likes. Shoes are dirty - dirtier than anything else. Keep them on the floor where they belong.

 

[BuhSnarf]

When did anyone say about putting their shoes on the chair with dog dirt on them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When did anyone say about putting their shoes on the chair with dog dirt on them?

Shoes spend all their time walking around the dirty ground which features all manner of detritus including that. Keep them off the seat. It's that simple.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Shoes spend all their time walking around the dirty ground which features all manner of detritus including that. Keep them off the seat. It's that simple.

And if I stepped in dog dirt then I wouldn't be boarding the bus, let alone putting them on a chair!

 

[bramling]

And if I stepped in dog dirt then I wouldn't be boarding the bus, let alone putting them on a chair!

Can’t help but feel this is all being somewhat overplayed. Yes feet on the seats should certainly be discouraged, but frankly it is nowhere near top of my list of nuisance behaviours which I’d be keen to see tackled. If you sit on a transport seat then you are essentially accepting that it could well probably have been completely trashed the previous evening with people throwing up all over it and other unmentionable things.

Far more of a priority for me is people playing stuff out loud on devices, which has reached endemic levels.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Far more of a priority for me is people playing stuff out loud on devices, which has reached endemic levels.

Both feet on seats and loud music/phone calls are annoying nuisances. There's far worse behaviour that needs to be tackled like vaping onboard and harassment towards drivers and other passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can’t help but feel this is all being somewhat overplayed. Yes feet on the seats should certainly be discouraged, but frankly it is nowhere near top of my list of nuisance behaviours which I’d be keen to see tackled.

It's not either/or. If you have people like Merseyrail's enforcement officers, they can and should enforce against ALL antisocial behaviour. Nothing is gained by having them limited to a subset of it.