Will GBR pay all drivers/guards the same in the end or will a hierarchy of service types develop again?

[Bletchleyite]

Because if you are doing the same job for the same company than it is a reasonable expectation to get paid the same. The equal pay Law enshrines this right between men and women but not for same job different department type stuff. Exceptions such as experience,shift allowance and location enhancements are allowed. If I were to predict how harmonising T&Cs and pay across the whole of England under the GBR management was to go, I predict local and national industrial action and a race to the bottom for GBR clashing with race to the top by the unions.

The question there I suppose is whether driving a 150 at 40mph on a little branch line is the same job as driving a Pendolino at 125 on the WCML. I think fairly objectively it isn't - both jobs are train driving, but one is going to be significantly more mentally taxing than the other. Just as driving a taxi and driving a lorry are both driving jobs but one is objectively harder than the other and so (indirectly) is paid a lot more.

BR had a hierarchy of links from local stoppers up to top flight IC - does it not seem reasonable for GBR to do that too?

As comparable TOCs with both intercity and regional operations, what do GWR, EMR and Greater Anglia do? I would think merging Avanti and WMT is in this regard not going to be any different than merging Central Trains (east) and MML into EMR was.

 

[officewalla]

GWR harmonised pay a while back. Who is to say whether mainline highspeed or branch work is more mentally challenging than the other? Each role could (perhaps already has been) job scored to see if there is an objective reason to pay one more than the other.
A hierarchy of links has one clear flaw. How does a driver move between branch and intercity links? There would need to be a clear and fair promotion pathway. And how would that work if your local area has no intercity routes? Or better still when a given driver has intercity and branch work within the same ToC and often mixed on the same diagram (GWR for example not sure if other ToCs are this harmonised).
Harmonising pay and T&Cs should be a priority for GBR but money will not be available one suspects so the status quo is likely to remain in the short to medium term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR harmonised pay a while back. Who is to say whether mainline highspeed or branch work is more mentally challenging than the other? Each role could (perhaps already has been) job scored to see if there is an objective reason to pay one more than the other.

So all GWR drivers and guards are paid the same? Or is there a different sort of hierarchy e.g. time in the role?

A hierarchy of links has one clear flaw. How does a driver move between branch and intercity links? There would need to be a clear and fair promotion pathway.

There was under BR.

And how would that work if your local area has no intercity routes?

You relocate to somewhere that does, same as any job where your local area doesn't offer the job role you want. I do know (loosely) a driver who did exactly that, relocating from the North West to Bristol so he could switch from driving Sprinters to HSTs (and now IETs).

Or better still when a given driver has intercity and branch work within the same ToC and often mixed on the same diagram (GWR for example not sure if other ToCs are this harmonised).
Harmonising pay and T&Cs should be a priority for GBR but money will not be available one suspects so the status quo is likely to remain in the short to medium term.

Yes, people will be TUPEd in and keep their terms for the foreseeable (it's often a very long time - I have the same terms in my job I had when I joined the company in 2006 despite being taken over, spun out and TUPEd multiple times). It's more about what GBR might do next.

Anyone know what EMR and Greater Anglia do?

 

[muz379]

The question there I suppose is whether driving a 150 at 40mph on a little branch line is the same job as driving a Pendolino at 125 on the WCML. I think fairly objectively it isn't - both jobs are train driving, but one is going to be significantly more mentally taxing than the other. Just as driving a taxi and driving a lorry are both driving jobs but one is objectively harder than the other and so (indirectly) is paid a lot more.

I guess if you start to compare different aspects of the job as it actually exists though it gets a bit more difficult to ascertain.

Your intercity driver might sign 1 or 2 units and a small number of routes whereas your regional driver might sign half a dozen or more units and a dozen or so routes.

And yes the Pendolino driver might be reaching speeds as high as 125mph but they might only be having to stop 3 or 4 times on their way down to London whereas that driver in the 150 might have stopped 5 times before they even get out of Greater Manchester and onto the branch line. Then the next day the 150 driver is in a pair of 331's on the west coast mainline about to take their train onto a branch line where it doesn't fit on half the platforms and they need to be extremely precise with their stopping position.

Then fast forward to leaffall, I am sure on a black day most drivers would much rather be in a relatively modern disk braked unit rarely stopping at stations or driving on restrictive aspects

Then at the end of the day the pendolino driver takes their set straight onto the depot from a main aspect signal whereas your 150 driver might have to do some complicated shunts looking out for which shunt signal is theirs and/or get down and pull their own points when they arrive at the sidings/depot.

Both variants of the job have their own challenges and I think it would be difficult to put a monetary value to some of them. Coupled then with the differing terms and conditions that already exists I don't think that harmonisation is going to be a quick or easy process if it is even attempted.

 

[35B]

There was under BR.

It may have been clear, but it is questionable how fair or, nowadays, legal it would be if reintroduced.

The question there I suppose is whether driving a 150 at 40mph on a little branch line is the same job as driving a Pendolino at 125 on the WCML. I think fairly objectively it isn't - both jobs are train driving, but one is going to be significantly more mentally taxing than the other. Just as driving a taxi and driving a lorry are both driving jobs but one is objectively harder than the other and so (indirectly) is paid a lot more.

That's a poor example, as it's the lorry drivers who are typically paid more despite their driving being, on average, less onerous than that of taxi drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a poor example, as it's the lorry drivers who are typically paid more despite their driving being, on average, less onerous than that of taxi drivers.

Not sure I agree - a larger vehicle is more difficult to handle, hence why it requires a special licence.

 

[6Gman]

The question there I suppose is whether driving a 150 at 40mph on a little branch line is the same job as driving a Pendolino at 125 on the WCML. I think fairly objectively it isn't - both jobs are train driving, but one is going to be significantly more mentally taxing than the other. Just as driving a taxi and driving a lorry are both driving jobs but one is objectively harder than the other and so (indirectly) is paid a lot more.

BR had a hierarchy of links from local stoppers up to top flight IC - does it not seem reasonable for GBR to do that too?

As comparable TOCs with both intercity and regional operations, what do GWR, EMR and Greater Anglia do? I would think merging Avanti and WMT is in this regard not going to be any different than merging Central Trains (east) and MML into EMR was.

But my recollection was that the basic pay was the same. Moving into a higher link might increase take-home pay because of various bonuses, overtime opportunities and the like but pay rates were the same.

Unless my memory is failing me.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't really see how a levelling up exercise could work. If company A's traincrew are paid 20% more than company B, and company B's staff are offered a 20% pay increase, company A's staff would soon question as to why they aren't also getting a 20% uplift.

 

[35B]

Not sure I agree - a larger vehicle is more difficult to handle, hence why it requires a special licence.

You're conflating two separate things:
1. Skill - recognised by the special license
2. Job demands - in general, taxi drivers are working under more onerous conditions than HGV drivers

The point becomes clearer when you consider bus driver pay - where they also require special licences.

Ultimately, the relative pay is set by other factors - and on the road, that leads to HGV drivers being better paid.

Taking this back to rail, where intercity link drivers are paid better, it's a rough proxy for experience more than anything else - with new recruits generally* starting on "local" TOCs before moving on to "inter city" TOCs in a quasi-link structure.

* - these are generalisations, not hard and fast rules

 

[muz379]

But my recollection was that the basic pay was the same. Moving into a higher link might increase take-home pay because of various bonuses, overtime opportunities and the like but pay rates were the same.

Unless my memory is failing me.

Mileage enhancements were the big one that benefited intercity drivers and commission plus mileage for intercity guards.

Of course higher links also had more daytime turns and less extreme start and finish times at a lot of places.

I don't really see how a levelling up exercise could work. If company A's traincrew are paid 20% more than company B, and company B's staff are offered a 20% pay increase, company A's staff would soon question as to why they aren't also getting a 20% uplift

You would have to factor in T's & C's as well , working week length, Sundays in or out , diagramming/rostering rules , annual leave etc etc.

And a lot of the pay disparities are historic but have been widened significantly by years of pay increases.

It isn't an easy feat and isn't something that I can even see being attempted but if it is I can't see a successful resolution being reached.

 

[Harpo]

It’s not pay that’s the big hurdle in harmonisation, it’s T&Cs which logically comes first.

I’d be amazed if there weren’t some TOCs that would have their resource plan unravel if forced to move to a standard version. And that’s before Sundays, DOO and a multitude of agreements and other factors enter the conversation.

 

[Recessio]

Are there also regional differences, e.g. London weightings, to reflect different cost of living across the country?

 

[muz379]

Are there also regional differences, e.g. London weightings, to reflect different cost of living across the country?

I think some operators who have depots in and out of London already have a London weighting. Tbh that isn't really a difficult one to solve you just specify particular depots and an amount for the allowance. Usually its non consolidated and non pensionable anyway.

 

[SynthD]

If you say to the unions there's an easier job and a harder job and we'll pay accordingly, they'll say that the lower salary people can't be assigned the harder work when there are temporary needs for drivers on certain lines. That would prevent the GBR-wide syngeries people are very keen to see (where route and traction knowledge doesn't already get in the way).

 

[Krokodil]

The question there I suppose is whether driving a 150 at 40mph on a little branch line is the same job as driving a Pendolino at 125 on the WCML. I think fairly objectively it isn't - both jobs are train driving, but one is going to be significantly more mentally taxing than the other.

I'd say that a driver on a DOO Glasgow suburban diagram is having a harder time of it than one on intercity work - far more station stops for one thing. Easier just to say that a mainline driver is a mainline driver (so excluding those who just shunt within maintenance depots, usually employed by the rolling stock manufacturer) and leave it at that.

So all GWR drivers and guards are paid the same? Or is there a different sort of hierarchy e.g. time in the role?

The ex-Wessex and ex-Thames drivers were offered a pay rise to accept (among other things) DOO and harmonise as "GWR Drivers". They now sign 80x and applicable routes as well as the local work.

The ex-Intercity drivers were already on the higher rate of pay and there was no way that they'd accept DOO without their own payrise so they were left alone. Recruitment now gets funnelled into GWR Driver links and gradually the ex-Intercity links will thin out through natural wastage.

 

[Lighteight123]

Network Rail has a wild array of grades, with staff in the same role on the same location all on different contracts and terms.

I think it’s likely there will just be a new contract for all new starters.

 

[whoosh]

If you say to the unions there's an easier job and a harder job and we'll pay accordingly, they'll say that the lower salary people can't be assigned the harder work when there are temporary needs for drivers on certain lines. That would prevent the GBR-wide syngeries people are very keen to see (where route and traction knowledge doesn't already get in the way).

Mitigated with something like a Higher Grade Duty payment, or similar arrangement surely?

 

[Ashley Hill]

So all GWR drivers and guards are paid the same?

GWR guards have two grades, Train Managers and Conductors. They have different rates of pay.

 

[officewalla]

GWR guards have two grades, Train Managers and Conductors. They have different rates of pay.

What is different about the roles? There must be differences otherwise the RMT would be shouting very loudly about this.

 

[LowLevel]

What is different about the roles? There must be differences otherwise the RMT would be shouting very loudly about this.

Train Managers are responsible for supervising other staff such as caterers, Conductors largely just look after themselves.

To answer the question about EMR drivers are harmonised, guards aren't, though only at Derby driver depot do they have booked mixed work links. The work is a bit different, but both Regional and Intercity have a mix of slower and faster services and some Regional trains nowadays are longer formations than most of the Intercity ones.

The guards are quite happy with the arrangements, train managers get paid more than senior conductors but they have a non pensionable element to their salary and their T&Cs aren't as good. It's not really seen as a promotion to move from senior conductor to train manager and indeed moves the other way aren't that unusual.

Nottingham senior conductors in particular have a huge route card.