Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[InTheEastMids]

Lord Hendy has got around to replying to a July letter from the MP for Harborough & Wigston, Neil O'Brien regarding EMR's performance.
Three pages of ministerial blather that didn't seem to add to what is already known. However, feel free to read it yourself by following the link to Facebook, if you wish (I don't think you need an account to see this page).

Neil O’Brien

Neil O’Brien. 10,755 followers · 500 talking about this. Neil O'Brien, Conservative MP for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston. Promoted by Neil O'Brien of St. Mary's House, 1-5 St. Mary's Road, Market...

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A couple of quotes, which may add confirmation to why strikes were cancelled, that Cl222 leases are being extended if possible, and they are still working on backfill options (presumably Cl221).

I am pleased to advise a software fix has resolved the AUX on/off issue

A number of alternative fleet options have been identified and investigated. Some were not deemed to be viable and EMR are continuing to work with the industry on the remaining options, along with the retaining the Class 222s longer for the full timetable to be reinstated

 

[WesternLancer]

Lord Hendy has got around to replying to a July letter from the MP for Harborough & Wigston, Neil O'Brien regarding EMR's performance.
Three pages of ministerial blather that didn't seem to add to what is already known. However, feel free to read it yourself by following the link to Facebook, if you wish (I don't think you need an account to see this page).

Neil O’Brien

Neil O’Brien. 10,755 followers · 500 talking about this. Neil O'Brien, Conservative MP for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston. Promoted by Neil O'Brien of St. Mary's House, 1-5 St. Mary's Road, Market...

www.facebook.com

A couple of quotes, which may add confirmation to why strikes were cancelled, that Cl222 leases are being extended if possible, and they are still working on backfill options (presumably Cl221).

Bottom of page 2 of note where it appears a previous reply (possibly from Minister but not clear) indicated that passengers forced to stand could claim Delay-Repay and apologising for this duff info.....

Ooops, suggests to me that whoever drafts this stuff isn't very au fait with making D-R claims themselves!

 

[MargaretNoodle]

According to RTT "problem with the traction equipment" on 810 011 has caused the 19:35 St Pancras to Nottingham to be terminated early at Leicester tonight with the knock on effect of cancelling the last southbound train of the day from Nottingham.

Strange though because it looks like the unit sat in Leicester P2 for almost 2 hours before forming a 22:32 passenger service to Derby.

 

[liamf656]

T19 is now going to Long Marston instead of the previously mentioned Newton Aycliffe

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04845/2026-10-05/detailed

 

[londonmidland]

Not good for people travelling to London from Sheffield today, as both the 11:37 and 12:00 to London were cancelled from here.

 

[tram21]

Not good for people travelling to London from Sheffield today, as both the 11:37 and 12:00 to London were cancelled from here.

Was this due to 810 or 222 failures?

 

[londonmidland]

Was this due to 810 or 222 failures?

At least one of those was an 810 failure/issue.

 

[DerbySplitter]

010 terminated at Derby (16.08 to STP).
"Traction equipment fault".

I'm supposed to be on that journey tomorrow, so fingers crossed.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Out of 6 units started the day two, 010 and 022 both failed.

 

[Paul472426]

010 terminated at Derby (16.08 to STP).
"Traction equipment fault".

I'm supposed to be on that journey tomorrow, so fingers crossed.

There was nothing wrong with the traction equipment, trust me

 

[Spartacus]

There was nothing wrong with the traction equipment, trust me

What do TLC & The Stone Roses have in common....

 

[Paul472426]

Absolutely nothing?

 

[londonmidland]

810011 terminated short at Derby this morning due to ‘a fault on this train’.

 

[tram21]

There was nothing wrong with the traction equipment, trust me

What happened then?

 

[Paul472426]

What happened then?

HVAC issue

 

[Spartacus]

Absolutely nothing?

Both sang about waterfalls

 

[Paul472426]

Both sang about waterfalls

Both sang about waterfalls

Ha, so they did, but don't think there was one yesterday, didn't see anyone with a raincoat, just the H was overpowering the VAC

 

[londonmidland]

810018 cancelled from Nottingham due to ‘a problem with the brakes’ (sander issue)

 

[810013]

I think we're back to Pre timetable change failures....

I feel Hitachi when pressure was put on them managed to "Fix" these units but as soon as that pressure was lifted from them the level of failures have come back.

I'm doubting the October 19th Timetable change now.

 

[800001]

I think we're back to Pre timetable change failures....

I feel Hitachi when pressure was put on them managed to "Fix" these units but as soon as that pressure was lifted from them the level of failures have come back.

I'm doubting the October 19th Timetable change now.

I very much doubt the pressure has lifted, after all they have not accepted any more units for several weeks. Indicating focus is very much on the units accepted and getting them to a standard that they should already of been at.

 

[Spartacus]

I think we're back to Pre timetable change failures....

I feel Hitachi when pressure was put on them managed to "Fix" these units but as soon as that pressure was lifted from them the level of failures have come back.

I'm doubting the October 19th Timetable change now.

I suspect it's more a case that with the reduced timetable they were able to keep the problem units on depot, now it's back to full the problem units have to be diagrammed, and are causing problems. Same goes for the 222s.

 

[800001]

I suspect it's more a case that with the reduced timetable they were able to keep the problem units on depot, now it's back to full the problem units have to be diagrammed, and are causing problems. Same goes for the 222s.

But to return to the normal(ish) timetable, EMR must of seen an improvement in performance from Hitachi, and also had sight of the recovery plan to ensure that the availability of units is consistent and not of the problems a few months ago, otherwise all that will happen again is a reduced timetable will have to be reintroduced.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think we're back to Pre timetable change failures....

I don't agree, at least on today's evidence. This failure's causing 1 and a half cancellations, with the 2nd impacted train (1202 STP-Shef) being picked up by a replacement unit at Derby. This wouldn't have happened in June/July. There'd have been no spare, and all the services it was due to run would be cancelled (or there'd be some frenzied reshuffling at St Pancras with other services being canned).

EMR must of seen an improvement in performance from Hitachi

Worse in the long term if that improvement has been more about better Cl222 performance than Cl810. The failed 810 above is being backfilled by a 222, meaning 14x222 are in service today and I reckon there are only ~17 still working for EMR. That's actually pretty good for a fleet that's overdue overhaul and generally looks well past its use-by date. At least half the units I saw on Monday were on 4 engines.

So if we're still at the point where Hitachi can only get 5-6 Cl810 out of bed each morning, then a reasonable best-case scenario is 20 available trains to cover 19 diagrams.
So I think the next crunch time is less about the reliability falling back, and more that further Cl222 leave whilst there's a continued hiatus on Cl810 acceptance.

 

[Amos390]

Just seen a RAIL article regarding the Dynamic Braking on the 810s, EMR have had to turn off the Dynamic Braking for the time being whilst they investigate issues with said brakes after multiple units started overshooting their stop markers.

"At least two units were involved in incidents in late September when coming into stations on the Midland Main Line.

RAIL understands there have been instances where the dynamic brake has released at low speed."

"
Switching off the dynamic braking function means drivers must use friction braking instead, with one source saying it will lead to a “rougher ride”.

The notice added: “Although this method of braking may feel different, the stopping distances will remain unchanged."

(Quotes from this RAIL magazine)

 

[superkev]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

 

[50002Superb]

Just seen a RAIL article regarding the Dynamic Braking on the 810s, EMR have had to turn off the Dynamic Braking for the time being whilst they investigate issues with said brakes after multiple units started overshooting their stop markers.



(Quotes from this RAIL magazine)

I was on 810014 and the slow manner in which they came into each station was painful to witness

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

However the small problem with nuclear options is they are mutually assured destruction. Realistically, EMR would be able to keep the current minimalist service running with the ~17 222s they still operate plus probably all of the ex-Avanti Cl221 that are currently with GC or off-lease at Alstom.

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

 

[superkev]

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

However the small problem with nuclear options is they are mutually assured destruction. Realistically, EMR would be able to keep the current minimalist service running with the ~17 222s they still operate plus probably all of the ex-Avanti Cl221 that are currently with GC or off-lease at Alstom.

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

I was puzzled by Roger Fords excellent article on the 810 proplems in that he said the bodyshells were Mig welded at Newton Aycliffe rather than Hitachi preffered stir welding. Im sure I read somewhere Hitachi had invested in a stir welding facility at Aycliffe. Anyone clarify.
Also re the nuclear option has anyone have a count up of spare 221s and 180s including the GC ones which 8xx replacements in build.
Thanks

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

Wouldn't disagree with returning the 810s to Hitachi but.... EMR are happily trying to use six in service everyday. If they are that poor / unsafe / rubbish then they would not be coming off Etches Park every morning. Ansaldo Breda had a terrible reputation for train building and DfT should have run due process checks before signing on the dotted line. Hitachi Europe have got the DfT by the short and curlies!!! This is after the welding / aluminium grade of metal on the previous AT300 series.

 

[YorksLad12]

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

They could have the 810s...