New night train start-up - Nox

[AdamWW]

The thing Nox has going for it that other sleeper trains don't is that they won't be running multiple sets with splitting and reversals mid-journey

I realise that is part of their pitch but there are already sleeper services that neither split/join en route nor reverse anywhere.
(Reversal not necessarily requiring a second locomotive anyway).

Thinking of the last four sleeper/couchette trains I used in Europe, two had no splitting/joining or reversal.
Two did have changes in formation, but only because they were travelling for part of the route coupled to a day train that would have run anyway.

Edited to add: Thinking about it more, one them also split as far as you could split a train - into individual carriages - for a gauge change.

 

[Sorcerer]

I realise that is part of their pitch but there are already sleeper services that neither split/join en route nor reverse anywhere.
(Reversal not necessarily requiring a second locomotive anyway).

Thinking of the last four sleeper/couchette trains I used in Europe, two had no splitting/joining or reversal.
Two did have changes in formation, but only because they were travelling for part of the route coupled to a day train that would have run anyway.

Then you can probably tell my experience with sleeper trains is practically non-existent.

That said I think the fact there is a precedent for this kind of operation gives me a little more faith in the new operator. I must admit that I am being quite hopeful though because I really want Nox to succeed, partly because I like the YouTube channel, and partly because I prefer the idea of bed-only sleepers to mixed formations.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

As I understand as well, Japanese sleepers operate in a very similar manner even though they aren't as prevalent and don't offer on-board food services.

The last remaining JR sleeper trains, the Sunrise Izumo (Tokyo-Izumoshi) and Sunrise Seto (Tokyo-Takamatsu), run as a single train between Tokyo and Okayama. Each train is composed of a seven-car 285 series EMU, making a fourteen-car formation on the combined section.

 

[superalbs]

I'm curious how the economics add up. I had a look at the NOX prices, and the lowest ones (looking at April next year) are about €65. Generally the cheapest available for a DB daytime service from Hamburg to Munich is about €40.

It looks to me like each of those "suites" take the space of about 4 regular seats (I may be wrong). At a basic level that would suggest they ought to cost about 4x the price of a daytime seat.

A six berth couchette compartment uses the same space as, say, 12 daytime seats in a 2+2 airline configuration. So a single couchette perhaps takes the space of 2 daytime seats. Presumably that space efficiency is why it's been the preferred solution for decades.

At first glance, then, these suites take 4x the space of a daytime seat and 2x the space of a traditionally couchette berth. It doesn't look like they are going to be priced at 4x the cost of a day train or 2x what (say) ES charges for a regular couchette ... so what gives? How do they make this profitable?

They fit 30 seats per carriage in this configuration, with the future rooms fitting 38 beds per carriage. That latter number is very close to a full 4-bed couchette configuration, but with 100% private rooms. Charge an average €100 for that, with a few carriages, then the extra services at either end. That's no tiny amount of money.

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Many standard 26.4 m couchette carriages have 10 couchette compartments, so that's 60 seats. For seats only in 2nd class, you can squeeze in an extra compartment, mainly because you don't need a compartment for the couchette attendant and maybe 1 less toilet and no washing space, and you can seat 4+4 instead of 3+3, so that makes 88 seats (22 rows). Open-plan 2nd class carriages often have between 80 and 88 seats.
Flixtrain manage 26 rows in their refurbished carriages, but I don't have experience with them and don't know how much space for your legs that really means. The seats will need to be really thin to offer enough leg space. 120 seats however would mean 30 rows of 4 and I don't think you would want that. I've been in suburban Trenitalia carriages with 28 rows and that was really, really tight.

26 rows on Flixtrain seems to be regarded as a mistake, as they now chain off a few rows to allow for luggage space.

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That does surprise me.

I thought airline configurations got you a significant increase in seating compared to seats round tables, and that the same thing would apply to facing compartment seating.

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OK so as has been hinted at earlier in this threat it seems that the sleeper coaches will be new build. Quite an investment I would think. And ready in 2028?

I don't think I'm the only person who somehow had the impression that their plan was to build their novel configuration of sleeper compartments into second hand seated coaches, rather than just shoving some lie-flat seats into them. I'm also a little confused - if these seats are "fully private" what is an actual cabin? Completely fully private?

The idea of making arrangements for somewhere to have breakfast, a shower, and leave your bags sounds very sensible.

I hope that all it takes to avoid delays is just to have a "realistic and achievable" timetable. Does this mean enormous amounts of padding?

The lie-flat lets them launch earlier, as the private rooms are likely to encounter regulatory hurdles and more design work. A new carriage gives them a blank slate too.​

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Also, 11hr from Hamburg to Munich is very generous, even NJ aims for 9hr. Also they don't have stops during the night, so can divert via pretty much any route, and still absorb the time penalty from doing so.​

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Perhaps they have raised much more money than they were expecting. The original plan was probably to build compartments in used seated coaches, which the prototype demonstrates is possible, but now they have switched to lie-flat seats because they are quicker to install and allow an earlier entry into service.



Vy in Norway already have that, along with lie-flat seats. @superalbs made a video in 2023.

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ETA: Re-reading the first post in this thread makes clear that the original plan was to convert used coaches.



In his orignal announcement video, which is posted on the first page, Thibault said that they were also "exploring" the possibility of new-build coaches.

These Vy lie-flat seats are inefficient, fitting only 22 per carriage I believe. They're also a lot less private and spacious (I have tried both).

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I realise that is part of their pitch but there are already sleeper services that neither split/join en route nor reverse anywhere.
(Reversal not necessarily requiring a second locomotive anyway).

Thinking of the last four sleeper/couchette trains I used in Europe, two had no splitting/joining or reversal.
Two did have changes in formation, but only because they were travelling for part of the route coupled to a day train that would have run anyway.

Most of the NJ services that cross Germany have splits/merges, and that totally knocks out punctuality when one of them is late. Especially if there's another issue when shunting, like for example the new carriages have a computer error (which happened on both of my trips on the new carriages).

 

[Sorcerer]

The last remaining JR sleeper trains, the Sunrise Izumo (Tokyo-Izumoshi) and Sunrise Seto (Tokyo-Takamatsu), run as a single train between Tokyo and Okayama. Each train is composed of a seven-car 285 series EMU, making a fourteen-car formation on the combined section.

This is arguably the biggest fundamental difference because Nox couldn't simply order a purpose-built long-distance EMU and had to make do with available coaching stock. China as I understand it has a few high-speed sleeper EMUs but those are obviously unsuitable for the time being. Sleepers are really about comfort rather than speed.

 

[AdamWW]

Then you can probably tell my experience with sleeper trains is practically non-existent.

Fair enough. But it does highlight that they are making a claim that seems a little misleading. But perhaps I've misinterpreted it.

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Most of the NJ services that cross Germany have splits/merges, and that totally knocks out punctuality when one of them is late.

Yes I was wondering if "other sleepers" actually meant Nightjet.

like for example the new carriages have a computer error (which happened on both of my trips on the new carriages).

Well that's one problem that European Sleeper probably don't have to worry about for now.

 

[Sorcerer]

Fair enough. But it does highlight that they are making a claim that seems a little misleading. But perhaps I've misinterpreted it.

I remember the original video when Simply Railway announced his intention to launch his own night train service and was talking about the concept about a year before things took off. His general experience was that many sleepers combine multiple services into one, splitting at stations which increased complexity and costs, so he wanted Nox to run direct trains with strategic stops. So one could say he wasn't trying to make out like it was revolutionary new idea more so that this was his own experiences that he felt shouldn't be part of the experience Nox intends to offer.

 

[AdamWW]

Also, 11hr from Hamburg to Munich is very generous, even NJ aims for 9hr. Also they don't have stops during the night, so can divert via pretty much any route, and still absorb the time penalty from doing so.

This is presumably their "realistic and achievable" timetable. Enough time for a good night's sleep.

The lie-flat lets them launch earlier, as the private rooms are likely to encounter regulatory hurdles and more design work. A new carriage gives them a blank slate too.

Maybe I mis-heard but I thought the video said the new coaches were supposed to launch in 2028, compared with the "private suites" in 2027. So an earlier launch but not hugely earlier.

(A bit confusing - a "room" seems to be better than a "suite" which isn't how it normally works in hotels).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 15:29 ==

I remember the original video when Simply Railway announced his intention to launch his own night train service and was talking about the concept about a year before things took off. His general experience was that many sleepers combine multiple services into one, splitting at stations which increased complexity and costs, so he wanted Nox to run direct trains with strategic stops. So one could say he wasn't trying to make out like it was revolutionary new idea more so that this was his own experiences that he felt shouldn't be part of the experience Nox intends to offer.

Yes I remember that video but the goalposts seem to have moved a little into suggesting now that it is one of the unique features.

 

[BRX]

The thing Nox has going for it that other sleeper trains don't is that they won't be running multiple sets with splitting and reversals mid-journey which should in theory save on costs through not having the need to hire multiple locomotives and not being held at platforms performing stock movements. For anyone wanting to travel long-distance between cities without the hassle of an airport or hotel, this kind of service could be quite appealing.

European Sleeper do exactly this: run city to city with no splits or reversals en route. And I believe have one loco throughout despite crossing multiple borders (except on the Milan one where they have to swap to an italian loco for the last bit).

ES are the operation to compare NOX's strategy with, I'd say, because they too have to stand on their own two feet with no state subsidy.

 

[AdamWW]

European Sleeper do exactly this: run city to city with no splits or reversals en route. And I believe have one loco throughout despite crossing multiple borders (except on the Milan one where they have to swap to an italian loco for the last bit).

Certainly the same loco when I did the Brussels-Prague sleeper, and there was definitely an even number of reversals and I'm fairly sure the number was zero.

I've seen it reported though that they sometimes stop somewhere along the way to add and remove (unoccupied I hope!) carriages - presumably they have a depot there.

In principle they could give themselves extra time (though I have no idea if there would be paths to do that) and a more civilised arrival in Munich. But then the arrival in Prague gets a bit late.

I have a vague recollection that at one point European Sleeper considered having two portions on a route, then decided against it.

 

[Roast Veg]

European Sleeper do exactly this: run city to city with no splits or reversals en route. And I believe have one loco throughout despite crossing multiple borders (except on the Milan one where they have to swap to an italian loco for the last bit).

ES are the operation to compare NOX's strategy with, I'd say, because they too have to stand on their own two feet with no state subsidy.

European Sleeper are also on record as deliberately avoiding direct on-rail competition with Nox, at least in the short term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ES are the operation to compare NOX's strategy with, I'd say, because they too have to stand on their own two feet with no state subsidy.

Though the market pitch seems different - NOX appears to be aiming for a quality feel whereas ES seems to come across as equivalent to the old D-Zug overnighters in that it's just any old tat thrown together in a hope it might actually get there, only really likely of interest to people who don't have somewhere important to be eg InterRailers plus those scared of flying.

An interesting question though is how high quality the actual operation will be (as distinct from the trains themselves).