New night train start-up - Nox

[Gaelan]

Most other night trains don't have this issue or it can be reasonably easily avoided by running routes not involving a reversal. For the Cally to do that it'd need to switch to the ECML.

Would this not be fixable, at a moderate penalty to journey time, by going around the south sub prior to arrival in Waverley?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would this not be fixable, at a moderate penalty to journey time, by going around the south sub prior to arrival in Waverley?

Replied in a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oided-so-flatbeds-could-be-introduced.307506/

 

[AlterEgo]

They are

I'm on about their second phase sleeper designs, not the existing stock they have procured for the lie flat suites concept.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm on about their second phase sleeper designs, not the existing stock they have procured for the lie flat suites concept.

Have I got completely the wrong end of the stick here?

I thought their whole plan was to acquire second hand seated coaches and convert them to their novel arrangement of cabins.
Is this just for the lie flat seats they have just announced, and they are planning to operate new-build sleeper coaches to their design (by 2028?)

The unorthodox layouts are driven as much by the need to use seating carriages as by any desire to reimagine night trains. Nox are making a virtue out of a necessity, and they wouldn't have gone in this direction if they had got their hands on couchettes or sleepers.

I'd be interested in your source for this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have I got completely the wrong end of the stick here?

I thought their whole plan was to acquire second hand seated coaches and convert them to their novel arrangement of cabins.

At the moment they have converted old carriages to suites. These will not be the same vehicles that will convey the proper sleeper accommodation.

 

[citycat]

Having watched the video, it all looks a bit of a nightmare for the poor old carriage cleaners who will have to service those vehicles during the day and get into all those nooks and crannies and make up bedding in those rooftop spaces.

Hope they will get some extra pay for working on Nox vehicles.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I'd be interested in your source for this.

It's my conjecture. I haven't got a source. First, it would be illogical to spend money on gutting existing couchettes or sleepers when the shortage of night stock is the problem you are trying to solve. Second, the need to start with open seating cars creates an opportunity and perhaps a need to design entirely new sleeper compartment layouts that don't line up with standard compartment sizes.

 

[JGurney]

Or maybe the beds could just be made with the pillow at the other end

On the new NightJet stock, the foot ends of the berths are in a narrow alcove between the outside wall and the wall of the toilet/shower compartment. The ladder is fixed near the foot end of the upper berth and there are also night lights at the head end only (although that could presumably be altered). Lying the other way around from the designed way would be a bit like having your head in a small cupboard.

 

[Ringo2112]

interesting route to begin with, when was the last Domestic only German sleeper route?

I agree. Seems like a short route for a night train. I would have liked to see a longer route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2026 ==

Really close to the edge if this route even needs a night train. You can do it in under six hours with an ICE train. They better have good fares where it would be comparable to a hotel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really close to the edge if this route even needs a night train. You can do it in under six hours with an ICE train. They better have good fares where it would be comparable to a hotel.

Surely that's 1.5 hours longer than Glasgow and Edinburgh?

 

[Watershed]

I agree. Seems like a short route for a night train. I would have liked to see a longer route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2026 ==

Really close to the edge if this route even needs a night train. You can do it in under six hours with an ICE train. They better have good fares where it would be comparable to a hotel.

The last direct daytime train is at 18:11 northbound and 18:01 southbound, between the respective Hbf stations. Later southbound options involving connections are possible but would probably be regarded as risky and unattractive by business travellers given DB's notorious punctuality record.

So not exactly times that allow a lot of leeway for getting to the Hbf after finishing work at 5pm, let alone accounting for the fact that many of the business travellers in their target market may be wanting to attend dinners or go out for drinks.

 

[williamn]

They better have good fares where it would be comparable to a hotel.

Starting from €65

 

[Sorcerer]

I agree. Seems like a short route for a night train. I would have liked to see a longer route.

Really close to the edge if this route even needs a night train. You can do it in under six hours with an ICE train. They better have good fares where it would be comparable to a hotel.

Munich-Hamburg is a good start given it's a long journey within a domestic market, which means applying for track-access in just one country, while still remaining long enough to justify an overnight route between two major economic centres. If nothing else it would serve as a good proof-of-concept given that these sleeper trains will be all beds rather than having standard seating and couchette coaches.

 

[Ian99]

Just a point regarding arrival times - as a leisure traveler, I'm sometimes put off by trains arriving too early in the morning. Especially if I have a single sleeper, I like to wake up in the morning and enjoy the ride for an hour or three before having to leave the train.

 

[mono1989]

I've booked myself on the first night of operations on the 23rd March so will provide feedback and a youtube video for my channel.

 

[BahrainLad]

Doing a deal with gyms (hopefully high quality Third Space-style places where you could linger, get a coffee etc before meetings) in each city for showering / freshening up after arrival is a smart idea.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

@superalbs has posted a video tour of the Nox prototype car. He seems enthusiastic.

Night trains across Europe often suffer from cramped shared compartments, frequent delays, and expensive tickets. But this exciting new startup train company is promising to revolutionise European train travel with their innovative private carriages. Launching on the Hamburg to Munich route in March 2027, Nox is introducing the Nox Suite, featuring fully private sleeper train rooms with lie-flat beds converted from daytime seating caers. We also get a first look at the future of rail travel with their prototype Loft and Vista private cabins. Discover what the next generation of night trains looks like in this special exclusive walkthrough. Join me for an exclusive behind the scenes tour of Nox Mobility at the InnoTrans 2026 railway exhibition in Berlin!

 

[BRX]

I'm curious how the economics add up. I had a look at the NOX prices, and the lowest ones (looking at April next year) are about €65. Generally the cheapest available for a DB daytime service from Hamburg to Munich is about €40.

It looks to me like each of those "suites" take the space of about 4 regular seats (I may be wrong). At a basic level that would suggest they ought to cost about 4x the price of a daytime seat.

A six berth couchette compartment uses the same space as, say, 12 daytime seats in a 2+2 airline configuration. So a single couchette perhaps takes the space of 2 daytime seats. Presumably that space efficiency is why it's been the preferred solution for decades.

At first glance, then, these suites take 4x the space of a daytime seat and 2x the space of a traditionally couchette berth. It doesn't look like they are going to be priced at 4x the cost of a day train or 2x what (say) ES charges for a regular couchette ... so what gives? How do they make this profitable?

 

[rvdborgt]

A six berth couchette compartment uses the same space as, say, 12 daytime seats in a 2+2 airline configuration. So a single couchette perhaps takes the space of 2 daytime seats. Presumably that space efficiency is why it's been the preferred solution for decades.

A 6-berth couchette compartment fits in exactly the same space as a 6-seat compartment. You could also fit 8 2nd class seats in there, but no more, certainly not 12, unless you're looking at doubledecker carriages.

 

[AdamWW]

A 6-berth couchette compartment fits in exactly the same space as a 6-seat compartment. You could also fit 8 2nd class seats in there, but no more, certainly not 12, unless you're looking at doubledecker carriages.

But you generally get more seats in a coach if you go for airline seats rather than all facing each other, don't you?

 

[BRX]

A 6-berth couchette compartment fits in exactly the same space as a 6-seat compartment.

How many airline style seats in a 2+2 configuration fit in the same space though? Perhaps it's not 12 - but it must be 8 at the very least.

 

[rvdborgt]

But you generally get more seats in a coach if you go for airline seats rather than all facing each other, don't you?

Many standard 26.4 m couchette carriages have 10 couchette compartments, so that's 60 seats. For seats only in 2nd class, you can squeeze in an extra compartment, mainly because you don't need a compartment for the couchette attendant and maybe 1 less toilet and no washing space, and you can seat 4+4 instead of 3+3, so that makes 88 seats (22 rows). Open-plan 2nd class carriages often have between 80 and 88 seats.
Flixtrain manage 26 rows in their refurbished carriages, but I don't have experience with them and don't know how much space for your legs that really means. The seats will need to be really thin to offer enough leg space. 120 seats however would mean 30 rows of 4 and I don't think you would want that. I've been in suburban Trenitalia carriages with 28 rows and that was really, really tight.

 

[Austriantrain]

Many standard 26.4 m couchette carriages have 10 couchette compartments, so that's 60 seats. For seats only in 2nd class, you can squeeze in an extra compartment, mainly because you don't need a compartment for the couchette attendant and maybe 1 less toilet and no washing space, and you can seat 4+4 instead of 3+3, so that makes 88 seats (22 rows).

4+4 compartments are atrocious and those railways that still used compartments for a longer time than elsewhere mostly went to 3+3. Which of course makes the seating differential to open-plan very significant.

I beliebe SNCF even had a trial for 4+4 couchette-style compartments. Not surprisingly, it did not work.

 

[AdamWW]

Many standard 26.4 m couchette carriages have 10 couchette compartments, so that's 60 seats. For seats only in 2nd class, you can squeeze in an extra compartment, mainly because you don't need a compartment for the couchette attendant and maybe 1 less toilet and no washing space, and you can seat 4+4 instead of 3+3, so that makes 88 seats (22 rows). Open-plan 2nd class carriages often have between 80 and 88 seats.

That does surprise me.

I thought airline configurations got you a significant increase in seating compared to seats round tables, and that the same thing would apply to facing compartment seating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 12:47 ==

@superalbs has posted a video tour of the Nox prototype car. He seems enthusiastic.

OK so as has been hinted at earlier in this threat it seems that the sleeper coaches will be new build. Quite an investment I would think. And ready in 2028?

I don't think I'm the only person who somehow had the impression that their plan was to build their novel configuration of sleeper compartments into second hand seated coaches, rather than just shoving some lie-flat seats into them. I'm also a little confused - if these seats are "fully private" what is an actual cabin? Completely fully private?

The idea of making arrangements for somewhere to have breakfast, a shower, and leave your bags sounds very sensible.

I hope that all it takes to avoid delays is just to have a "realistic and achievable" timetable. Does this mean enormous amounts of padding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does surprise me.

I thought airline configurations got you a significant increase in seating compared to seats round tables, and that the same thing would apply to facing compartment seating.

It would but for that legroom in 11 compartment 26.4m UIC coaches tends to be very poor. The differential between 1st and 2nd of course just being that if both are 6 seat compartments. Whereas aside from the likes of Flix legroom in open coaches is generally good.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I don't think I'm the only person who somehow had the impression that their plan was to build their novel configuration of sleeper compartments into second hand seated coaches, rather than just shoving some lie-flat seats into them.

Perhaps they have raised much more money than they were expecting. The original plan was probably to build compartments in used seated coaches, which the prototype demonstrates is possible, but now they have switched to lie-flat seats because they are quicker to install and allow an earlier entry into service.

The idea of making arrangements for somewhere to have breakfast, a shower, and leave your bags sounds very sensible.

Vy in Norway already have that, along with lie-flat seats. @superalbs made a video in 2023.

Tonight, it's time to ride an innovative overnight train, spending a trip on a reclining seat. Join me and find out if this offering is as comfortable as a proper bed, and learn about the possible future of sleeper trains!

---

Journey Details:
Origin: Bergen
Destination: Oslo S
Company: Vy
Train: NSB El18 + B7 PlusNight
Accommodation: PlusNight Lie-flat Seat (2nd+)
Distance: 488 kilometres / 303 miles
Price: 929.00 kr (£78.40 / €88.40 / $94.90)
Time: 7 hours 27 minutes, arrived 1 minute late

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 13:39 ==

ETA: Re-reading the first post in this thread makes clear that the original plan was to convert used coaches.

A youtuber, Simply Railway, is starting their own european night train company. According to them they already have coaches "reserved" for this and their photo renders show a very heavy refurbishment which no doubt won't be cheap and that's if they even find the capital for it. Very ambitious route network as well, looks like they want to compete head-on with Nightjet and European Sleeper.

In his orignal announcement video, which is posted on the first page, Thibault said that they were also "exploring" the possibility of new-build coaches.

 

[BRX]

So does this seem a reasonable estimate for a 26.4m carriage:

Airline style seating maxed out eg Flixtrain - 26 rows of 2+2 seats - 104 people sitting (daytime train)
Couchette (6 per compartment) - 60 people sleeping (night time train)
Nox "suites" - 13 rows of 1+1 seats - 26 people sleeping (night time train)

Or am I underestimating the capacity of the Nox setup?

 

[AlterEgo]

It may well be the case that the initial run of suites is not intended to be profitable, and indeed most ventures like this will make a loss in the first couple of years. The route is probably intended to prove the operational competence and raise the brand profile of Nox.

 

[BRX]

It may well be the case that the initial run of suites is not intended to be profitable, and indeed most ventures like this will make a loss in the first couple of years. The route is probably intended to prove the operational competence and raise the brand profile of Nox.

The question remains about the long term economics of it though.

If they have to charge people 2 times as much as a couchette based operator has to - does that amount to a price that people will plausibly pay?

These kinds of questions have previously been somewhat obscured by state operator subsidy or cross-subsidy - but now we will get to see what happens to prices when there are two fully independent non-subsidised night train operators, each subject to presumably similar basic costs, but offering two quite different things. I think the "suites" will appeal to more people than couchettes do, but it looks like they aren't presenting a solution that maximises space ie. packs as many people into a carriage as possible, in order to keep the unit cost down.

 

[Sorcerer]

It may well be the case that the initial run of suites is not intended to be profitable, and indeed most ventures like this will make a loss in the first couple of years. The route is probably intended to prove the operational competence and raise the brand profile of Nox.

I too think proof-of-concept is the intended goal here, hence why they also chose Munich to Hamburg as their first service. It's a domestic route between two major centres of a single country and thus requires only one national track access agreement with no reversal. For what it's worth, I think any profit-making quarters will probably be when they move to their full intended business model of bed-only travel with no seating where they can charge more of a premium for each available space.

The question remains about the long term economics of it though.

If they have to charge people 2 times as much as a couchette based operator has to - does that amount to a price that people will plausibly pay?

These kinds of questions have previously been somewhat obscured by state operator subsidy or cross-subsidy - but now we will get to see what happens to prices when there are two fully independent non-subsidised night train operators, each subject to presumably similar basic costs, but offering two quite different things. I think the "suites" will appeal to more people than couchettes do, but it looks like they aren't presenting a solution that maximises space ie. packs as many people into a carriage as possible, in order to keep the unit cost down.

The thing Nox has going for it that other sleeper trains don't is that they won't be running multiple sets with splitting and reversals mid-journey which should in theory save on costs through not having the need to hire multiple locomotives and not being held at platforms performing stock movements. For anyone wanting to travel long-distance between cities without the hassle of an airport or hotel, this kind of service could be quite appealing. As I understand as well, Japanese sleepers operate in a very similar manner even though they aren't as prevalent and don't offer on-board food services.