Antisocial behaviour on buses: Have we given up?

[mikeg]

So on Sunday I was on the bus and some idiot was talking on his phone on loudspeaker. It was actually another driver (not driving this service but in uniform, presumably off duty or on some sort of positioning move). Currently I’m sat before some chavvy lumpen type who thinks it’s ok to vape on the bus. Twice in a week.
I’ve spoken to drivers about such behaviour before. They usually have a ‘quiet word’ only for such behaviour to continue. Honestly I can do that. What’s the point in having a conditions of travel if your own staff break it and you can’t be bothered to enforce it? #lazydrivers.

It’s not the only trouble I’ve had. When I’ve told such people what I think (the troublemakers, not the drivers that is) I’ve been told I’ve been abusive when in reality I believe my words fall under the category of ‘fair comment’. On one occasion the driver seemed to side with the antisocial passengers in such a case. So why the double standards?
It seems those who commit antisocial behaviour are encouraged , and those who confront them discouraged. Why is this?

 

[Eyersey468]

Unfortunately there seem to be more and more selfish and self entitled people about these days. We get sick of telling people about phones being on speaker as it happens every day and often we get ignored

 

[rwblake]

Some buses in Bristol have a stern announcement about once per journey: "Do not play music or videos out loud on public transport. Use headphones or earphones." You can't miss it.

 

[mangad]

The staff are likely told not to engage, to not do things. Why? Because of the risk of them putting their life in danger from violence. it's exactly the same as when people walk into branches of Greggs, steal everything from the shelves and brazenly walk out whilst the staff stand there. They're told not to put themselves at risk.

And I totally get why employers do this. Unfortunately it makes people more brazen because they know they can get away with poor behaviour because no one will stop them. So it compounds the problem.

I don't know what the solution is. But I don't blame the drivers by any means.

 

[MartinC]

I suspect it may be absence of "back up"
Some years ago, when we still had local police stations, our local late night bus would drive , with closed doors, to the local police station. Mainly for attention to the back seat druggies.

 

[Kaliwax]

Why would the driver want to put themselves in danger? You never know what people could be hiding

Maybe these days seeing we have a shortage of drivers, it's also not worth the risk drivers getting hurt and being off work for a period of time as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know what the solution is.

The same as it is for rail. Security guards whose role it is to engage with miscreants, physically if necessary, and a robust system of enforcement i.e. prosecuting people for this act which is already illegal in rail's case.

Merseyrail provide a bit of a template for it with their feet on seats enforcement.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

About twenty years ago I was on a bus in Leeds seated at the front upstairs. At the back were two lads. During the journey they decided to attempt to smoke whatever drugs they had just purchased, I don't know what the substance was but it smelt like burning plastic mixed with soot.
I shouted down the bus for them to stop as I didn't want to breathe in whatever it was. They told me that their duck had a cough (or something that sounded similar) and offered to rearrange my facial features.
Luckily one of them decided I was "Deano's cousin." Nobody in my family is called Dean, but they were sufficiently scared of him/me to not inflict physical violence on me and indeed to stop smoking the substance.
I left the bus before them and was sure to give them a hard stare before descending the stairs, just for effect!

The point is had I not resembled Deano's cousin I would have had my head kicked in, and this is why drivers don't tackle people. They are not lazy, with or without a hashtag, they just want to return home safely to their families at the end of the shift, as do all workers.

To illustrate the dangers my now ex was on another Leeds bus when armed police descended on it because one of the passengers was carrying a handgun. Do you fancy telling him to turn his music down?!

 

[Farigiraf]

I’ve spoken to drivers about such behaviour before. They usually have a ‘quiet word’ only for such behaviour to continue. Honestly I can do that. What’s the point in having a conditions of travel if your own staff break it and you can’t be bothered to enforce it? #lazydrivers.

It's not in their job description to put themselves in danger on a near-daily basis. If you were in their position, with a bus that has to run to schedule and very limited conflict resolution training, would you confront them? It's an incident waiting to happen. Spare a thought for all the female and/or ethnic minority drivers as well - are they lazy for not wanting to confront a dangerous and disruptive person?

It seems those who commit antisocial behaviour are encouraged , and those who confront them discouraged. Why is this?

You know well that's quite the generalisation, but again I imagine that the main goal for the bus driver in such situations is to avoid incidents, and it's probably easier for them to ask you to stop rather than the person committing ASB.

So on Sunday I was on the bus and some idiot was talking on his phone on loudspeaker. It was actually another driver (not driving this service but in uniform, presumably off duty or on some sort of positioning move). Currently I’m sat before some chavvy lumpen type who thinks it’s ok to vape on the bus. Twice in a week.

I think it's less that we've "given up" and more that public transport (urban buses in particular) in Britain is becoming increasingly Americanised - a sort of self-fulfilling stigma around the stereotypical public transport ride involving 'crazy people' (i.e. mental health difficulties, ASB, or ingesting some kind of substance).

It's a consequence of the decrease in usefulness of buses (a combination of continuous cuts, neglect, and hostile urban design) meaning that, like in America (and countless other places), in many towns and cities, most people taking public transport are those who cannot (or are not allowed to) drive as anyone with the option to would just drive. Lower income areas will naturally have more demand for buses but also below-average education quality and therefore more ASB, so places with more buses will also have more incidents occuring. It makes it seem disproportionately common - chances are the bus that runs 2x a day to the nearby leafy suburb isn't going to be as unpleasant but few people actually use these buses!

Therefore the amount of non-disruptive people taking the bus (due to disabilities, income, age, environmentalism, a hobby, or simply because the bus happens to be a useful option) becomes more of a minority which creates more of a safe space for the antisocial types. A self reinforcing stigma.

Bus drivers can't police their own buses perfectly, and putting security guards on buses isn't really a sustainable measure either, so ultimately it's not really something that the bus company can necessarily fix just like that. Make the buses more useful for normal people (which is needed anyway in car-dependent towns and cities with chronic traffic congestion), improve the schools and community infrastructure, the usual stuff.

 

[Magdalia]

It isn't all doom and gloom. Stagecoach East has a "Safe Space" initiative, that has been running for about 2 years now, see here:

Stagecoach East's 'safe space' buses for women hailed success

The company says its drivers are helping "numerous" women and girls since launching the scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bus drivers have stepped in "numerous times" to assist potentially vulnerable or abused women since a new scheme was launched three months ago.

Stagecoach East has joined Businesses Against Abuse, external across Cambridgeshire, Peterborough and Bedfordshire, with the collaboration of police forces and rape crisis groups.

Drivers have been trained to recognise if someone may be in danger on the street and been authorised to pull over and ask if they need help, before taking them to a safe place on route.

Director Darren Roe said successes included diverting a bus "to take a vulnerable woman to a safe area" and "direct interventions to keep predators away from a young girl, one of whom was arrested".

The bus in the special livery is here:

10464 SN65ANZX Stagecoach East

Seen departing from Cambridge city centre Drummer street bus station Stagecoach East E400MMC 10464 SN65NZX in it's new Safer street and against abuse blue livery.

www.flickr.com

 

[BuhSnarf]

I don't think buses have given up any more than any other area of society has "given up." Antisocial behaviour has been happening for MANY years on buses, trains, in the street and in shops.

I think there are a few key differences:

* Social media - two fold - anti social behaviour can often be recorded for boasting on social media, thus encouraging poor behaviour. But also, as well, it's amplified on social media meaning that people see more instances of ASB rather than what they'd normally see or hear about. For example Facebook at the moment seems to love showing me videos shops have posted about people thieving from them. Therefore I'm more aware of it. Even though, I know from when I used to work in retail about 20 years ago that it was incredibly common also then.
* Lack of prevention and consequences - we have run all of our services right to the bone that there is little community outreach or resources to give them something else to do and the Police are so stretched they are unlikely to do anything to someone smoking on a bus. Although, I will say smoking on buses has been there for years, at least now a days it's vaping which tends to not stink out the top deck no matter whether windows are open or not.
* Lack of intervention - someone doing something anti socially before would have been confronted by members of the public, but sadly due to a number of "good Samaritans" getting injured when trying to intervene the majority of the public now would rather be hands off.
* Selfishness - not everyone causing ASB is a criminal, many are just normal folk (like the driver on the phone) - the issue is post-COVID people have become much more selfish or self entitled and are oblivious or uncaring about the impact their behaviour has on others around them.

How do you fix it? To really fix it you need societal change but that is MEGA expensive.

A "cheap" fix to limit it? Security officers with some form of power, increased policing and consequences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, thanks @Magdalia . I had wondered why Stagecoach had been putting "this bus is a safe space" on the destination displays (not the best place for it) and had wondered if it was some kind of diversity initiative, but it seems from what you say it's something more than that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 13:00 ==

How do you fix it? To really fix it you need societal change but that is MEGA expensive.

A "cheap" fix to limit it? Security officers with some form of power, increased policing and consequences.

I think what you basically have is a sad transition from a high trust society (somewhere like Switzerland still is - a country where people believe in doing the right thing regardless of consequences) to a low trust society (one where the consequences are necessary). Transitioning back is indeed hard, but you can at least put the consequences in place, e.g. gatelines, security guards etc. Merseyrail have done quite well with the latter, though haven't really changed the former (it's always been the case from day one, except a short cost-cutting time under MTL, that the major stations were gated* and the smaller ones not).

Harder to do with buses of course.

* Manually back in the 70s of course.

 

[Megafuss]

Re people playing loud music. Its definitely got worse since phone manufacturers stopped putting earphones in the boxes of new devices.

 

[anthony263]

A lot of drivers these days will wear stab vests including myself. Ive had issues and still do with teenagers who think.they are untouchable.

Police officer I was talking to recently about it has said we need to start wearing body cams and its been brought up ro.our union

 

[BuhSnarf]

A lot of drivers these days will wear stab vests including myself. Ive had issues and still do with teenagers who think.they are untouchable.

Police officer I was talking to recently about it has said we need to start wearing body cams and its been brought up ro.our union

But surely there is already a large amount of CCTV on the bus that doesn't discourage the idiots, why do they think a bodycam will - or is it purely because it gives a better image and audio of the person and the position you found yourself in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But surely there is already a large amount of CCTV on the bus that doesn't discourage the idiots, why do they think a bodycam will - or is it purely because it gives a better image and audio of the person and the position you found yourself in?

It's very visible - you always see it when talking to the person. Thus it's greater deterrent than a reasonably hidden camera covering the bus generally.

 

[Tetragon213]

The same as it is for rail. Security guards whose role it is to engage with miscreants, physically if necessary, and a robust system of enforcement i.e. prosecuting people for this act which is already illegal in rail's case.

Merseyrail provide a bit of a template for it with their feet on seats enforcement.

Problem there is, the portion of the clientele of the public transport that is known for blasting music out loud or being obnoxious, has a rather alarming overlap with the portion of (un)-civilised society that is rather fond of bladed and/or heavy articles, and a complete lack of comprehension of the term "consequences"; the portion of society that settles things at the tip of a knife or other weapon of choice, e.g. a horseshoe or a gun.

https://people.com/father-killex-bronx-bus-telling-rider-talking-loud-11995294

Thomas Parker murder: Man jailed for horseshoe attack

Kirkpatrick Virgo attacked Thomas Parker after an argument over music being played on their train.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem there is, the portion of the clientele of the public transport that is known for blasting music out loud or being obnoxious, has a rather alarming overlap with the portion of (un)-civilised society that is rather fond of bladed and/or heavy articles, and a complete lack of comprehension of the term "consequences"; the portion of society that settles things at the tip of a knife or other weapon of choice, e.g. a horseshoe or a gun.

It's not a problem in that sense, you just have to employ the right people who are willing to take personal risk and conflict, sometimes physical and involving weapons, as part of their job. Every nightclub has at least one so these people exist. Most people doing this sort of job quite like it.

The ultimate conclusion of what you say is that we don't bother with police and just end up with a society led by crime, e.g. urban South Africa.

 

[speedy1]

Problem there is, the portion of the clientele of the public transport that is known for blasting music out loud or being obnoxious, has a rather alarming overlap with the portion of (un)-civilised society that is rather fond of bladed and/or heavy articles

Indeed. I note your self-policing of speech...

3..2...1.. Accusations of being a Nazi...

 

[BuhSnarf]

But surely there is already a large amount of CCTV on the bus that doesn't discourage the idiots, why do they think a bodycam will - or is it purely because it gives a better image and audio of the person and the position you found yourself in?

This is true, it would be interesting to see from a psychological perspective whether it does defuse a situation with a bus driver/security staff wearing a bodycam.

I guess it would all depend on what happens with the bodycam footage, if the scumbags of the world know that it ends up getting used for prosecution versus if they know in most cases the police won't bother doing anything will depend on how they act?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Some buses in Bristol have a stern announcement about once per journey: "Do not play music or videos out loud on public transport. Use headphones or earphones." You can't miss it.

Likewise, Transdev Blazefield have an onboard announcement that says "Please respect our customers and colleagues. Please stop vaping on the bus." It can be activated by the driver should they need to use it. I've heard it multiple times on a single journey and in my opinion, sounds more sternly than the usual next stop announcements.

 

[Polarbear]

Agreed that anti-social behaviour on public transport (not just buses) has increased.

As to how to reduce such incidents, it shouldn’t be down to the driver/conductor. Aside from it not being their job, they are putting themselves at sometimes considerable risk against a minority, who really do not care about anything or anyone else.

There are definitely societal issues, and again, it’s not down to the transport companies to address these. What they can do is engage security staff to mitigate the worst issues, and start enforcing the rules.

Unfortunately, that costs money, both in terms of wages, but pursuing people through the legal system.

Unfortunately, such behaviour is starting to drive me away from using public transport in some circumstances. I suspect if the will is there, companies may invest more in security, but are unlikely to do so until such time as it becomes more cost effective to do so.

 

[Tetragon213]

It's not a problem in that sense, you just have to employ the right people who are willing to take personal risk and conflict, sometimes physical and involving weapons, as part of their job. Every nightclub has at least one so these people exist. Most people doing this sort of job quite like it.

The ultimate conclusion of what you say is that we don't bother with police and just end up with a society led by crime, e.g. urban South Africa.

I'd be in favour of having a lot more police around to "keep the peace" so to speak. It's just that hiring is in a bit of a difficult spot owing to the increased danger in modern society, and a difficult situation with regards to pay. Also, you run into the issue of certain bleeding heart types complaining about police states if you so much as propose anything resembling good order...

I will say, the people who do security jobs of that ilk are a different breed. I know my limits (both mental and physical), and would struggle in such a job! Utmost respect to the lads who do that for a living!

Indeed. I note your self-policing of speech...

3..2...1.. Accusations of being a Nazi...

?????

Likewise, Transdev Blazefield have an onboard announcement that says "Please respect our customers and colleagues. Please stop vaping on the bus." It can be activated by the driver should they need to use it. I've heard it multiple times on a single journey and in my opinion, sounds more sternly than the usual next stop announcements.

I suspect that would get ignored quite a bit.

 

[joieman]

Indeed. I note your self-policing of speech...

3..2...1.. Accusations of being a Nazi...

How come? The sort of people I think are being described are (probably white) ruffians living in council estates.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I suspect that would get ignored quite a bit.

Of course, especially if the person vaping is listening to music loudly or is on a phone call. Although the typical onboard signage about vaping and smoking will also get ignored.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Likewise, Transdev Blazefield have an onboard announcement that says "Please respect our customers and colleagues. Please stop vaping on the bus." It can be activated by the driver should they need to use it. I've heard it multiple times on a single journey and in my opinion, sounds more sternly than the usual next stop announcements.

That just reminds me of the YouTube video from a few years ago where a TfL bus driver spams the CCTV in operation button after some miscreants on the upper deck were banging around who then start to shout abuse about not pressing the button. They did eventually get off the bus, mind.

Agreed that anti-social behaviour on public transport (not just buses) has increased.

Is there any evidence to back this up. I recall public transport in the 80s/90s being a lot more wild west than they are now. Especially in London.

As to how to reduce such incidents, it shouldn’t be down to the driver/conductor. Aside from it not being their job, they are putting themselves at sometimes considerable risk against a minority, who really do not care about anything or anyone else.

There are definitely societal issues, and again, it’s not down to the transport companies to address these. What they can do is engage security staff to mitigate the worst issues, and start enforcing the rules.

Agree, but they are the only authority on the bus. It's no good saying it's down to security staff as unless you have a member of security staff on every bus or easily summoned by the driver they're ineffective. Which means having absolutely tons of security staff potentially doing nothing for large portions of the day. It's the issue we find with the BTP, they have such a large area of ground to cover that there is often not one in the right place at the right time.

Public transport companies can't afford to invest in security forces due to the razor thin margins they operate under already. So it falls to the council who also don't have funding and then to the Police who... you guessed it... don't have the funding!

 

[Ballyheigue]

I once said to a dunce on a bus who threatened me 'what, you're going to get into a fight whereby I won't stop until one of us is dead, so you may end up killing me on this bus full of CCTV and witnesses, not to mention street CCTV probably nearby, you really are a dunce aren't you' followed by a not bothered one bit about you type laugh! He soon shut up. Turn into an educated psychopath and they soon shut up.

Vapers are another source of pleasure, just tell them straight that what they're vaping is an unknown substance, it could end up containing something that 20 years down the line causes them a serious illness, after all some people have seen their lungs suddenly collapse due to them so it's fine, carry on vaping, take in as much as you like, you don't know what goes into it but someone does and like me they couldn't care less about you!

 

[Andyh82]

Is there any evidence to back this up. I recall public transport in the 80s/90s being a lot more wild west than they are now. Especially in London.

I think the difference is that the anti social behaviour now takes place in the middle of the day on busy buses, not just on late night buses

Get on a London bus or any city bus, and it’s likely there will be umpteen loud speaker calls on the go, or loud speaker music or TikTok clips being played. Some people seem to have a call on the go permanently, almost like they are just carrying round their friend or family whilst they both carry out their daily business.

It’s worse on electric buses as the engine doesn’t block it out

On trains it isn’t even just the lower end of society, you get middle class types letting their little darlings watch videos out loud, because the whole world revolves around them

 

[Cdd89]

If buses were more efficient, a lot of these nuisances would be less impactful. When you get a London bus which stops every 400 metres, then dwells for 10 minutes for a driver change...

 

[Tetragon213]

I once said to a dunce on a bus who threatened me 'what, you're going to get into a fight whereby I won't stop until one of us is dead, so you may end up killing me on this bus full of CCTV and witnesses, not to mention street CCTV probably nearby, you really are a dunce aren't you' followed by a not bothered one bit about you type laugh! He soon shut up. Turn into an educated psychopath and they soon shut up.

Vapers are another source of pleasure, just tell them straight that what they're vaping is an unknown substance, it could end up containing something that 20 years down the line causes them a serious illness, after all some people have seen their lungs suddenly collapse due to them so it's fine, carry on vaping, take in as much as you like, you don't know what goes into it but someone does and like me they couldn't care less about you!

As I posted earlier...

Thomas Parker murder: Man jailed for horseshoe attack

Kirkpatrick Virgo attacked Thomas Parker after an argument over music being played on their train.

www.bbc.co.uk

Some of them really don't give 2 tosses about the consequences. I commend you for your bravery on that front, but I have too much to lose to risk some nutter with a horseshoe beating me to death, and leaving my family with a death to contend with.