West Midlands Trains "Destination Manchester" - will it happen?

[Stossgebet]

Birmingham has far less global connections than Manchester. Because it is much more firmly in the Heathrow catchment, especially for long-haul. Maybe the odd India route (Birmingham area skews more India, Manchester and catchment more Pakistan - re disapora) - and even where they share feeders to hubs like AMS, CDG, FRA, DXB etc - Manchester has more frequency.

And you might see uptake from Tame Bridge, the new stations, etc - who are on the way towards MAN, Stafford even (which has way more service to B'ham Intl) - now see the appeal of a direct service.

Yes. Far fewer 'direct' flights around the world.
But you missed my point. Which was about connections. Instead of connecting train to plane in a different city. People would probably be better off connecting plane to plane and still using Birmingham airport. With the Star Alliance and Skyteam connections, plus Emirates and Qatar, BHX has just as many options as MAN, without risking a trip along the WCML. And if they miss a connection in AMS, DXB or FRA, then the airline is responsible for putting the passenger on the next flight or re-routing... i can't imagine a train conductor, sat at a red, in a queue of trains caught up in a fatality or track defect, oustide Kidsfeove rebooking your flights for you.

 

[frodshamfella]

Why no point? The airlines at Manchester Airport and the subsequent destinations are much larger than that at Birmingham. Manchester has more long haul destinations.

If its summer sun destinations , Birmingham , East Midlands even Luton are closer at hand, I don't think Manchester offers much that isn't already available . Manchester offers some long haul, but not a huge amount more than BHX. If you want more choice you may as well got to Heathrow and have far greater selection of airlines and destinations, and generally lower fares.

 

[WideRanger]

Consumer choice is a good thing in transport, where possible and reasonable. Just because something is possible from one airport, doesn't mean that it will always be thus. There may be differences in flight times, cost, changing points, even people's preferences for airlines. And of course, where choice is explicitly restricted, or impeded, then in a non-regulated commercially driven market, that normally has only one impact on fares - they go up.

So unless we enter a world where flight ticket prices are made uniform by regulation (even China doesn't do this, incidentally), then the interests of everyone are served by improving choices - as long as the existence of such choice doesn't have a overwhelmingly detrimental effect on some stakeholders. I'm surprised that anyone would suggest, in advance, that X person doesn't need to use Manchester Airport, because they can use other airports. Once this service starts, it will soon become apparent how much it is of use to society.

 

[Stossgebet]

Consumer choice is a good thing in transport, where possible and reasonable. Just because something is possible from one airport, doesn't mean that it will always be thus. There may be differences in flight times, cost, changing points, even people's preferences for airlines. And of course, where choice is explicitly restricted, or impeded, then in a non-regulated commercially driven market, that normally has only one impact on fares - they go up.

So unless we enter a world where flight ticket prices are made uniform by regulation (even China doesn't do this, incidentally), then the interests of everyone are served by improving choices - as long as the existence of such choice doesn't have a overwhelmingly detrimental effect on some stakeholders. I'm surprised that anyone would suggest, in advance, that X person doesn't need to use Manchester Airport, because they can use other airports. Once this service starts, it will soon become apparent how much it is of use to society.

The service will be useful, but as people have said above, for the regional connectivety, and XC relief, more so than airport usage, which is nice to have of course.

 

[tbtc]

Feels odd to see so many people dismissing the idea that a direct train to Manchester Airport would be no use whatsoever to the large number of people living around sixty miles away in Birmingham, considering the Received Wisdom on here over the years that a regular direct link to Manchester Airport was absolutely essential for Glasgow/ Edinburgh/ Leeds etc (despite them having their own airports)

(And similarly how essential it is/was/would and could be to Windermere/ Bradford/ Hull/ York/ Sheffield/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle/ Southport/ Llandudno etc)

But perish the thought that the might be sufficient amongst the million or so Brummies to add sufficient passengers to make a direct line to Manchester Airport worthwhile , eh?

(I appreciate that there are other reasons for this service, it's obviously not just about the end to end markets, I'm just commenting on the oft-repeated assertion on here that snarling up Mancunian lines is a price worth paying to give everywhere a direct link to the airport, contrasting with the dismissive attitude to the idea of those in the West Midlands making the journey north)

 

[cle]

It's so weird.

And as I mentioned, this isn't just New St, there are many stops along the way (towards Manchester, north of Birimingham) which now have a direct service.

In reality, people connecting might stay closer to home, I agree that travelling from northern Birmingham to MAN to AMS to e.g. BKK - is not going to happen that often.

But many will choose this for more extensive direct options - and a lot of people do hate Heathrow. Manchester has Virgin to JFK for example, that will be appealing.

Once HS2 opens, we may see more demand back towards LHR. BHX will really become a bucket & spade, Leeds/Bradford type by then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has there been any thoughts officially regarding the increase of platforms at Manchester Airport railway station which would allow new service patterns to take place?

 

[YorkRailFan]

This service will make accessing Manchester Airport much easier for those in the West Midlands than accessing Heathrow. A direct train to Manchester Airport is more appealing than a train to Euston and then travelling across London to get to Heathrow, Gatwick, etc. That is something that will be valued by families and those with lots of luggage.

HS2 will make getting to Heathrow easier for those in the West Midlands with the Interchange with the Elizabeth Line at Old Oak Common but for the meantime, this service opens up simpler travel opportunities for those in the West Midlands. This is undeniably a good thing.

Of course, connecting Birmingham to Manchester Airport is merely a positive consequence of this service and not the main purpose. Likewise with offering cheaper Birmingham-Manchester and London-Manchester tickets that don't use XC (former) and Avanti (latter). Places like Stoke will benefit from this hugely and these benefits seem to outweigh the losses of Alderley Edge having a reduced service.

If its summer sun destinations , Birmingham , East Midlands even Luton are closer at hand, I don't think Manchester offers much that isn't already available . Manchester offers some long haul, but not a huge amount more than BHX. If you want more choice you may as well got to Heathrow and have far greater selection of airlines and destinations, and generally lower fares.

If looking from a rail perspective, Luton and East Midlands aren't exactly simple connections from Birmingham. East Midlands involves an often overcrowded XC 170 to Leicester, EMR to East Midlands Parkway and then a bus to the airport. Luton is either a journey via London or the same XC service to Leicester and then EMR journeys. This service to Manchester Airport will be much simpler for those with luggage and family.

If you are wiling to go by train to Manchester, then you should be willing to fly from Birmingham, with the many more global connections than Manchester has, by using Star Alliance or Skyteam, knowing that your connection or subsequent missed connection, means you get re-routed and compensated, verses the hassle of dealing with insurance first, should the wcml let you down.

Many people in Birmingham fly from London and use the WCML to get there. What's the difference between that and catching a direct service to Manchester Airport? Not everyone is flying across the world on Star Alliance or Skyteam, many will be making shorter hops on budget airlines. Budget airlines don't offer connecting itineraries, they offer direct, nonstop flights. Travelling to an airport in another city by rail isn't a big deal for lots of people, especially price conscious people looking for the cheapest itinerary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When services first began to run from Birmingham to Stansted Airport, did any railway stations en route have their services affected in the way proposed for Alderley Edge?

 

[The Planner]

Has there been any thoughts officially regarding the increase of platforms at Manchester Airport railway station which would allow new service patterns to take place?

They are getting extended in length in 2028

When services first began to run from Birmingham to Stansted Airport, did any railway stations en route have their services affected in the way proposed for Alderley Edge?

Its not really a comparable scenario, I don't believe it replaced an existing service.

 

[londonteacher]

If its summer sun destinations , Birmingham , East Midlands even Luton are closer at hand, I don't think Manchester offers much that isn't already available . Manchester offers some long haul, but not a huge amount more than BHX. If you want more choice you may as well got to Heathrow and have far greater selection of airlines and destinations, and generally lower fares.

It’s not about what’s closer it’s about the destination.

As to the summer sun destinations, Manchester offers more flights with low cost airlines.

Birmingham does offer long haul but:

• No flights to the US, Manchester does have to two big US hubs JFK and Atlanta.
• No flights to Asia (except India), Manchester offers flights to the hubs of Hong Kong, Singapore.
• No flights to Africa except tourist destinations in the north, Manchester offers flights to Addis Ababa.
• They both offer Dubai, Doha and Istanbul hubs.

As has been pointed out Luton, Heathrow, Gatwick and East Midlands are not easy to get to from Birmingham or more importantly the other stations on the line. Stansted might have direct trains, but overcrowded services usually a 2 car 170 or if people are lucky a 3 car.

This service is a great addition and it’s not simply a Birmingham to Manchester Airport service, it’s an any intermediate stop service to Manchester Airport or any other immediate stop. It’s great, adding connectivity and providing more simple public transport options to and from airports.

 

[Zomboid]

If the primary point was to link Birmingham with Manchester airport, the train wouldn't be calling at Darlaston or Alsager, it'd probably be something like the diversion of an XC after Stafford and only call at Crewe, Wilmslow and the Airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, earlier in the thread, but have the operators of Manchester Airport made any official comment concerning this proposed new rail service?

 

[A S Leib]

As has been pointed out Luton, Heathrow, Gatwick and East Midlands are not easy to get to from Birmingham or more importantly the other stations on the line

Heathrow's theoretically easy (direct bus from Watford Junction with through tickets available), but because of a 30-45 minute wait between the bus and Avanti services, lack of regular Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke and Crewe to Watford services, and low levels of knowledge about the bus and through tickets, not many people would be taking that route.

 

[The Planner]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, earlier in the thread, but have the operators of Manchester Airport made any official comment concerning this proposed new rail service?

There have been various press releases.

London Northwestern Railway with direct train service from Birmingham to Manchester Airport - TravelMole

London Northwestern Railway (LNR) will introduce a new hourly train service linking Birmingham, Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester Airport from May 2027, restoring a direct rail connection between the West Midlands and the airport after decades. The service will run between Birmingham New Street and...

travelmole.com

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There have been various press releases.

London Northwestern Railway with direct train service from Birmingham to Manchester Airport - TravelMole

London Northwestern Railway (LNR) will introduce a new hourly train service linking Birmingham, Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester Airport from May 2027, restoring a direct rail connection between the West Midlands and the airport after decades. The service will run between Birmingham New Street and...

travelmole.com

I was querying if there had been press releases from Manchester Airport itself.

 

[cle]

It’s not about what’s closer it’s about the destination.

As to the summer sun destinations, Manchester offers more flights with low cost airlines.

Birmingham does offer long haul but:

• No flights to the US, Manchester does have to two big US hubs JFK and Atlanta.
• No flights to Asia (except India), Manchester offers flights to the hubs of Hong Kong, Singapore.
• No flights to Africa except tourist destinations in the north, Manchester offers flights to Addis Ababa.
• They both offer Dubai, Doha and Istanbul hubs.

As has been pointed out Luton, Heathrow, Gatwick and East Midlands are not easy to get to from Birmingham or more importantly the other stations on the line. Stansted might have direct trains, but overcrowded services usually a 2 car 170 or if people are lucky a 3 car.

This service is a great addition and it’s not simply a Birmingham to Manchester Airport service, it’s an any intermediate stop service to Manchester Airport or any other immediate stop. It’s great, adding connectivity and providing more simple public transport options to and from airports.

Also one poster mentions ST/Star a lot - but many Brits are in One World for better or worse. And Manchester offers Finnair and Cathay, and used to have Iberia until very recently.

SkyTeam flyers (KL is arguably the national airline for many!) - appreciate not just the direct JFK but the hug at Atlanta, going westbound. And SAS has joined - yes they have limited CPH from BHX, but from MAN, more + also to Oslo and Stockholm.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I was querying if there had been press releases from Manchester Airport itself.

Well there's a quote from the Managing Director of Manchester Airport in the press release from WMR:

Chris Woodroofe, managing director at Manchester Airport, said: "We're proud to serve more than 32 million passengers every year, including millions from the West Midlands and Staffordshire in the last 12 months.

"This new service is great news for them, but also for long-haul travellers from the region who might currently fly indirectly from other airports, or face a long journey to the South East.

"This service will create the first direct rail link between the West Midlands and Manchester Airport for decades and open up more options for people to reach us by public transport. In turn, it gives those travellers access to our huge global network of destinations, unrivalled in the UK outside London."

London Northwestern Railway announces direct train service from Birmingham to Manchester Airport will begin running next year

London Northwestern Railway (LNR) has announced it will introduce a new direct train service linking Birmingham and Stoke-on-Trent with Manchester Airport from May next year.This hourly rail service will run between Birmingham New Street and Manchester Airport and call at stations in the Black...

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk

 

[317 forever]

So people like me can tick airside Wetherspoons without changing trains

It's a pity that Cross Country don't do direct trains to Gatwick any more

 

[dk1]

It's a pity that Cross Country don't do direct trains to Gatwick any more

And to think Operation Princess was to bring a far more frequent direct service than the two trains each way daily. In the end nothing at all.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that we are discussing the potential WMR service to Manchester. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please start a new thread.

I have moved some off topic posts about the use of codes which can be found here:

Railway Industry Codes vs Air Industry Codes

Moderator note - split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-trains-destination-manchester-will-it-happen.295710/ Am I the first to see the glaring mistake in the picture of the four people holding the plane display stating MIA as one of the two airport codes....MIA is the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[em81]

One consequence would be a further reduction in cross-boundary public transport connectivity between East Cheshire and Greater Manchester, which is already poor.

IMO, it would be better just to extend the existing Northern service from Manchester via Styal to Stoke, and add an hourly stop at Stone to the Birmingham-Stoke-Macclesfield-Manchester service.

You could also argue that at present most of the railway lines in Cheshire are either for a train to Manchester or a train to Liverpool. Trains to the other neighbouring counties are a lot more limited.

Speed is not the only factor though. A change increases the chances of a cancellation and raises people’s anxiety about connections. I know we’re back to the “through trains to everywhere” argument…

Agreed. You only have to look at the Stockport to Chester peak time extras in the evening. They're mainly carrying passengers who are commuting from Stockport, Altrincham or Knutsford. The people commuting from Manchester tend to stick to the direct services.

Given Styal only had a Parliamentary service until very recently, and given that Styal isn't in Greater Manchester, I doubt that anyone particularly cares about that.

Styal was served by a heavily subsided 200 bus service between Wilmslow and Manchester Airport via Styal. The regular Styal train stop was added the same year funding was axed for the 200 bus service, which I think also coincided with the Manchester rail timetable recast.

 

[jfollows]

Styal was served by a heavily subsided 200 bus service between Wilmslow and Manchester Airport via Styal. The regular Styal train stop was added the same year funding was axed for the 200 bus service, which I think also coincided with the Manchester rail timetable recast.

The 2018 timetable didn’t allow for a Styal call; up trains which called there arrived in Crewe too late to allow for the defined turn-around time there to form the return working to Manchester. The few services that did call at Styal had the return workings delayed appropriately to comply. Similarly for the reverse direction. The timetable recast got rid of this restriction so trains might as well call now.
Just another ramification of the 2018 timetable.
Today the up trains wait for ages at Wilmslow to follow the Avanti fast service, and the down trains wait for ages at Manchester Airport, in both cases allowing changes to faster trains for Crewe or Manchester.

 

[em81]

Manchester Airport rail links should be for the benefit of the cross-Pennine ones.

I don't agree. Leeds has its own airport.

In my opinion airport train services should be more like the German or Swiss model. Plenty of local and frequent S-Bahn style commuter services, with a limited number of long distance services.

There once was talk made of Calder Valley line stations (in the Transpennine belt) having a direct service to Manchester Airport. Whatever happened to that aspiration?

The plan was half-hourly Airport to Huddersfield (then Middlesbrough/Newcastle) inter worked by half-hourly Airport to Todmorden (then Bradford/Blackburn). Chris Grayling cut the funding for infrastructure improvements between Castlefield and Piccadilly and Network Rail decided the existing infrastructure couldn't handle it.

 

[A S Leib]

In my opinion airport train services should be more like the German or Swiss model. Plenty of local and frequent S-Bahn style commuter services, with a limited number of long distance services.

I don't know why that may be the case; everything serving Geneva Airport's at least an interregional or regional express service. (The one I'm most familiar with there is also an exception, but given Frankfurt's size, it's more understandable.)

 

[Tester]

I don't agree. Leeds has its own airport.

In my opinion airport train services should be more like the German or Swiss model. Plenty of local and frequent S-Bahn style commuter services, with a limited number of long distance services.



The plan was half-hourly Airport to Huddersfield (then Middlesbrough/Newcastle) inter worked by half-hourly Airport to Todmorden (then Bradford/Blackburn). Chris Grayling cut the funding for infrastructure improvements between Castlefield and Piccadilly and Network Rail decided the existing infrastructure couldn't handle it.

100% of the Swiss airports I can think of do not follow this Swiss model.

Which ones are you thinking of?

 

[em81]

100% of the Swiss airports I can think of do not follow this Swiss model.

Which ones are you thinking of?

I was thinking more of Berlin, Munich and Cologne airports. From my limited experience of the Swiss system there's a wide selection of stations accessible by direct services from the airport, not like Manchester Airport with a focus on 2 regional express routes.

Thinking about it Switzerland and Austria are probably two of the European countries where an internal flight doesn't make sense.

 

[Watershed]

I was thinking more of Berlin, Munich and Cologne airports. From my limited experience of the Swiss system there's a wide selection of stations accessible by direct services from the airport, not like Manchester Airport with a focus on 2 regional express routes.

Thinking about it Switzerland and Austria are probably two of the European countries where an internal flight doesn't make sense.

There are 8 flights a day between Zurich and Geneva on a typical weekday. And 2 between Innsbruck and Vienna.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There’s certainly an argument that Manchester Airport would be better served by an S-Bahn/Airport Express-style service to Manchester Piccadilly with onward connections from there into regional and long distance rail. But that’s not how things have evolved at Manchester and platform 13/14 at Piccadilly are a big part of why. For anything from the north/west of Manchester it makes more sense to run things through to the Airport rather than terminate on platform 13/14.

I’m surprised that they can’t find a way of allowing the LNWR to call at Alderley Edge to maintain direct links to the airport from there. But otherwise the waiting time at the airport meant that it was always quicker for those heading beyond the airport to wait for the direct train to Manchester rather than the one via the airport.

 

[jfollows]

I’m surprised that they can’t find a way of allowing the LNWR to call at Alderley Edge to maintain direct links to the airport from there. But otherwise the waiting time at the airport meant that it was always quicker for those heading beyond the airport to wait for the direct train to Manchester rather than the one via the airport.

Likewise, but I suspect the majority of potential users have given up with an unreliable train service and use a taxi now, I said above that I certainly do. It's not worth the hassle, inconvenience and doubt compared to a door-to-door service, although I know that for some people the cost will factor in as more important than it currently does to me.
I used to go by train to the airport but the only-hourly service in the return direction meant that I couldn't be bothered to wait.

Maybe more important is the reduction in the trains Alderley Edge-Crewe which come from this change.