Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

[childwallblues]

The extension of the 492 and 495 through the tunnel to Liverpool will surely make the situation in Birkenhead Bus Station more chaotic than it already is.

 

[Djgr]

Must cost the bus companies a lot of money

And I believe was a key reason that Wirral postcodes were changed from L to CH, in order to avoid the cost to Royal Mail of all these tunnel trips.

 

[Statto]

The extension of the 492 and 495 through the tunnel to Liverpool will surely make the situation in Birkenhead Bus Station more chaotic than it already is.

Not unless they route it like the 464/471/472/487, were to Liverpool they go from Borough Road via Argyle Street straight to the tunnel, & they call at the bus station from Liverpool.

However i don't see the need to extend the 492/495 to Liverpool, as Birkenhead-Liverpool is busy enough as it is.

 

[mickey]

And I believe was a key reason that Wirral postcodes were changed from L to CH, in order to avoid the cost to Royal Mail of all these tunnel trips.

It was absolutely one of the reasons, and Chester mail centre had plenty of excess capacity to handle it. The suspicion that later materialised was also that senior management knew the longterm plan was to close Liverpool and reroute everything to Warrington, which wouldn’t have been sustainable for Wirral.

 

[jamesst]

Not unless they route it like the 464/471/472/487, were to Liverpool they go from Borough Road via Argyle Street straight to the tunnel, & they call at the bus station from Liverpool.

However i don't see the need to extend the 492/495 to Liverpool, as Birkenhead-Liverpool is busy enough as it is.

Is it definitely extended as I cant see this on the timetable updates?

 

[Polarbear]

Is it definitely extended as I cant see this on the timetable updates?

No, they're not being extended to Liverpool. It was suggested up-thread that they could have been as part of the changes.

 

[dvfmlfc]

When the PTE were in charge of things, pre-deregulation, there were limited cross-river services (31/32 New Brighton - Liverpool, 418/419 Heswall - Liverpool, and the Night Tunnel Service) because a lot of resources were put into the rail services between the Wirral and Liverpool. After de-reg, buses have regularly competed with the trains for passengers on this lucrative corridor. I suspect that because there is talk about Merseyrail extensions and upgrades, the PTE may downgrade these tunnel bus services, but only if there was suitable infrastructure for bus turnaround / interchange in Birkenhead town centre. I'm not familiar with the current status at Woodside.

 

[adam rogan]

The reducing the 407 to Moreton is one of the many blunders of franchising. Just because a a train runs along the West Kirby corrridor does not mean that a bus service running parallel to it is not required otherwise much of Liverpool would have no need of a bus service due to a train line.

Despite what people say, the trains are far too expensive and there are many people who are willing to get a bus despite the time penalty if it gets them where they want to go. The 38,soon to be 438 is an interurban route route snaking through the top end of the wirral borough to the bottom. The 407 was a more direct bus to Liverpool for residents of Meols,Hoylake and part of West Kirby, Moreton, Bidston and North Birkenhead. It should have been kept as it was, and the evening timetable cordinated with the 438 to create a half an hour frequency in the common sections. Let reason prevail! Merseytravel once used to create tenders that ran exclusively on evenings and sundays to retain links such as the 423, but when they have full control of everything they sever links. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Djgr]

The reducing the 407 to Moreton is one of the many blunders of franchising. Just because a a train runs along the West Kirby corrridor does not mean that a bus service running parallel to it is not required otherwise much of Liverpool would have no need of a bus service due to a train line.

Despite what people say, the trains are far too expensive and there are many people who are willing to get a bus despite the time penalty if it gets them where they want to go. The 38,soon to be 438 is an interurban route route snaking through the top end of the wirral borough to the bottom. The 407 was a more direct bus to Liverpool for residents of Meols,Hoylake and part of West Kirby, Moreton, Bidston and North Birkenhead. It should have been kept as it was, and the evening timetable cordinated with the 438 to create a half an hour frequency in the common sections. Let reason prevail! Merseytravel once used to create tenders that ran exclusively on evenings and sundays to retain links such as the 423, but when they have full control of everything they sever links. It doesn't make sense.

I imagine that the plan is for an integrated public transport fares structure, with no particular differential based on whether they run on tyres or tracks (as is already the case with Saveways and concessionary passes etc)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2026 ==

When the PTE were in charge of things, pre-deregulation, there were limited cross-river services (31/32 New Brighton - Liverpool, 418/419 Heswall - Liverpool, and the Night Tunnel Service) because a lot of resources were put into the rail services between the Wirral and Liverpool. After de-reg, buses have regularly competed with the trains for passengers on this lucrative corridor. I suspect that because there is talk about Merseyrail extensions and upgrades, the PTE may downgrade these tunnel bus services, but only if there was suitable infrastructure for bus turnaround / interchange in Birkenhead town centre. I'm not familiar with the current status at Woodside.

I do have some doubts about the Health and Safety implications of running double decker buses through the old tunnel (HGVs etc. are banned).

There are interchange opportunities but need some rerouting work to better link with Conway Park and Birkenhead Central stations. That said, the area around Central station is planned to be blitzed for new housing with flyover removal, which may provide the opportunity for better integration.

 

[markymark2000]

I do have some doubts about the Health and Safety implications of running double decker buses through the old tunnel (HGVs etc. are banned).

What a silly thing to say. Double deckers run perfectly fine through the tunnel and have done for decades. If there were any health and safety implications here, do you really think that Merseytravel would be letting 22 buses per hour each way run through the tunnel?

There are interchange opportunities but need some rerouting work to better link with Conway Park and Birkenhead Central stations. That said, the area around Central station is planned to be blitzed for new housing with flyover removal, which may provide the opportunity for better integration.

If you want to decimate public transport usage and significantly increase private vehicle usage, you've got the nail on the head there.

This nonsense of forcing people to change from buses to train under the guise of integration simply will not work. Even if the bus and train were both free of charge, people wouldn't do it because it stupid and faffy. The bus takes around 10 minutes from Sir Thomas Street to Birkenhead Bus Station. The train from Liverpool Lime Street to Conway Park is 8 minutes. By the time you add on connection time from train to bus (normally around 10 minutes), and all of the escalators/lifts/stairs at the stations, you are looking at 15+ minutes longer per journey by forcing this silly connection upon people. Yippee for integration and improving peoples journeys. By making them longer, adding more points of failure, and forcing connections.

 

[Fokx]

The reducing the 407 to Moreton is one of the many blunders of franchising. Just because a a train runs along the West Kirby corrridor does not mean that a bus service running parallel to it is not required otherwise much of Liverpool would have no need of a bus service due to a train line.

There simply isn't the demand for 5 buses and hour between Moreton and West Kirby for the majority of the year. It's extremely rare to see 407s run this section with more than single figure passenger numbers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What a silly thing to say. Double deckers run perfectly fine through the tunnel and have done for decades. If there were any health and safety implications here, do you really think that Merseytravel would be letting 22 buses per hour each way run through the tunnel?


If you want to decimate public transport usage and significantly increase private vehicle usage, you've got the nail on the head there.

This nonsense of forcing people to change from buses to train under the guise of integration simply will not work. Even if the bus and train were both free of charge, people wouldn't do it because it stupid and faffy. The bus takes around 10 minutes from Sir Thomas Street to Birkenhead Bus Station. The train from Liverpool Lime Street to Conway Park is 8 minutes. By the time you add on connection time from train to bus (normally around 10 minutes), and all of the escalators/lifts/stairs at the stations, you are looking at 15+ minutes longer per journey by forcing this silly connection upon people. Yippee for integration and improving peoples journeys. By making them longer, adding more points of failure, and forcing connections.

I know I've had differences of opinion with you in the past but you're on the money here.

There are no Health & Safety implications in running double deck buses through the tunnel.

Similarly, the idea that it's preferable to make passengers have to change at Birkenhead, make their journey longer and more inconvenient, is just a nonsense.

 

[dvfmlfc]

What

If you want to decimate public transport usage and significantly increase private vehicle usage, you've got the nail on the head there.

The irony of your claim is public transport usage would be decimated and private vehicle usage significantly increased - well, that's already happened because of the folly of deregulation. All LCR and MPTE are doing is putting the public interest ahead of commercial considerations. If you think that the current schedules are justified, I think you may be in for a shock. Unless demand is there, there is no way the PTE will continue to allow the current traffic flow of 20+ buses per hour through either tunnel, when a 5-minute frequency already exists between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Merseyrail. Some of the legislation may have changed, but Merseytravel still have a statutory duty as part of the Transport Act 1968 to provide their operating area with an integrated public transport system, and current duplicating bus / train movements will not be a long-term view.

 

[markymark2000]

There simply isn't the demand for 5 buses and hour between Moreton and West Kirby for the majority of the year. It's extremely rare to see 407s run this section with more than single figure passenger numbers.

Personally I'd be shrinking the 38 to Moreton then keep the 407 extension to West Kirby, but then I'd additionally use the 407 frequency and extend it to Caldy High or the Grammar Schools to remove one of the school buses and better use the core bus network to provide such movements. It'd also help to improve reliability of the 38 as it would be a shorter route.

All LCR and MPTE are doing is putting the public interest ahead of commercial considerations. If you think that the current schedules are justified, I think you may be in for a shock. Unless demand is there, there is no way the PTE will continue to allow the current traffic flow of 20+ buses per hour through either tunnel, when a 5-minute frequency already exists between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Merseyrail.

Your arguments don't stack up. "unless demand is there" but you are saying that the bus operators are putting their commercial considerations first. So either there is demand and bus operators are running because there is money in it for them, or there isn't sufficient demand for these buses and that would mean bus operators are losing money. In which case, if they are losing money and running through the tunnel for the sake of it, that isn't putting commercial interests first?

Just the 407 alone will be costing just shy of £1,500 per week in tolls (69 trips each day Mon-Sat through the tunnel, times the £3.60 toll fare that buses pay) plus 2 vehicles extra in the cycle each day for the extension. That is a huge amount of cost for a bus operator to be putting in when there is, as you are trying to suggest, insufficient demand.

 

[Djgr]

There are no Health & Safety implications in running double deck buses through the tunnel.

A standard double-decker bus is typically about 4.2–4.4 metres high.

The old Mersey Tunnel—the Queensway/Birkenhead Tunnel—has a normal maximum height limit of 3.9 metres. However, local passenger buses may be granted permission to use it up to 4.75 metres, provided they use a middle lane when over 3.9 metres.

So what happens if the middle lanes become blocked?

 

[markymark2000]

So what happens if the middle lanes are blocked?

Then buses follow the very well rehearsed plan of diverting via the Wallasey tunnel.

I'd like to hope that someone would look at plans to ban car traffic from the Birkenhead/Queensway tunnel and make it into a busway. This would speed up buses and make journey times more reliable, but also if a lane closes you can just set up easy traffic management in the tunnel. I know it wouldn't be popular with motorists though, and almost certainly wouldn't happen with the current bunch at Merseytravel/City Region who are too busy providing nice little discounted passage for local motorists using the tunnel.

 

[Polarbear]

A standard double-decker bus is typically about 4.2–4.4 metres high.

The old Mersey Tunnel—the Queensway/Birkenhead Tunnel—has a normal maximum height limit of 3.9 metres. However, local passenger buses may be granted permission to use it up to 4.75 metres, provided they use a middle lane when over 3.9 metres.

So what happens if the middle lanes become blocked?

They have to wait in the queue until the emergency services (usually the tunnel police) have cleared the problem.

Doesn’t happen often thankfully, but it does happen. Normally a car breaking down, or getting a flat tyre. The police are usually fairly prompt in getting things moving.

The same can be said for many other roads in the UK where there’s insufficient room for large vehicles to manoeuvre around any obstruction.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A standard double-decker bus is typically about 4.2–4.4 metres high.

The old Mersey Tunnel—the Queensway/Birkenhead Tunnel—has a normal maximum height limit of 3.9 metres. However, local passenger buses may be granted permission to use it up to 4.75 metres, provided they use a middle lane when over 3.9 metres.

So what happens if the middle lanes become blocked?

So where is your evidence that this is a major issue, let alone (as you originally framed it), a Health and Safety issue? Double deckers have safely worked through the tunnel for decades.

As @Polarbear stated, car traffic will be funnelled onto the nearside lane whilst a wrecker is sourced. It is far more likely to be a car that breaks down and even that happens very rarely.

The irony of your claim is public transport usage would be decimated and private vehicle usage significantly increased - well, that's already happened because of the folly of deregulation. All LCR and MPTE are doing is putting the public interest ahead of commercial considerations. If you think that the current schedules are justified, I think you may be in for a shock. Unless demand is there, there is no way the PTE will continue to allow the current traffic flow of 20+ buses per hour through either tunnel, when a 5-minute frequency already exists between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Merseyrail. Some of the legislation may have changed, but Merseytravel still have a statutory duty as part of the Transport Act 1968 to provide their operating area with an integrated public transport system, and current duplicating bus / train movements will not be a long-term view

Ah yes, the folly of deregulation.

When Merseyside PTE was created, it had c1300 vehicles (1000 Liverpool, 225 Birkenhead, 75 Wallasey). After absorbing Southport and St Helens it had 1396 so it had already lost 80 odd vehicles. By 1986, it was about 1200 because of the decline in passenger numbers during the 1970s and 1980s (despite subsidies).

They may have a statutory duty to have an integrated public transport system. That doesn't mean integration at all costs. Yes, have feeders into stations, improve ticketing etc but that doesn't mean the adverse effect of enforced interchange at the detriment of passengers.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Ah yes, the folly of deregulation.

When Merseyside PTE was created, it had c1300 vehicles (1000 Liverpool, 225 Birkenhead, 75 Wallasey). After absorbing Southport and St Helens it had 1396 so it had already lost 80 odd vehicles. By 1986, it was about 1200 because of the decline in passenger numbers during the 1970s and 1980s (despite subsidies

And do we, for completeness, know how many buses are currently operating in the Merseyside area?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And do we, for completeness, know how many buses are currently operating in the Merseyside area?

Fewer, obviously. They're talking of c.700 new vehicles plus you have the schools fleets too (so probably a 1000) whilst the 1200 doesn't include the Ribble and Crosville vehicles (c.500) - fleets that also experienced a marked decline between 1969 and 1986.

The point is that the default position is that the decline began with deregulation. The reality is that services were declining despite massive cross subsidy during the time of MPTE (and doubtless since the mid 1950s).

 

[Djgr]

So where is your evidence that this is a major issue, let alone (as you originally framed it), a Health and Safety issue? Double deckers have safely worked through the tunnel

I guess the issue for me is whether operating vehicles that don't fit in one lane and barely fit in the other would present increased risk of injury and worse in the event of a very serious incident.

If not fine. Otherwise you would seek to mitigate this risk and using single deckers would be the obvious, as well as trying to reduce bus movements.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unless demand is there, there is no way the PTE will continue to allow the current traffic flow of 20+ buses per hour through either tunnel, when a 5-minute frequency already exists between Birkenhead and Liverpool on Merseyrail.

Demand is there.

It’s also only 8tph from Conway Park, which is the nearest station to Birkenhead Bus Station.

I guess the issue for me is whether operating vehicles that don't fit in one lane and barely fit in the other would present increased risk of injury and worse in the event of a very serious incident

It’s no different to any other road where there is restricted width or restricted height. There’s nothing more intrinsically dangerous about running double deckers through the tunnel compared to running double deckers anywhere else.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I guess the issue for me is whether operating vehicles that don't fit in one lane and barely fit in the other would present increased risk of injury and worse in the event of a very serious incident.

If not fine. Otherwise you would seek to mitigate this risk and using single deckers would be the obvious, as well as trying to reduce bus movements.

Double deck buses have used the tunnel since it opened in 1934 albeit initially on a limited basis. The cross-river services, as we see them now, began in the 1970s under Merseyside PTE and have continued ever since.

In that time, there has been no issue with the use of double deck buses so your fears are unfounded.

It sounds like you're looking to provide a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, hasn't existed, and with no evidence to suggest that it will become an issue.

 

[Statto]

Before deregulation buses on the Wirral side of the river used to call/terminate at Seacombe or Woodside & cross river passengers were expected to get the train or ferry across to/from Liverpool, you only had the already mentioned 31/32 & 418/419 along with the all night 94/94A going through the tunnel, the night 94/94A was the only one that went through the Birkenhead tunnel.

Back then the ferry was far more frequent that todays hourly cruise service, & was every 20 minutes daytime, 30 minutes evening & Sundays with & the ferries operated from around 05.30 to around 23.30, the ferry went to todays hourly service with extra peaks from 1989

From deregulation the cross river services expanded greatly but has settled down to todays level of service which is quite adequate, & a lot of those routes are very busy to/from Liverpool & serve large areas well away from the railway so don't need cutting.

 

[Fokx]

The old Mersey Tunnel—the Queensway/Birkenhead Tunnel—has a normal maximum height limit of 3.9 metres. However, local passenger buses may be granted permission to use it up to 4.75 metres, provided they use a middle lane when over 3.9 metres.

So what happens if the middle lanes become blocked?

The tunnel is continuously monitored by cameras. In the event of a breakdown, tunnel police dispatch from the Wirral side of the tunnel to assist and they also had (have?) their own breakdown lorry to remove vehicles.

In over 25 years of using the tunnel I've only experienced your scenario happing once and the following occurs.

A red X appears on both the middle lanes, and buses that haven't yet entered the tunnel divert via Kingsway. Cars continue to flow in the nearside lanes or the tunnel is closed completely briefly (similar to a smart motorway).

Tunnel police allow cars stuck in the middle lane behind the obstruction to change into the nearside lane and continue. Buses and large vehicles use the opposite side of the carriage way middle lane to overtake, or they wait for the obstruction to be towed/moved which is usually pretty swift.

 

[Djgr]

Demand is there.

It’s also only 8tph from Conway Park, which is the nearest station to Birkenhead Bus Station.

It’s no different to any other road where there is restricted width or restricted height. There’s nothing more intrinsically dangerous about running double deckers through the tunnel compared to running double deckers anywhere else.

Probably equidistant (or as close as dammit) to Birkenhead Central

....except it's in a tunnel

 

[Statto]

New video posted by G2E Media more buses for Birkenhead have arrived & stored.

 

[Djgr]

Double deck buses have used the tunnel since it opened in 1934 albeit initially on a limited basis. The cross-river services, as we see them now, began in the 1970s under Merseyside PTE and have continued ever since.

although they were very rare through the Birkenhead Tunnel pre-deregulation as far as I remember.

Out of interest, are there any other UK examples that are similar to that of the Birkenhead Tunnel? i.e. restricted height and width, with oncoming traffic

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Double deck buses have used the tunnel since it opened in 1934 albeit initially on a limited basis. The cross-river services, as we see them now, began in the 1970s under Merseyside PTE and have continued ever since

A standard double-decker bus is typically about 4.2–4.4 metres high.

The old Mersey Tunnel—the Queensway/Birkenhead Tunnel—has a normal maximum height limit of 3.9 metres. However, local passenger buses may be granted permission to use it up to 4.75 metres, provided they use a middle lane when over 3.9 metres.

Again, my ignorance is showing here. For comparison, how tall were double decker buses in 1934?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Probably equidistant (or as close as dammit) to Birkenhead Central

....except it's in a tunnel

Yeah, although Birkenhead Central is more of a pain to get to because you have to get across the dual carriageway first. Central also has 6tph but it's not at an even headway, there are two 15-minute gaps in service every hour. At least Conway Park, as a more modern station, is fully accessible and has a more even headway.

The service being split across two stations makes it even less convenient to change from bus to train in Birkenhead, though. It's not so bad coming from Liverpool, but going into Liverpool it's tricky. I'm not a regular in Birkenhead by any means, but I normally take the bus from the bus station across the river simply because it is less faff.