West London Orbital Consultation

[PGAT]

TfL have released a new consultation to bring ahead the WLO. Haven’t had time to read it fully but looks like the originally proposed West Hampstead branch has been abandoned.

West London Orbital

Find out about proposals for the West London Orbital, a new London Overground service designed to improve connections across west and northwest London. View plans for new and upgraded stations, understand the potential benefits and impacts, and share your feedback.

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

We’re developing proposals for a new rail service, the West London Orbital (WLO). It would be a new London Overground service. It is proposed to run between Hounslow and Hendon, making use of existing rail lines that are currently underused - including the Dudding Hill line, which is currently only used by freight services.

The service would serve a mix of new stations and upgrades to current ones. The proposed new stations are:

• Neasden
  
  
• Harlesden
  
  
• Old Oak Common Lane
  
  
• Lionel Road

Some existing stations would need new platforms, entrances or other upgrades to support the WLO service. You can read more about the new stations by using the 'Stations' button above.

You can read more about the proposed route and why we chose it by using the 'Route' button above.

This new service has the potential to make travelling across west and northwest London much easier. We’re looking for your views to help shape these proposals.

 

[telstarbox]

Good stuff!

 

[paulmch]

They address the West Hampstead question in the Route section of the consultation website. Seems reasonable, especially if that £100m is the difference between it being built and being shelved.

Forecasts show around seven times fewer passengers would use a branch to West Hampstead Thameslink compared to the route to Hendon. It would also make the WLO around £100m more costly to deliver. So, the branch doesn't currently offer enough benefit compared to its cost and complexity.

 

[Farigiraf]

Great to see it progressing, though I retain the view that since nearly every 'interchange' on the line will actually be a pretty mediocre OSI connection, the line won't be as well used as expected nor too convenient as an orbital connection unless your origin & destination is along the line. A journey such as Wembley Park to Richmond or Greenford to Hounslow, both currently pretty inconvenient, will only get slightly less inconvenient. The convenience for west Londoners of having a high-speed rail hub next door will be offset by having to lug your suitcase half a mile across suburban Acton. In the Kew Bridge / Lionel Road area, residents in the new housing development will be able to choose between a slow & infrequent SWR or a fairly long and indirect 1-change OSI route via OOC to get into the city.

That's the nature of reusing legacy routes rather than building from new, I guess - it's cheap enough (to convince the Treasury that is, £1B for this descoped version of WLO is still quite a lot) that at least we get something built to serve these secondary (but still really important) flows that need mass transit but won't get extensive private funding. To get an idea of what we could've been doing, take a look at our neighbours across the Channel, building the Grand Paris Express, including 2-3 orbital lines, and compare that to this Great British compromise!

I wonder if cross-platform connections to mainline services will be possible at either end, such as at Brent Cross West and Hounslow? Given that SWR and Thameslink only run 2-4 times an hour through these stations it'd be a good idea to try to coordinate connections as it's likely that a significant amount of passengers will be transferring to/from mainline services.

 

[Supercoss]

A significant saving by not having a spur to West Hampstead Thameslink which would require signal interlocking changes at WH North Junction, where at Hendon an existing crossover exists all be it disconnected within interlocking.
for those with future visions imagine if the spur was extended beyond West Hampstead to Finchley Road where the current O2 Centre is being redeveloped for housing on what was originally BR / LT exchange sidings.

 

[mr_jrt]

They address the West Hampstead question in the Route section of the consultation website. Seems reasonable, especially if that £100m is the difference between it being built and being shelved.

Indeed.

If you want West Hampstead from most of the line, there's always the existing LO Richmond-Stratford service, though the interchange at OOC will need to be good. Serving Cricklewood on its own given the existing Thameslink service provision was never going to wash its face in a MVP (minimum viable product).

West Hampstead is better for Thameslink interchanges, though, so there's that. Personally I think that branch only really comes into its own if extended in tunnel to Gospel Oak or some such. And maybe then the Hendon branch can get extended to Mill Hill.

But as a initial project core, I think they've got this one largely right.

I do agree with Farigiraf on the quality (or rather, lack thereof) of the interchanges, though. Would have massively inflated costs to improve those, so on balance, again, I think as an initial project I think what they have is right. I'd love to see integrated Neasden and Harlesden rebuilds one day, though.

 

[Posa]

Acton Central
Bollo lane
&
Wood Lane level crossings due to be closed if this goes ahead.

Was wondering how they would tackle the barrier down times and frequencies.

 

[cle]

I wonder if cross-platform connections to mainline services will be possible at either end, such as at Brent Cross West and Hounslow? Given that SWR and Thameslink only run 2-4 times an hour through these stations it'd be a good idea to try to coordinate connections as it's likely that a significant amount of passengers will be transferring to/from mainline services.

Well Hounslow will be easy, because it is only those two platforms, and use of turnbacks. Given the poor service on this line, I don't think it'll be wildly useful (also the dwell / terminate might see WLO right behind a through SWT service - so long waits?)

This will be very good for local journeys (frequency through Brentford) - removing North Circular car and local bus journeys - and feeding more routes into OOC. There will be a ton of housing development throughout too, so it supports that, and lower car ownership (ie parking provision!)

And better to get to a 6-8tph core service than branching, re West Hampstead. Metro frequency and predictability is what drives true modal shift.

 

[SWT_USER]

Good news if this happens. I can see the level crossings at Isleworth being a showstopper for extra trains along that section (despite the fact SWR used to run 4tph each way). I think there are still the remains of a siding west of Hounslow which could potentially be brought back in to use if a train needed to be stabled out of the way.

I wonder if it could start as a Kew Bridge to Hendon service initially to potentially reduce the initial cost.

 

[evergreenadam]

Good news if this happens. I can see the level crossings at Isleworth being a showstopper for extra trains along that section (despite the fact SWR used to run 4tph each way). I think there are still the remains of a siding west of Hounslow which could potentially be brought back in to use if a train needed to be stabled out of the way.

I wonder if it could start as a Kew Bridge to Hendon service initially to potentially reduce the initial cost.

All mention of serving Kew Bridge dropped, not surprising given the extreme curvature of the disused short platforms there, it was never going to work on a practical level.

 

[brooklynbound]

Even with the turnback west of Hounslow station, I don't see how they're going to manage such a frequent service there, especially in the peaks when there are currently 4 SWR's an hour. In addition most people assume that the Hounslow loop will be returning to 4 trains an hour all day once SWR rebuild their timetable late 2027 early 2028.

 

[SWT_USER]

All mention of serving Kew Bridge dropped, not surprising given the extreme curvature of the disused short platforms there, it was never going to work on a practical level.

I meant Lionel Road, rather than Kew Bridge. Effectively just turning back before they join the Hounslow loop.

Even with the turnback west of Hounslow station, I don't see how they're going to manage such a frequent service there, especially in the peaks when there are currently 4 SWR's an hour. In addition most people assume that the Hounslow loop will be returning to 4 trains an hour all day once SWR rebuild their timetable late 2027 early 2028.

I'll believe it when I see it. The loop has a worse service than it had 20 years ago and SWR are in no rush at all to improve it. Hopefully the west London orbital will be a catalyst for that..

 

[Class15]

Indeed.

If you want West Hampstead from most of the line, there's always the existing LO Richmond-Stratford service, though the interchange at OOC will need to be good.

Acton Central would be an/the interchange surely?

 

[cle]

Acton Central would be an/the interchange surely?

Would also work! Nice spot to wait too. Less said about South the better.

Even with the turnback west of Hounslow station, I don't see how they're going to manage such a frequent service there, especially in the peaks when there are currently 4 SWR's an hour. In addition most people assume that the Hounslow loop will be returning to 4 trains an hour all day once SWR rebuild their timetable late 2027 early 2028.

This would likely become an issue. If there had been plans for a bay (5-6 car) - would cover this. I am sure that if it becomes a bigger problem, it might get sent on somewhere easier to turn trains.

As for the loop services, what I think we will see is folks using this to OOC and the flying into town. A Brentford-West End or City journey would be far quicker than via Vauxhall/Waterloo - except for the one-seat rides like Waterloo itself.

 

[Acton1991]

It baffles me that the current proposal doesn’t include Mildmay line platforms at Old Oak Common. Surely that should be a given.

• Why are there no Mildmay line platforms at Old Oak Common Lane?
  The current proposals focus on delivering the West London Orbital service.
  The station could potentially accommodate Mildmay line platforms in the future, but they are not required for operation of the WLO and are not part of the current project.
  
  What happened to previous proposals for a station on the Mildmay line at Old Oak Common?
  The current proposals include a new Old Oak Common Lane station for the WLO. Future Mildmay line platforms could potentially be delivered separately. The design of the WLO station is ensuring that Mildmay Line platforms could be added to the station in the future if funding to deliver these can be identified.

 

[The Pelican]

It's interesting to compare it's £1B cost to the £1.6B for the DLR Thamesmead extension- it shows how the cost of a long, under thames tunnel has come down, while the cost of a large number of new 2 platform stations has gone up. It's interesting how many post-1994 London rail projects have been either DLR or Overground, which makes sense- either build new, or make the best of what's already there.

 

[PGAT]

Even with the turnback west of Hounslow station, I don't see how they're going to manage such a frequent service there, especially in the peaks when there are currently 4 SWR's an hour. In addition most people assume that the Hounslow loop will be returning to 4 trains an hour all day once SWR rebuild their timetable late 2027 early 2028.

A dedicated bay or siding will be perfectly adequate capacity for 4 terminating and 4 through. Works perfectly well at West Croydon which has even more traffic.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I really can' see this being very useful, except for very loc al point to point journeys where the relatively low frequency will tell against it.
For connections:
From west of Hounslow, there are already connections to Acton and beyond via Richmond and the Mildmay Line
Hounslow, Isleworth, Brentford are clsoe to the Picadilly line which has a much better service. There is an OSI to the Mildmay Line via Chiswick Park/ Gunnersbury - the fact that there has been no direct service between the Hounslow West branch and Chiswick Park since 1964 suggests there is little demand for such a connection
The Lionel Road/Kew Brige area are also served by Gunnersbury

The OSIs at Harlesden (with the Lioness and bakerloo) and Neasden (with the Jubilee), and the interchange at Brent Cross West with Thameslink (the latter being not particularly handy for the Shopping Centre) duplicate existing interchanges at Willesden Junction and West Hampstead.

If there is money available for new interchanges, high level platforms at Brockley and Brixton would be a better use for it.

But I forgot - TfL stands for "Transport for the Left bank".

 

[OLEngineer]

Will Acton Wells Junction be 4 tracked?

 

[mickey]

I really can' see this being very useful, except for very loc al point to point journeys where the relatively low frequency will tell against it.

On the contrary, I think this will be very popular. The transformation of Brentford has been astonishing, with more new housing than anyone ever thought possible, and people there really hate crossing the Great West Road to go up to the Piccadilly line. OOC interchange will become the default route for most people to get to the city and west end. Remember as well that TfL is banking on not adding volume to the Picc line - in its western branch it is now principally designed for staff to access the airport.

 

[greatkingrat]

On the contrary, I think this will be very popular. The transformation of Brentford has been astonishing, with more new housing than anyone ever thought possible, and people there really hate crossing the Great West Road to go up to the Piccadilly line. OOC interchange will become the default route for most people to get to the city and west end. Remember as well that TfL is banking on not adding volume to the Picc line - in its western branch it is now principally designed for staff to access the airport.

If it was one station maybe, but I'm not sure it will be much quicker by the time you add on the walk between the Old Oak stations.

 

[evergreenadam]

On the contrary, I think this will be very popular. The transformation of Brentford has been astonishing, with more new housing than anyone ever thought possible, and people there really hate crossing the Great West Road to go up to the Piccadilly line. OOC interchange will become the default route for most people to get to the city and west end. Remember as well that TfL is banking on not adding volume to the Picc line - in its western branch it is now principally designed for staff to access the airport.

I think it is principally designed to improve the capacity of public transport in a number of housing growth areas by linking them to the nearby Thameslink, Elizabeth Line or Mildmay Line network. Also to improve accessibility to the HS2 station at Old Oak Common from west and north west London, avoiding the need to travel into Euston and then double back.

So more like a string of pearls with lots of overlapping short hop journeys being undertaken rather than end to end journeys. The quality of the OOC interchanges will be crucial.

Rail investment is now largely seen by the Government/GLA as an enabler of housing development rather than as being a public good in its own right. Hence the difficulty in getting investment in existing lines and new high level platforms at Brockley and Brixton where there is no associated housing development.

 

[Bigfoot]

A dedicated bay or siding will be perfectly adequate capacity for 4 terminating and 4 through. Works perfectly well at West Croydon which has even more traffic.

Zero space for that at Hounslow currently.

 

[greatkingrat]

Zero space for that at Hounslow currently.

Well TfL obviously think there is. It won't be a bay platform, but a siding to the west of the station.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Shame it can’t go a little further to St Albans or Luton, as I imagine the Luton Airport connection would be very valuable, but the Thameslink line is no doubt full.

The Rainham currently stops at all stations except Hendon. I’m assuming that would be changed once this WLO service were to begin.

 

[mickey]

Rail investment is now largely seen by the Government/GLA as an enabler of housing development rather than as being a public good in its own right. Hence the difficulty in getting investment in existing lines and new high level platforms at Brockley and Brixton where there is no associated housing development.

I think you’re right here. In fact I’d go as far as suggesting it could/should be used as a carrot to drown out nimby voices… along the lines of ‘if we build X houses here, you’ll get a nice shiny improved service that looks like this’. It might even work.

 

[greatkingrat]

The Rainham currently stops at all stations except Hendon. I’m assuming that would be changed once this WLO service were to begin.

It already stops at Brent Cross West, so adding a Hendon stop doesn't provide any new interchange.

 

[Class15]

The Rainham currently stops at all stations except Hendon. I’m assuming that would be changed once this WLO service were to begin.

It already stops at Brent Cross West, so adding a Hendon stop doesn't provide any new interchange.

It won’t be stopping anywhere north of Kentish Town off-peak from December. The Luton to Sutton will be all stops.

 

[fandroid]

Lack of proper interchanges is a disadvantage but the same could be said of the Suffragette Line (Gospel Oak to Barking). That is a highly successful line now with plenty of passengers throughout the day and justifies its electrification and increased service provision.

 

[Posa]

Stock choice will be interesting.

Will it be possible for Alstom to produce more 710's?

Also should be designed as 5 car from the start rather than the situation on the gob from videos where trains are only 4 car and rammed in the peaks!