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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

Penyfal ccfc

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In whose opinion?

All the reports I have seen have said that they are perfectly ok in terms of passenger environment, including by those who admit to being surprised to say so.
I use the luas and the dart regularly, they are both perfectly ok for short hops and journeys up to half hour, 40 minutes at a stretch, over that I’ll take the creature comforts of heavy rail, plonking trams on the tam valley lines where journey times can be over hour is a pointless downgrade. The flirts that run up there now are perfectly fine.
 
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John R

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I use the luas and the dart regularly, they are both perfectly ok for short hops and journeys up to half hour, 40 minutes at a stretch, over that I’ll take the creature comforts of heavy rail, plonking trams on the tam valley lines where journey times can be over hour is a pointless downgrade. The flirts that run up there now are perfectly fine.
The flirts might be perfectly fine, but they are a stop-gap measure and were never intended to run on the route.

There was never the project and ongoing operational budget to run heavy rail units on the TAM lines and double the frequency. Ask the users in two years would they like their flirts back and a half hourly service up each valley or keep the trams and 4tph and I suspect the answer would be to keep the 4tph by a very wide margin.
 

VR494

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Looks like a single 15x will be covering the bay boxed in tomorrow on a VST diagram.

Why they haven't looked at running these things on lines that are more acceptable for them though? The continuity to push for this full tram-train on the TAM, when those routes need a heavy rail unit due to the conditions.

I read somewhere they stated it was not possible to have 4tph with normal heavy rail. But that raises suspicion they do plan to implement line of sight throughout eventually, eroding staff conditions for a cheaper alternative as I've mentioned on here before to pack them in.

They are easily the most suitable units for the Coryton-Radyr and Cardiff Bay shuttles. I just can't see how they can get the 4tph to each head of the valley, the Bay is not the most common destination, and it will annoy commuters having to change for Central. Then there's the bottle neck of the Bay and if that goes wrong the service is up. And you can't just step up a 398 for a Barry or a Rhymney etc. Then this line of sight to heavy rail transfer area, how is that going to work getting the units in order for the timetable? I hear they don't want one eventually, but you still have to have one for the ARS system to work. You can't just go send one there now and up there please!

I don't think this has been properly thought out and just wades of cash thrown down the well!
 

positron

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I think the reason they need the 398s for the 4tph is because they accelerate faster than the FLIRTs. I think that Queen street north is probably where that's most important but obviously also lots of single track sections to clear in the tops of the valleys too.

I suspect the only line of sight we'll see anytime soon is going to be the Bay, CrossRail and Hirwaun extension (due to level crossing). No where else really benefits from it.
 

chargesmith

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The 398 diagrams are still up on RTT for tomorrow so will be interesting to see if they disappear later today, or if they end up heading back out.

Nothing out today it seems.
 

Penyfal ccfc

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I think the reason they need the 398s for the 4tph is because they accelerate faster than the FLIRTs. I think that Queen street north is probably where that's most important but obviously also lots of single track sections to clear in the tops of the valleys too.

I suspect the only line of sight we'll see anytime soon is going to be the Bay, CrossRail and Hirwaun extension (due to level crossing). No where else really benefits from it.
The 398 top speed is only 60mph, no idea of the comparative accelerations, but surly it cant be more than few seconds 0 to 60 quicker than a flirt.
 

chargesmith

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The 398 top speed is only 60mph, no idea of the comparative accelerations, but surly it cant be more than few seconds 0 to 60 quicker than a flirt.
It's noticeably quicker to 60. Best place to feel it so far is Llandaff to Cathays as the line speed allows for full acceleration out of the platform. Will be great on the Treherbert line where some of the stops are quite close together, and hopefully when they bed in will allow more stations to be built.
 

Peter Sarf

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I think the reason they need the 398s for the 4tph is because they accelerate faster than the FLIRTs. I think that Queen street north is probably where that's most important but obviously also lots of single track sections to clear in the tops of the valleys too.
Agree.
I suspect the only line of sight we'll see anytime soon is going to be the Bay, CrossRail and Hirwaun extension (due to level crossing). No where else really benefits from it.
I am inclined to agree. Line of sight also means a lower speed to allow for stopping within range of sight. The standard signalling on the heavy rail sections would most likely be essential to allow speeds to stay higher than on road.
The 398 top speed is only 60mph, no idea of the comparative accelerations, but surly it cant be more than few seconds 0 to 60 quicker than a flirt.
Oh I expect the 398s accelerate really well. If anything like the trams in Croydon then hold on tightly when on off street sections !.
 

Markdvdman

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From TFW website:

Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay (CDB):

Services may be cancelled in both directions between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay (CDB).

We expect the incident to last until the end of the day and disruption to services is expected until the end of the day.

What's Happened?

Due to a shortage of our Class 398 Fleet, we have fewer trains available to run today's service.

Services between Pontypridd and Cardiff Bay will be disrupted and may have different trains to normal in use

Our engineers are working hard to bring trains back into service as quickly as possible. We apologise for any disruption caused to your journey.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I noticed someone above reported these 398s will give Butetown a service once a week, on Sundays. I laughed out loud at that. That's so embarrassing.
 

Peter Sarf

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From TFW website:

Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay (CDB):

Services may be cancelled in both directions between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay (CDB).

We expect the incident to last until the end of the day and disruption to services is expected until the end of the day.

What's Happened?

Due to a shortage of our Class 398 Fleet, we have fewer trains available to run today's service.

Services between Pontypridd and Cardiff Bay will be disrupted and may have different trains to normal in use

Our engineers are working hard to bring trains back into service as quickly as possible. We apologise for any disruption caused to your journey.
My italics - dare I infer the disruption is just for today......
I noticed someone above reported these 398s will give Butetown a service once a week, on Sundays. I laughed out loud at that. That's so embarrassing.
Tis a bit cringe worthy.

Plus, if my optimism expressed above is proved incorrect then I have doubts about next Sundays special service to Butetown.
EDIT - I overlooked that apparently it is not even scheduled until December.
 
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chargesmith

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I noticed someone above reported these 398s will give Butetown a service once a week, on Sundays. I laughed out loud at that. That's so embarrassing.
I believe that was posted on a different forum, namely the South Wales Metro updates. It may be on here as well but it's hard to follow specific talking points with all the noise caused by reactions to one specific poster.

At least the Butetown poster has provided evidence for their claim though...
 

Cowley

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I believe that was posted on a different forum, namely the South Wales Metro updates. It may be on here as well but it's hard to follow specific talking points with all the noise caused by reactions to one specific poster.

At least the Butetown poster has provided evidence for their claim though...

I think we’re going to draw a line under the “one specific poster” comments (and I’m not singling you out here @chargesmith).

We’re going to do a couple of things behind the scenes now, but we are comfortable with the information that’s been posted, or it wouldn’t have been allowed.

Thanks
 

5021

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Oswestry
Agree.

I am inclined to agree. Line of sight also means a lower speed to allow for stopping within range of sight. The standard signalling on the heavy rail sections would most likely be essential to allow speeds to stay higher than on road.

As on the Manchester Metrolink!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My italics - dare I infer the disruption is just for today......

Tis a bit cringe worthy.

Plus, if my optimism expressed above is proved incorrect then I have doubts about next Sundays special service to Butetown.
The "Sunday special" Butetown service isn't due to start till 13th December with the national timetable change, as already stated by previous posters on the South Wales Metro thread and now shown in Realtime Trains.
 
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SWML9102

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bridgend
30 minute shuttle only using 150258 this morning, no 398s. Unsure why this couldn't at least be made a 15 minute frequency as a stopgap. Under ATW the Bay shuttle was every 12 mins using just one unit.
 

Coleridge

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30 minute shuttle only using 150258 this morning, no 398s. Unsure why this couldn't at least be made a 15 minute frequency as a stopgap. Under ATW the Bay shuttle was every 12 mins using just one unit.

It's puzzling, isn't it, why the usual frequency can't be maintained on what is a four-minute journey.

TfW continues to say, as it did yesterday, and the day before, that "disruption to services is expected until 23:59 today". Let's hope they have a rather more long-term plan behind the scenes.
 

Peter Sarf

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


The "Sunday special" Butetown service isn't due to start till 13th December with the national timetable change, as already stated by previous posters on the South Wales Metro thread and now shown in Realtime Trains.
Ah, ha. Sorry I overlooked that date :oops:
 
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30 minute shuttle only using 150258 this morning, no 398s. Unsure why this couldn't at least be made a 15 minute frequency as a stopgap. Under ATW the Bay shuttle was every 12 mins using just one unit.
Why can't they send the Sprinter to the bay and back 4 times per hour? The service is now in the realms of embarrassing, it's a one mile shuttle between 2 stations for god's sake.
 

MikePJ

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Is it perhaps because they want to limit the number of running hours on the 150s?
 

fgw_43025

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15 Mar 2014
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Why can't they send the Sprinter to the bay and back 4 times per hour? The service is now in the realms of embarrassing, it's a one mile shuttle between 2 stations for god's sake.
I’m sure it’s not as simple as we only need 1 unit so let’s run it back and fore 4 times an hour all day. Said unit has to be staffed by both drivers and guards all day from 6 in the morning to after midnight. Driver and guard rosters throughout the day would have to be altered not just for when working the Bay branch but for any other valley lines services the staff might have found themselves working later in the day. Seems simple ask on the face of it but the reality is anything but.
 
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I’m sure it’s not as simple as we only need 1 unit so let’s run it back and fore 4 times an hour all day. Said unit has to be staffed by both drivers and guards all day from 6 in the morning to after midnight. Driver and guard rosters throughout the day would have to be altered not just for when working the Bay branch but for any other valley lines services the staff might have found themselves working later in the day. Seems simple ask on the face of it but the reality is anything but.
Show did ATW manage to do 5tph back in the day? It can't be insurmountable.
 

35B

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Show did ATW manage to do 5tph back in the day? It can't be insurmountable.
It almost certainly isn't. But "back in the day" is based on a previous timetable, with associated rosters. If you change one bit, others change too
 

Coleridge

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Plenty of Bay shuttles showing today on RTT

Yes, it's back to a 4 tph shuttle today, operated by 150283.

I wonder if any of our insiders know - and are able to share - what the specific problem is that has confined the 398s to the depot?
 

tomoufc

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12 Dec 2014
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Yes, it's back to a 4 tph shuttle today, operated by 150283.

I wonder if any of our insiders know - and are able to share - what the specific problem is that has confined the 398s to the depot?
Lack of shower curtains
 

Daniel Boone

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Nation.Cymru associate editor Martin Shipton just published a piece on the 398s.

https://nation.cymru/news/concern-as-further-delays-hit-roll-out-of-tram-trains/
Continuing delays in the roll-out of tram-trains on the south Wales Valleys Lines have prompted concerns that the Welsh Government-owned company Transport for Wales may have bought the wrong trains.
A spokesperson for the company said: “We identified an issue during passenger testing of the Class 398 tram-train fleet and we’re working closely with Transport for Wales to address it.

“These are brand-new trains and it’s completely normal to identify minor issues when first being introduced to a network.

“Our investigation has confirmed a software issue, which we’re now in the process of updating.
 

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