Trainline selling misleading tickets

[AlterEgo]

"The railway" is in this case going to be marking its own homework, so yes, I suspect you're right

(Not sure about the 3 months in 12 years argument though. If the validation is "you don't have a railcard that will be valid on the date of travel - buy one before you can buy your ticket" its potentially 3 months every year for regular users of advances, surely?)

An easier way to look at this is to assume that yes, the user is a regular traveller and regularly uses Advances.

I have a Disabled Railcard and let us assume I will qualify for the rest of my life. I renew it every three years on expiry. The first time I got one, let's say it was in April 2010. But I couldn't speculatively buy any tickets in January 2010 before the Railcard arrived. Over the course of my life, how many months total validity have I lost? It's three.

(Also note that the Disabled Railcard requires qualification and you cannot be certain it will arrive unless and until the team are satisfied with your documents, so that's one set of users already allegedly - but not really - "disadvantaged" but nothing is ever made of this because so what?)

It's different if I am not a regular user of Advances, yes, because perhaps I might strategically wait to renew, but that isn't the scenario at hand here. Someone who doesn't use them regularly is far less affected because they're unlikely to have cause to use the "missing" validity at the end, and if they do, well, they renew, and the clock starts again. It's three months every year only if:

- they get a one year Railcard every time
- they buy an advance ticket three months out and then not buy another one for at least another three months
- need to also do exactly the same the following year

In this instance, I suspect realist and pessimist are one and the same thing

Upgrade me to a sceptic!

 

[SuspectUsual]

It's three months every year only if:

- they get a one year Railcard every time
- they buy an advance ticket three months out and then not buy another one for at least another three months
- need to also do exactly the same the following yea

Depends on the validation used doesn’t it? “Has a valid railcard at point of purchase” vs “has a railcard at point of purchase that will be valid at time of travel”

Upgrade me to a sceptic!

Now you’re talking

 

[AlterEgo]

Depends on the validation used doesn’t it? “Has a valid railcard at point of purchase” vs “has a railcard at point of purchase that will be valid at time of travel”

It can surely only be the latter??

 

[SuspectUsual]

It can surely only be the latter??

Which was my point before. If that’s the case, and I regularly buy advances as soon as they’re released because that’s generally when they’re cheapest, then each railcard I own will only have 9-10 months use before I have to renew it because I want to buy an advance for 2-3 months time

 

[AlterEgo]

Which was my point before. If that’s the case, and I regularly buy advances as soon as they’re released because that’s generally when they’re cheapest, then each railcard I own will only have 9-10 months use before I have to renew it because I want to buy an advance for 2-3 months time

Sorry, long day - I meant the former! I'd be very surprised if this was the *exact* method of validation, but if the latter method is used I will happily join the queue of people who are criticising it.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Sorry, long day - I meant the former! I'd be very surprised if this was the *exact* method of validation, but if the latter method is used I will happily join the queue of people who are criticising it.

No worries - I couldn't work out whether it was me not explaining it properly or you not getting it, and being pretty sleep deprived at the moment I assumed it was me!

 

[walkingsophie]

The difference is that you're not going to be buying stuff 3 months before you need it, generally.

This is exactly what advance tickets encourage you to do

 

[Haywain]

This is exactly what advance tickets encourage you to do

Exactly my point.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Depends on the validation used doesn’t it? “Has a valid railcard at point of purchase” vs “has a railcard at point of purchase that will be valid at time of travel

A logical compromise would be to flag the ticket as "validated at point of purchase". The holder would not then be required to carry a railcard. If the ticket was beyond the expiry date of the current railcard or in advance of its purchase, the traveller would need to travel with the railcard as at present. The purchaser would also have to declare whether they were buying for someone else.

In this system ticket retailers would be expected to retain details of railcards purchased from them and to request details of railcards held elsewhere.

 

[Watershed]

That just opens up a whole host of friction to the user that currently do not exist though.

What if my railcard expires next week but I am booking for the week after and I plan to renew?

What if I don't have a railcard yet but will be buying one before the time of travel?

What if I am booking a ticket for someone else who I don't have their railcard details?

What if I am booking a ticket with short notice (maybe I am at the station and my train is pulling in) and don't have the time to faff around trying to find my railcard details?

I'd hope any such system would allow you to tick a box to bypass the validation to allow for such use cases as above, but given how many system changes like this I have seen that have been consumer hostile, I have my doubts.

All of these questions, and more, have been asked of those responsible for designing the new validation systems and standards. Sadly the answers have been predictably anti-customer and reflective of the lack of forethought that has gone into this knee-jerk reaction.

You can be sure the dead hand of the DfT is behind this, in their desperate attempt to recoup a perceived massive revenue loss from people traveling without valid Railcards. On the one hand I hope they are proven wrong but on the other, you know they'll not admit it, if it turns out that way.

 

[MrJeeves]

in their desperate attempt to recoup a perceived massive revenue loss from people traveling without valid Railcards

I didn't even think the claimed figure was that massive in the grand scheme of fare evasion, quite frankly.

 

[philthetube]

I would have thought that it would not be difficult for selling sites to ask purchasers using railcards if, if not remind buyers that they need on to travel, and even offer to sell one starting on travel date. they have one and offer to remember the expiry date wherever it had been bought from.

 

[styles]

I would have thought that it would not be difficult for selling sites to ask purchasers using railcards if, if not remind buyers that they need on to travel, and even offer to sell one starting on travel date. they have one and offer to remember the expiry date wherever it had been bought from.

Raileasy/the forums site does remind you before checkout that you need to travel with the Railcard, though it doesn't prompt to buy one as you suggest:


Reminder emails are sent about expiring Railcards, but you're right that if you're logged in to a retailer where you are buying tickets and originally bought their Railcard they could remember the expiry date for you and prompt you in some way during the booking process that your card will have expired by then.

It would be interesting to know though how many people are accidentally travelling with an expired Railcard vs people buying Railcard discounted tickets knowing they don't or won't have a Railcard.

 

[Adam Williams]

All of these questions, and more, have been asked of those responsible for designing the new validation systems and standards. Sadly the answers have been predictably anti-customer and reflective of the lack of forethought that has gone into this knee-jerk reaction.

Passenger-friendliness aside, the technical approach really deserves considerable further work as well - as you (and various others) have identified.

you're right that if you're logged in to a retailer where you are buying tickets and originally bought their Railcard they could remember the expiry date for you and prompt you in some way during the booking process that your card will have expired by then.

If you buy a Railcard from Raileasy, it - along with the expiry date - will show up in the drop-down whilst it's valid.

 

[saismee]

Passenger-friendliness aside, the technical approach really deserves considerable further work as well - as you (and various others) have identified.



If you buy a Railcard from Raileasy, it - along with the expiry date - will show up in the drop-down whilst it's valid.

There seems to be no reason to disallow buying a forward-dated railcard and designing the apps to restrict travel dates to between the start and end... other than that it is more effort to implement and only benefits those pesky passengers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There seems to be no reason to disallow buying a forward-dated railcard and designing the apps to restrict travel dates to between the start and end... other than that it is more effort to implement and only benefits those pesky passengers.

I believe the main reason forward-dating isn't allowed, other than for a continuous renewal, is the Start Date isn't (currently) printed on a Railcard.

 

[saismee]

I believe the main reason forward-dating isn't allowed, other than for a continuous renewal, is the Start Date isn't (currently) printed on a Railcard.

So either print it or only allow forward-dating on digital railcards. It's as simple as just not displaying the railcard until activation date if done digitally.

 

[Chiltern 165]

Sadly the answers have been predictably anti-customer

Like much of the railway!

I believe the main reason forward-dating isn't allowed, other than for a continuous renewal, is the Start Date isn't (currently) printed on a Railcard.

Could a good alternative be not allowing the ticket to be printed/downloaded until you link your railcard to your account/show your railcard for that ticket?

 

[35B]

Could a good alternative be not allowing the ticket to be printed/downloaded until you link your railcard to your account/show your railcard for that ticket?

I'd be interested to see how that works for one of my use cases.

I purchase tickets for someone with a Senior Citizen Railcard in advance, for his periodic trips away*. Tickets are purchased on my account with the retailer (I live outside the Network Card area and have no eligibility for a railcard), and I do not have (nor can easily get from him) the details of the railcard to achieve this. Tickets are always purchased with disabled assistance, so are sold on the express understanding that he needs wheelchair assistance through all stations.

Please show workings, including consideration of whether the policy is compliant with the Equalities Act 2010.

* No, I'm not convinced he is fit to be travelling either. But he wishes to, has capacity, and both rail operators and hoteliers have been willing to accept his bookings.

 

[Chiltern 165]

I'd be interested to see how that works for one of my use cases.

I purchase tickets for someone with a Senior Citizen Railcard in advance, for his periodic trips away*. Tickets are purchased on my account with the retailer (I live outside the Network Card area and have no eligibility for a railcard), and I do not have (nor can easily get from him) the details of the railcard to achieve this. Tickets are always purchased with disabled assistance, so are sold on the express understanding that he needs wheelchair assistance through all stations.

Please show workings, including consideration of whether the policy is compliant with the Equalities Act 2010.

* No, I'm not convinced he is fit to be travelling either. But he wishes to, has capacity, and both rail operators and hoteliers have been willing to accept his bookings.

How does he receive the tickets?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 17:28 ==

Another scenario I have seen are people expecting a "16-25" railcard lasts while you are 16-25, not lasting only one year. TfL has managed to make long lasting railcards/discount cards, why can't the rest of the industry?

 

[Cdd89]

Another scenario I have seen are people expecting a "16-25" railcard lasts while you are 16-25, not lasting only one year. TfL has managed to make long lasting railcards/discount cards, why can't the rest of the industry?

Would many 16-year-olds want to spend £300 on a railcard?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Would many 16-year-olds want to spend £300 on a railcard?

Almost certainly not, but I think the comparison being made is to TfL, who (correct me if I'm wrong) charge a nominal amount for a ZIP card and (again, correct me if I'm wrong) it lasts for the whole duration of age validity, not just one year. There would be nothing (except money, obvs) to just issue a free 16-25 Railcard on request from their 16th birthday, valid until their 25th birthday. It might even be cost neutral if it encourages more people in this age range to travel by train.

Which then of course extends the conversation to other Railcard products. Why bother with the £30 annual fee, why not just issue them for free or a nominal cost/deposit, to encourage more train travel?

 

[35B]

How does he receive the tickets?

They're posted to him. There’s also a separate issue about the LNER basket functionality but that’s for another thread

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 19:49 ==

Almost certainly not, but I think the comparison being made is to TfL, who (correct me if I'm wrong) charge a nominal amount for a ZIP card and (again, correct me if I'm wrong) it lasts for the whole duration of age validity, not just one year.

TfL do exactly as you say. Though this is about eligibility as it also applies from 10

 

[Watershed]

Which then of course extends the conversation to other Railcard products. Why bother with the £30 annual fee, why not just issue them for free or a nominal cost/deposit, to encourage more train travel?

The annual revenue from the Railcard fees is quite substantial, some quick back of a napkin maths suggests it's in the region of £200-250m a year, based on the stated number of Railcards held and making a few assumptions about the uptake of 1 vs 3 year Railcards.

Moreover, charging a fee encourages people to use Railcards to get their money's worth, in the same way that people feel they need to shop at Amazon to make the most of their Prime membership.

The industry estimates that £60m of incremental revenue is driven by the availability of Railcards, so this would be nowhere near sufficient to offset the discounts obtained if you made Railcards free.