Or between June and December 2027. Don't forget some of the infrastructure (not the signalling) dates back to the 1930s & 1950s. If the 2024 stock is not in traffic by Autumn 2027 then something is not right or gone wrong, in my opinion.
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2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)
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bluegoblin7
Established Member
The signalling also goes back to the 1950s… (and some bits beyond!)
I would be relatively confident of a 24TS operating in service by late 2027, if not sooner.
I would be relatively confident of a 24TS operating in service by late 2027, if not sooner.
Pakenhamtrain
Established Member
I hadn't previously noticed the step built in to the coupler, presumably to allow easy access/egress to the M door for staff - not particularly necessary on previous stocks with the far smaller Wedgelocks.
It's quite cute tbh
That can be fraught with danger. The little ****s in Sydney have taken to riding the back step of the Tangara trains.
RUK
Member
I’ve always wanted to see photos of them side-by-side, so thank you for that. It’d be good to compare the side profiles of them, too. I’ve just noticed that the 1973 Stock has a windscreen wiper for the cab end door, whereas the 2024 Tube Stock doesn’t, so presumably it was deemed no longer necessary.
I am wondering about the procurement process for London Underground Stock - are all of the bidders for future stock invited to be given a tour and have a look around the cab and saloon environments of all of the existing different types of stock on all the different lines, and the depots where the stock will be maintained, and Train Operators and maintenance staff etc. asked to state what they like and don’t like about each model of stock and chat to the bidders, to inform the procurement of future stock? They can also then see what sort of materials used in existing stock might wear out more quickly than might be desired. That sort of “show-and-tell” and “touchy-feely” process seems like it might be more informative to produce constant improvements in each new type of stock, rather than just simply a dry, written technical specification. Are there ergonomic studies, such as filming Train Operators while working to see how far they have to reach for the controls, and if that causes any postural strain, etc.? The time taken for London Underground and their staff to do so seems like it’d pay off in improvements in their working environment. I suppose e.g. SIEMENS’ design team in Germany/Austria are unlikely to have experienced what it’s like to ride on and operate the 1973, 1972, and 1992 Stocks that the 2024 Stock are meant to be replacing, if there’s no process like that.
For example, for the equipment that I use in my field, they attach sensors to the muscles, to see how much force is required to use the equipment, during development of the product, in order to reduce it as much as possible:
Do they do something similar with Train Operators and fit them out with sensors to gather data and build a model of how their arm, wrist, hand, and fingers are positioned and used, to refine the amount of weight and force required to use the controls?
I am wondering about the procurement process for London Underground Stock - are all of the bidders for future stock invited to be given a tour and have a look around the cab and saloon environments of all of the existing different types of stock on all the different lines, and the depots where the stock will be maintained, and Train Operators and maintenance staff etc. asked to state what they like and don’t like about each model of stock and chat to the bidders, to inform the procurement of future stock? They can also then see what sort of materials used in existing stock might wear out more quickly than might be desired. That sort of “show-and-tell” and “touchy-feely” process seems like it might be more informative to produce constant improvements in each new type of stock, rather than just simply a dry, written technical specification. Are there ergonomic studies, such as filming Train Operators while working to see how far they have to reach for the controls, and if that causes any postural strain, etc.? The time taken for London Underground and their staff to do so seems like it’d pay off in improvements in their working environment. I suppose e.g. SIEMENS’ design team in Germany/Austria are unlikely to have experienced what it’s like to ride on and operate the 1973, 1972, and 1992 Stocks that the 2024 Stock are meant to be replacing, if there’s no process like that.
For example, for the equipment that I use in my field, they attach sensors to the muscles, to see how much force is required to use the equipment, during development of the product, in order to reduce it as much as possible:
Do they do something similar with Train Operators and fit them out with sensors to gather data and build a model of how their arm, wrist, hand, and fingers are positioned and used, to refine the amount of weight and force required to use the controls?
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Dstock7080
Established Member
1973 Stock drivers are required to view platform mounted mirrors/monitors through the front windows, 2024TS have in-cab monitors and the platform stopping chevrons are positioned for viewing through front windscreens.
Instructor Operators sit on that side and are required to ensure trainees don't pass red signals and watch passengers moving towards the edge of platforms and a whole host of other observations.
The IOs have already complained they can't see much from the IO seat and don't have a good enough view of the in-cab monitors when closing doors with trainees.
RUK
Member
I don’t understand why they are churning out more units of 2024 Stock if not everyone is happy with the design yet? Surely that just means more expense in modifying the number of units already built? Are SIEMENS purposely creating more work for themselves for later, so that they can get more money out of TfL? Can TfL even afford it? It will just create more delay overall until all of the trains are in service, so the 1973 Stock will have to be kept going for longer as well.
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bcarmicle
Member
- Joined
- 11 May 2018
- Messages
- 409
Presumably Siemens are contractually required to deliver trains to the contractual spec by certain dates, and to delay that would risk contractual penalties unless TfL were to agree to waive them. I suspect TfL have no interest in taking the political flak for agreeing to that.
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 13,194
In addition to the comment above. Manufacturing drawings are signed off for production; contractors and staff are fully deployed; materials are being supplied to the assembly line in accordance with a delivery schedule.
Is there is a fundamental reason as to why production needs to be paused, rather than delivering the vehicles first and agreeing the scope of the modifications and/or remedial works later down the line?
RUK
Member
Isn’t it more difficult to modify things later than to make them right from scratch? I suppose the modifications will be newer than the rest of the train, but the whole train could be newer if it were made later, after the modified design were agreed. Will the build quality of something that’s modified be as good as if it were designed and built the right/final way from the beginning, rather than bodged together afterwards? I suppose it’s a problem with the design not being agreed/specified well in the first place. It might have been better to just make a prototype and test it for longer than they have done, before starting to make the rest of the trains.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
Most LU fleets have had modifications after introduction. It's a total non-issue.
I imagine Siemen's production lines are booked months and years in advance, with components being sourced in line with the needs of the production line. If you pause the TfL trains, a contract for another operator can't just jump the queue to keep production lines running.
Central
Member
It was confirmed on another forum.
Momodou2003
Member
Hi is their any update on the new Piccadilly line trains with regards to daytime testing and also entry to service will we get informed when the first train will enter service?
rmHawk765
Member
Didn't some of these have modifications made to prevent hanging?
Beno and train surfing
brad465
Veteran Member
Not to mention 007 trying to catch a villain.
Pakenhamtrain
Established Member
They have a duck bill now but all they did was break into the cab and open the exit.
Momodou2003
Member
Looks like trains are doing live testing on the line
bluegoblin7
Established Member
Source?
Momodou2003
Member
Intertube train number 769 did two trips one from Northfields to Arnos Grove and a second one from Acton Town to Ruislip
bluegoblin7
Established Member
There's no record of a 769 running today - and, indeed, given that LUL (generally) doesn't use 8s or 9s in its train numbers due to signalling incompatibility would be incredibly unusual.
I assume you in fact mean 767 - this is the designated number for the Track Recording Train, which completed a number of trips across the Picc today as part of its cyclical work.
Nothing to do with 24TS testing - this is where a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and nothing should be inferred into 7xx numbers on Intertube.
Some 73TS test/transfer paths have also operated, partially in conjunction with leaf fall arrangements, using 70x numbers. 24TS are still not cleared for traffic hours operation.
I assume you in fact mean 767 - this is the designated number for the Track Recording Train, which completed a number of trips across the Picc today as part of its cyclical work.
Nothing to do with 24TS testing - this is where a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and nothing should be inferred into 7xx numbers on Intertube.
Some 73TS test/transfer paths have also operated, partially in conjunction with leaf fall arrangements, using 70x numbers. 24TS are still not cleared for traffic hours operation.
Momodou2003
Member
Yeah it was number 767 oh I see that’s fine thanks for letting me know.
brad465
Veteran Member
Apologies if I've missed this, but are there plans to raise the line speed of the Piccadilly line with the new stock, given the higher top speed (62mph vs 45mph)? I imagine it would get utilised in sections such as Hammersmith-Acton Town and straighter parts of the Uxbridge and Heathrow branches.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
No, line speed is still constrained by the legacy signalling.
If Piccadilly resignalling happens then maybe, but any immediate gains will come from the increased acceleration/deceleration. Stock speed isn't the defining factor.
There will still be a need for the TRV (or replacement) to both calibrate the data from the 24TS and to measure things that aren't possible with passenger-borne kit, in the same way that other LUL lines with ATMS (Automatic Track Monitoring System)-fitted trains are still visited by the TRV.
No different really to the mainline - many trains now have some level of monitoring data on board, but still requires the Network Rail yellow (or increasingly light blue) trains to run around too.
If Piccadilly resignalling happens then maybe, but any immediate gains will come from the increased acceleration/deceleration. Stock speed isn't the defining factor.
There will still be a need for the TRV (or replacement) to both calibrate the data from the 24TS and to measure things that aren't possible with passenger-borne kit, in the same way that other LUL lines with ATMS (Automatic Track Monitoring System)-fitted trains are still visited by the TRV.
No different really to the mainline - many trains now have some level of monitoring data on board, but still requires the Network Rail yellow (or increasingly light blue) trains to run around too.
Better acceleration and braking may still make journeys slightly shorter though, and will help in delay recovery.
Adrian Barr
Member
One thing I noticed with the stock moves on Network Rail metals is that the vehicles exist in TOPS with a 9 added to the front of the painted number, so that 48001 becomes 948001 and so on.
Looking at the 48xxx vehicles, these are the current TOPS locations of the ones that have moved on Network Rail (the missing numbers are shown at 00000 meaning their location has not been "initial loaded" to TOPS yet):
48001 AT GASWOODGB ARR 12.50 ON 20-6X261 02/04/26
48004 AT CAMD 2102 ARR 00.23 ON 20-6X211 17/07/25
48008 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 17.02 ON 45-6X102 24/06/26
48009 AT GASWOODGB ARR 11.35 ON 23-6X351 23/07/26
48030 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 08.27 ON 89-6X071 12/09/25
48031 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 08.28 ON 72-6X24C 23/01/26
48032 AT GASWOODGB ARR 13.07 ON 20-6X261 24/04/26
48062 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 13.14 ON 89-6X211 10/10/25
48063 AT GASWOODGB ARR 12.55 ON 20-6X261 10/08/26
48064 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 11.14 ON 16-6X781 04/09/26
48065 AT OLD DALBY ARR 14.15 ON 20-6X261 25/06/26
48066 AT OLD DALBY ARR 16.59 ON 20-6X241 20/07/26
48067 AT OLD DALBY ARR 17.00 ON 20-6X221 19/08/26
48074 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 13.32 ON 45-6X411 14/08/26
48075 AT GASWOODGB ARR 11.30 ON 23-6X351 09/06/26
48076 AT GASWOODGB ARR 13.14 ON 23-6X431 02/09/26
48077 AT OLD DALBY ARR 16.34 ON 20-6X221 27/08/26
As far as I know, all the trains have moved together as complete 9-car formations so the location of 48001 should match 38001 and so on. The info should be correct but as with all TOPS data there can occasionally be errors...
Vehicles moved to London Underground for testing are shown at West Ruislip (48030 / 48031 / 48062). The reason for 48004 being shown at CAMDEN SIGNAL 2102 is due to a typo - this location has a Stanox number of 72423 in TOPS and West Ruislip LUL Depot is 73423.
**
Movements on the main line in the UK this month have been:
38064 / 48064 moved from Gascoigne Wood to Goole as 6X78 on the 4th September.
38076 / 48076 moved on 2nd September from Old Dalby to Peterborough as 6X30, forward as 6X34 to Doncaster Down Decoy and 6X43 to Gascoigne Wood.
The 6X34 working is seen in profile with 57306 and 57310 either end:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manxnorton/55504377937/ (Photo: MANX NORTON)
Looking at the 48xxx vehicles, these are the current TOPS locations of the ones that have moved on Network Rail (the missing numbers are shown at 00000 meaning their location has not been "initial loaded" to TOPS yet):
48001 AT GASWOODGB ARR 12.50 ON 20-6X261 02/04/26
48004 AT CAMD 2102 ARR 00.23 ON 20-6X211 17/07/25
48008 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 17.02 ON 45-6X102 24/06/26
48009 AT GASWOODGB ARR 11.35 ON 23-6X351 23/07/26
48030 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 08.27 ON 89-6X071 12/09/25
48031 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 08.28 ON 72-6X24C 23/01/26
48032 AT GASWOODGB ARR 13.07 ON 20-6X261 24/04/26
48062 AT WRUISDPGB ARR 13.14 ON 89-6X211 10/10/25
48063 AT GASWOODGB ARR 12.55 ON 20-6X261 10/08/26
48064 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 11.14 ON 16-6X781 04/09/26
48065 AT OLD DALBY ARR 14.15 ON 20-6X261 25/06/26
48066 AT OLD DALBY ARR 16.59 ON 20-6X241 20/07/26
48067 AT OLD DALBY ARR 17.00 ON 20-6X221 19/08/26
48074 AT GOOLEGWGB ARR 13.32 ON 45-6X411 14/08/26
48075 AT GASWOODGB ARR 11.30 ON 23-6X351 09/06/26
48076 AT GASWOODGB ARR 13.14 ON 23-6X431 02/09/26
48077 AT OLD DALBY ARR 16.34 ON 20-6X221 27/08/26
As far as I know, all the trains have moved together as complete 9-car formations so the location of 48001 should match 38001 and so on. The info should be correct but as with all TOPS data there can occasionally be errors...
Vehicles moved to London Underground for testing are shown at West Ruislip (48030 / 48031 / 48062). The reason for 48004 being shown at CAMDEN SIGNAL 2102 is due to a typo - this location has a Stanox number of 72423 in TOPS and West Ruislip LUL Depot is 73423.
**
Movements on the main line in the UK this month have been:
38064 / 48064 moved from Gascoigne Wood to Goole as 6X78 on the 4th September.
38076 / 48076 moved on 2nd September from Old Dalby to Peterborough as 6X30, forward as 6X34 to Doncaster Down Decoy and 6X43 to Gascoigne Wood.
The 6X34 working is seen in profile with 57306 and 57310 either end:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manxnorton/55504377937/ (Photo: MANX NORTON)