Northern discussions on conductor restructuring at an end

[blimmo]

I don't think the tiny increase to safety from having the guard open the doors is worth the 15 seconds delay to door release at every single stop.

 

[gobbla]

I don't think the tiny increase to safety from having the guard open the doors is worth the 15 seconds delay to door release at every single stop.

Where are you experiencing a 15 second delay to the doors being released?

 

[Kilopylae]

It isn’t the dispatch method of work that makes Northern services inefficient; its poor diagramming, short-forming, and a lack of interest from management to get a robust timetable in place if it means the DFT cannot have their way of introducing a new method of work that comes wholly unjustified and without any clear idea of how it will be implemented.

It is meddling from top brass, plain and simple, and the waters are truly muddied by it all.

Hear, hear. The focus on changing dispatch methods is, frankly, a failure of culture.

 

[david l]

Where are you experiencing a 15 second delay to the doors being released?

Every time I travel with Northern (west side) whilst the conductor/guard selling tickets then finds a set of doors that they can get to and open the doors...

 

[gobbla]

Every time I travel with Northern (west side) whilst the conductor/guard selling tickets then finds a set of doors that they can get to...

Short-forming can create very busy trains, some of which have poorly placed door control panels which can hinder the Guard from getting to their duties and increase dwell times.

In the interest of fairness there are also guards who are not at their doors in good time, of course, and for a myriad of reasons that could stretch from being caught up in a discussion by an irate passenger who is furious about the poor service right down to just maybe they are lazy. Either way, Northern reckon they have enough data to confirm this is one of the leading factors as to why services are poor. They won’t share this data, of course.

I say… how about more suitable traction, less short-forming and better diagramming. Solving just some of those issues would create a better overall experience first and foremost for the passenger, let alone the staff working those trains.

But they aren’t interested in solving those issues. This whole messy situation sort of proves that, because before long a slow door release will be the least of passengers problems when a train doesn’t even turn up on a Sunday, again.

 

[Rail2002]

And not have a core responsibility (opening doors) taken away from them.

The DOCC has been added in adhoc and on the sly, with no information on how they want to implement it, on the basis that drivers opening doors will improve reliability on services.

Management have been asked on several occasions what their plan is for implementing DOCC, and also on how they believe DOCC will improve punctuality, to which they have not given a clear answer. They want the idea of DOCC signed for for future implementation, but why on earth would Guards accept a change in method of work that devalues their responsibility, let alone one which cannot clearly be explained or reinforced with any concrete data?

I have seen the correspondence that Northern issue regarding this topic and it is incredibly hostile. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they blame the shortfalls of the timetable and service upon the Guards solely at this point, even though a vote has clearly shown that the majority are in favour of bringing Sundays inside.

It’s an incredibly poor situation and what little morale there was is practically non-existent now.

I suspect the thought behind DOCC is that Senior Conductors won't have to be at the door as soon as the train arrives. Often they can get stuck when checking tickets and then have to scramble past passengers who are stood up already waiting to disembark.

Surely with rostered working, no days off are guaranteed (unless booked as part of annual leave). This needs to be made clearer at the recruitment process, I've not seen any mention of it in vacancy advertisements. It must be a shock to the system for someone joining the railway from fixed shift roles. The other and key problem is that it's difficult to change terms for someone who is already employed. It should have been better managed from the start but too late for that now.

 

[david l]

Short-forming can create very busy trains, some of which have poorly placed door control panels which can hinder the Guard from getting to their duties and increase dwell times.

In the interest of fairness there are also guards who are not at their doors in good time, of course, and for a myriad of reasons that could stretch from being caught up in a discussion by an irate passenger who is furious about the poor service right down to just maybe they are lazy. Either way, Northern reckon they have enough data to confirm this is one of the leading factors as to why services are poor. They won’t share this data, of course.

I say… how about more suitable traction, less short-forming and better diagramming. Solving just some of those issues would create a better overall experience first and foremost for the passenger, let alone the staff working those trains.

But they aren’t interested in solving those issues. This whole messy situation sort of proves that, because before long a slow door release will be the least of passengers problems when a train doesn’t even turn up on a Sunday, again.

Agreed. I'm certain that also the 'hand of DfT' is at play here, also doesn't help that most, if not all of Northern's so-called senior management (except for the MD) are east side based and aren't at the sharp end.
Short forms are very much also a massive feature on the west side, there are so many more trains booked for 4's that are regularly 2's - and that's before the 769's come into the equation and the constant DMU substitutions by pinching of units (either planned or on the day). The farce of the 2 ex-TfW units Including 421 that worked for 3 days and failed each day) that were supposed to cover for 6 ish months (at a contract cost of allegedly over £400k) whilst the 769's went to Brodies is a cracking example of that - but again how much of that is/was down to the hand of the DfT...

 

[nr758123]

The resultant claim from the management team was that it was better to have a 'certain' service every blue moon was better than what was being offered.- unbelievable.

Next thing they will be congratulating themselves on how much the figures on cancellations have improved.

 

[muz379]

This needs to be made clearer at the recruitment process, I've not seen any mention of it in vacancy advertisements. It must be a shock to the system for someone joining the railway from fixed shift roles.

The last Vacancy listing I saw for a conductor did make it clear IMO what the hours and patterns could be like, mentioning specific start and finish times like 2:30am and giving an example of a working week with different start times. It also made clear the requirement to work weekends and bank holidays.

 

[Starmill]

Like others, it is frustrating beyond belief that this situation on Northern (west side) has been allowed to go on for so long. How long is it since the company was amalgamated with others?? Well over 20 years +. It's now over 18 months since one Transport for the North commitees (led by one Mr Burnham) expressed their absolute disbelief/frustration/anger at the service that was being 'offered' with minimum 2 hours gaps - and plenty many more when a 'volunteer' conductor didn't appear. The resultant claim from the management team was that it was better to have a 'certain' service every blue moon was better than what was being offered.- unbelievable.
This 'temporary' timetable came in during December 2024, which in effect means a 6 day railway - there are certain bits in the NW that haven't had a train on a Sunday since then......having spiffed £110m on a Wigan-Lostock Jn. electrifiaction that hasn't seen a train, let alone an electric train since it ws finished on a Sunday really does beggar belief. It's no wonder that further investment is 'being thought about'...

Alterations were being made at the last minute to every Sunday for at least a year before that as well. In practice of course it was a problem even before Covid too, but more trains were added and the restructuring wasn't attempted, which made it harder to cover everything.

Who on earth decided to split an RMT ballot into two sections? We have still not been told whether it was DfT, Northern or RMT?

We have, it was the RMT NEC.

A guard has to physically go to the side of the train they are releasing, release the local door and step out onto the platform before releasing. This means there's a physical check that it's not wrong side.

They could just as easily as a driver do that as muscle memory and omit to check the back end wasn't off, sure, but wrong side would be basically impossible unless they omitted that check entirely (a big thing to forget) as if they did just do it blindly they'd fall into the cess rather than being able to step back in and issue the release.

Most guards don't need to step onto the platform first, except at high-risk locations or if there's evidence of a hazard when arriving. Northern do, but this is being removed from the instructions.

However, a whole generation of guards have been trained to work in a less safe and far slower way, so they'd be forgiven for continuing it for a while now.

This exists on the CAF fleet, but it gets confused at some stations so has to be manually overridden…

Well, it does exactly what it was designed to do, which is tell the train which station it's at, most of the time.

What it does not do is tell which platform the train is in, as geofencing really can't do that. You could have a guess which would be correct most of the time but that's rather a long way short of the standard.

Where are you experiencing a 15 second delay to the doors being released?

It's more like 10 (assuming the guard is already at the door when the train stops).

Surely with rostered working, no days off are guaranteed (unless booked as part of annual leave).

Sundays are guaranteed off under the current system for ex FNW conductors. Unfortunately under the ex TPE terms annual leave can't be taken on Sundays. So in fact there are quite a lot of nuances...

This needs to be made clearer at the recruitment process, I've not seen any mention of it in vacancy advertisements.

It is made crystal clear to new recruits before they accept an offer that working on Sundays is not required.

Yes, drivers are human. Stop-shorts happen - often by forgetting the length of the train. If the driver then releases the doors it suddenly changes from a minor mistake to an injured passenger. If the guard is operating the doors then they are much more likely to spot that part of the train is off of the platform and can give six on the buzzer to move the train forward. Two layers of Swiss cheese.

The alternatives are either to provide balises at every platform (expensive) or what was done at Burnham (Bucks) and move all of the car stop marks to the end of the platform.

I didn't suggest they weren't human, I suggested that they were considered a safety incident even if the guard notices and doesn't release doors. If the train is stopped short due to forgetting the length of the train but then the driver draws forward and nobody else realises, but neither driver nor guard reports it, that's on them.

 

[david l]

Your answer regarding it being made crystal clear to new recruits that working on Sundays is not required - is appreciated but gives me no comfort at all!

Surely there must be scope for advising that this situation could possibly change within any interviews/offers or this could carry on ad-infinitum.

 

[LowLevel]

I have an idea that Northern management may (misguidedly) have thought that driver door release would be if anything welcomed by the staff on the ground owing to the crap layout and working conditions on the CAF fleet and thus included it. It's said often enough that they are popular enough with drivers but the conductors hate them with their user unfriendly control door layout and low capacity on the smaller sets.

 

[Krokodil]

Please tell me how a guard will know that the train is positioned correctly before the doors are opened?

It's quite simple. I was once working a train where the driver forgot that he was working a double set. When we stopped at a station, there was no platform in front of my door, therefore (after checking from the droplight that it was safe to do so) I buzzed six and the train moved forward. No biggie.

Contrast with a service operated by a different company, one which has had driver release for around 20 years now. Signaller misrouted a 10 car 80x into an 8 coach platform. The driver took the route and released the doors. Serious incident.

Wrong side door release can happen no matter who opens the doors so not really sure what your rant is about.

A guard has to be extremely negligent to release doors without seeing that the platform is on the wrong side entirely. Drivers can end up doing this from muscle memory (both sets of controls are on the desk in front of them), but the guard should be stood on the correct side, with only one set of controls in reach.

There is no suggestions that Northern are proposing to introduce DOO on their services at this time

This proposal will be seen as the thin end of the wedge though. That's why it is such a big issue now, and wouldn't have been 20 years ago.

 

[Carlisle]

the CAF fleet and thus included it. It's said often enough that they are popular enough with drivers but the conductors hate them with their user unfriendly control door layout and low capacity on the smaller sets.

Hardly surprising really as at the time of their design/build & initial commissioning the CAF fleet was planned to be primarily or possibly entirely DOO dispatch after an initial transition period.

 

[Starmill]

Your answer regarding it being made crystal clear to new recruits that working on Sundays is not required - is appreciated but gives me no comfort at all!

Surely there must be scope for advising that this situation could possibly change within any interviews/offers or this could carry on ad-infinitum.

I understand. Sorry!

They are all well aware that the industry would like them to work too, to be honest. A huge part of the problem is that the reduced timetable and consistent underperformance of rolling stock means crowding and long delays are so much worse on Sundays now than on other days. Conductors will have the odd opportunity to work another day of the week as overtime, and although it wouldn't attract the 25% extra rate of pay (for FNW terms, anyway) it would probably be a lot less uncomfortable an experience, with vastly fewer irate customers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 17:05 ==

This proposal will be seen as the thin end of the wedge though.

The empirical evidence doesn't actually support that at all. RMT were completely comfortable at GA and SWR, and this proposal gives arguably more clarity that the guard would remain.

This is exactly the problem we have though in a ten year old dispute. It doesn't matter too much what either negotiating team suggests, the other one just thinks it's the either a bad faith objection or the "thin end of the wedge". Both sides are strongly focused how much they don't like the other, and little focused on the actual issue, so they have no incentive to actually settle anything.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Exactly, this stupidity has to end. Staff should sign a new contract with Sunday included or walk way. I'm fed up of this now. 1tp2h to Buxton on a Sunday is not acceptable. Everybody joining the railways KNOW there are trains on a Sunday then they pretend otherwise when suits. Pathetic. Union representatives supporting the ongoing stupidness should be named and shamed in public. This will be unpopular but at this point I DON'T CARE!

This is one reason why I believe that an Eastern based Northern crew should work an hourly Leeds to Buxton Sunday service, as there's plenty of other services between Stockport and Manchester - provided by Avanti, TransPennine and East Midlands.

I remember a time when Leeds based crews were working Doncaster to Goole services on a Sunday, we're talking a good 15- 20 years ago and it worked then so why not now.

 

[py_megapixel]

This is one reason why I believe that an Eastern based Northern crew should work an hourly Leeds to Buxton Sunday service, as there's plenty of other services between Stockport and Manchester - provided by Avanti, TransPennine and East Midlands.

What, reversing at Piccadilly? How would that help anything?

 

[Killingworth]

This is one reason why I believe that an Eastern based Northern crew should work an hourly Leeds to Buxton Sunday service, as there's plenty of other services between Stockport and Manchester - provided by Avanti, TransPennine and East Midlands.

When we had the threatened dam burst at Toddbrook Reservoir at Whaley Bridge all trains on the Buxton and Hope Valley lines were blocked for safety reasons. Northern could have run from Sheffield to Chinley. They didn't because Northern east side crews hadn't route knowledge. (EMR crews had and ran instead but that's another story.)

Run an extra east side operated train from Sheffield to Piccadilly reversing to Buxton? There's currently an unused path every 3rd hour on Hope Valley NO! A diagramming and route knowledge nightmare to arrange, but also an industrial relations stick of dynamite to turn east and west sides against each other and the management. Run everything possible from the east side - and add more fuel to the current dispute!

 

[Fokx]

This is one reason why I believe that an Eastern based Northern crew should work an hourly Leeds to Buxton Sunday service, as there's plenty of other services between Stockport and Manchester - provided by Avanti, TransPennine and East Midlands.

I remember a time when Leeds based crews were working Doncaster to Goole services on a Sunday, we're talking a good 15- 20 years ago and it worked then so why not now.

You want Leeds crews to travel 4 hours to/from Manchester plus break allowance to work a single Buxton to Manchester every other hour?

 

[muz379]

This is one reason why I believe that an Eastern based Northern crew should work an hourly Leeds to Buxton Sunday service, as there's plenty of other services between Stockport and Manchester - provided by Avanti, TransPennine and East Midlands.

This assumes there is a glut of east side conductors queueing up to work additional Sundays.

 

[Geeves]

Exactly as Muz says, this idea that the east side is this nirvana of happiness doesnt really ring true when said train using east side crew to Manchester is also cancelled as often as the west.

As for Leeds signing to Buxton youve as much chance of the WMT/Avanti combo eventually signing Buxton on a Sunday if you were looking anywhere, at least they sign Piccadilly to Stockport for a start

Anyway that really is in the rounds of pure speculation

If the Northern management in charge can legitimately say that "they have exhausted all options" to me we really are heading to another Southern style situation where the RMT eventually brought about On-Board Supervisors. Fire and rehire would be the absolute dream situation for the management! Some drivers might claim to they would not accept any changes but we know money talks

 

[Sleepy]

I understand. Sorry!

They are all well aware that the industry would like them to work too, to be honest. A huge part of the problem is that the reduced timetable and consistent underperformance of rolling stock means crowding and long delays are so much worse on Sundays now than on other days. Conductors will have the odd opportunity to work another day of the week as overtime, and although it wouldn't attract the 25% extra rate of pay (for FNW terms, anyway) it would probably be a lot less uncomfortable an experience, with vastly fewer irate customers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 17:05 ==


The empirical evidence doesn't actually support that at all. RMT were completely comfortable at GA and SWR, and this proposal gives arguably more clarity that the guard would remain.

This is exactly the problem we have though in a ten year old dispute. It doesn't matter too much what either negotiating team suggests, the other one just thinks it's the either a bad faith objection or the "thin end of the wedge". Both sides are strongly focused how much they don't like the other, and little focused on the actual issue, so they have no incentive to actually settle anything.

Don't think RMT were comfortable with GA at all initially, It was more the company /Dft didn't expect a PR disaster when the guards kept going on strike and travelling public gave them support.