Caledonian Sleeper

[styles]

If we're appealing predominantly to those who would use youth hostels and want budget travel, yes absolutely. But thats not the market for the cabins and indeed, thats who the seats are intended for.

Couchettes would put off a good range of people. My partner wouldn't go anywhere near, and I'd be incredibly hesitant (and I'm quite happy to stay in a youth hostel).

You've got to bare in mind that those who are prepared to pay the (quite high) fees for the berths are more likely to spend a good bit of money in the lounge car, all of which adds to the viability of the sleeper.

I'm not saying couchettes are a bad idea, but when the sleeper is filling most nights a good month out, what is going to be achieved here? If the pricing structure is going to be as you suggested, what happens to the seats (who would use them without a price cut)? I think if I was going to do anything, it'd be strip out the seats and add pods in their place if you can get roughly a like for like number in their place - but again, you'd have to reassess the price structure and even a like for like number would (and should) cost more.



99% of the time I have absolutely no issues. Obviously sometimes sleep comes easier than others, but ultimately you are still on a moving train - so don't go expecting the best night's sleep! Having once paid £500+ as a surprise treat for the double room, I didn't leave feeling like I got poor value for money.

I feel like something may have been lost in translation here. I'm not suggesting replacing all accommodation on the CS with couchettes. I'm suggesting either replacing some of it with couchettes, or actually maybe even considering running an additional couchettes service, as there's clearly a market for sleepers which is current exceeding supply. You'd still be able to buy a private room, and even if it were all couchettes, you could just book all of them in a cabin anyway. I reckon that 4 couchettes could sell for more than a twin classic room which doesn't even cover rights to use the lounge car. So to answer the question about what would be achieved - it would be profitability, or something closer to it anyway. The current operation mainly serves a luxury traveller market but costs the Scottish government a fortune. I'm all for subsidising environmentally friendly travel but I feel like if we're going to do it then it shouldn't be just 30 seats (which are fairly priced but still not really serving a low income market when a flight is about the same price and a tenth of the time).

 

[Tetragon213]

Nightjet style pods are another option that CS could look into, if they want pax volumes. I think you can theoretically stack pods a bit more tightly than couchettes, which can make you a hell of a lot more money. Plus, they're more private than couchettes.

Of course, couchettes are easier to convert into compo stock for daytime workings...

 

[styles]

Nightjet style pods are another option that CS could look into, if they want pax volumes. I think you can theoretically stack pods a bit more tightly than couchettes, which can make you a hell of a lot more money. Plus, they're more private than couchettes.

Of course, couchettes are easier to convert into compo stock for daytime workings...

Yeah those would work great also!

I'm a bit longer in the tooth for hostel-style type sharing so pods would be great. I don't sleep well sat upright at all so the seats are not so good, but it does make me wince a bit when I stump up for the beds.

 

[driverd]

Yeah those would work great also!

I'm a bit longer in the tooth for hostel-style type sharing so pods would be great. I don't sleep well sat upright at all so the seats are not so good, but it does make me wince a bit when I stump up for the beds.

I think it's a bit of a catch 22, though. The appeal of couchettes just isn’t there for me. Even booking all of them doesn't appeal (compared to the standards on CS currently). It's just a step down in terms of quality that I think would leave a lot of people thinking best not bother - and its the people willing to pay a lot that you would lose.

Ultimately, CS must know their market - given the choice to ditch bargain berths etc and choose an upmarket product - and broadly it seems to be working.

Is this more just that on a personal level, you feel aggrieved that a more expensive product is being subsidised? Or personal annoyance because you can no longer get a bargain berth?

Ultimately, they're consistently able to fill the sleeper without the need for bargain berths, so I think they're proving the top end product is a better return on investment than even the mk3 stock (which, whilst not couchettes, was notably less high quality than the current stock).

 

[JamieL]

The arguments about subsidy of the CS don't really stack up IMHO. The entire railway is a basket case as far as finance goes - a vortex that consumes public money - but it is justified as a whole because a functional railway network is a loss leader to support the broader economy. The CS is a microcosm of this - its high subsidy supporting the movement of High Net Worth individuals be that wealthy tourists or high earning business people. The CS enables the latter category to live and spend in their local Scottish community whilst still earning the salary that can only really be achieved in London. The idea of having couches for budget travelers doesn't really meet that requirement - such users are already served by a coach, the seated carriage or the day train.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That’s beyond my knowledge, but it is certainly a key selling point for the whole experience for many travellers. Whenever I’ve used it recently it has been doing a roaring trade.

The Highlander certainly does - you need to be quick to get a place. The Lowlander not so much, because you only spend about eight hours on the train anyway, most people want to go straight to bed. When I used the Lowlander last month, I think there were no more than four other people in the lounge.

 

[Essexman]

I travelled on the sleeper last week for the first time in almost a year. Fort William to London.

A few comments.

Departure and arrival were on time.

The ride was reasonable. I always try to book berths 5 or 6.

Due to a power problem there was no food or hot drinks in the lounge car. We were sent a text advising of this and told in the lounge at Fort William that passengers could bring their own food. Hence some hasty visits to Morrisons.

There are usually annoying noises in the berth. This time it seemed to be related to plumbing. Woosh with valve opening and closing. Possibly related to toilet in adjacent berth but not being flushed as it went on all night.

PA announcement that we were approaching Birmingham International seemed unnecessary. Potentially wakes up quite a few people and the small number alighting would be expected to have known the time, set alarms or asked for wake up. The train called right on time.

Very disappointed with the bacon roll I was served in my berth for breakfast. Looked good but was stone cold.

 

[Bill57p9]

Exactly this but more extreme.

Each Sleeper coach will, ordinarily do 6 trips a week. A Pendolino or Azuma will average around 20-25 a week, including some long trips (Anglo-Scot) and some short trips (London - W Mids or Lincoln / York), as well as middle distance.

Then each sleeper needs much more servicing; beds to strip and remake, many more toilets to empty, water to tank, bathrooms to clean, freebies to dispense, etc. And onboard the sleepers have a lot more customer hosts, all on permanent nights.

The cost base is substantial.

The whole proposition is resource hungry - and very difficult to make that more efficient: each night, 10 portions operate requiring a minimum of:

• 6 92s
• 3 73/9s
• 2 additional diesel locomotives
• The services of 3 shunters

And this is pretty much unique in a passenger operation, making it difficult to share with other operations - presumably this is why the locomotives and crews are subcontracted from GBRf rather than being vertically integrated, though the potential to share the fixed costs of these resources is very limited.

Maybe the one efficiency criticism I would make is the historic decision to go with a unique coupling (Dellner plus separate TMCS) which drives the requirement for specially modified locomotives, rather than being able to share a substantial pool.
However we are now where we are.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The whole proposition is resource hungry - and very difficult to make that more efficient: each night, 10 portions operate requiring a minimum of:

• 6 92s
• 3 73/9s
• 2 additional diesel locomotiv

Is it only six 92s?

Four for the main haul (up/down Highlander/ Lowlander)
One for the Edinburgh portion
Two for ECS at Wembley/Euston and Polmadie/Glasgow

Or can one loco do the Highlander and either the Glasgow ECS or the Edinburgh?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is it only six 92s?

Four for the main haul (up/down Highlander/ Lowlander)
One for the Edinburgh portion
Two for ECS at Wembley/Euston and Polmadie/Glasgow

Or can one loco do the Highlander and either the Glasgow ECS or the Edinburgh?

The 92 that brings in the Highlander ECS then does the Lowlander, I think

 

[JonathanH]

Or can one loco do the Highlander and either the Glasgow ECS or the Edinburgh?

The loco that does the Highlander into Edinburgh, can, and does, do the Glasgow ECS, so quite possible to only need 6 92s. This hasn't always happened though - the Highlander 92 used to spend the day at Edinburgh in the siding opposite platform 7.

92010 this morning

0D24 0458 Edinburgh to Polmadie Car M.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04527/2026-09-15/detailed
0S26 0721 Polmadie Car M.D. to Glasgow Central
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04537/2026-09-15/detailed

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 92 that brings in the Highlander ECS then does the Lowlander, I think

Yes, it does. It was what happens in Scotland I was asking about

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 11:01 ==

The loco that does the Highlander into Edinburgh, can, and does, do the Glasgow ECS, so quite possible to only need 6 92s.

92010 this morning

0D24 0458 Edinburgh to Polmadie Car M.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04527/2026-09-15/detailed
0S26 0721 Polmadie Car M.D. to Glasgow Central
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04537/2026-09-15/detailed

Thankyou . And presumably vice versa - the loco that did the ECS into Glasgow central then trundles over to Edinburgh to take the Highlander south?

Now you mention it, wasn't there a problem last week when an early morning Avanti had to be cancelled because the platfom it would have used at Glasgow was still occupied by the sleeper stock, waiting for the loco to release it to come across from Edinburgh, the loco having been delayed whilst working the northbound Highlander?

 

[NCT]

It's generous of the Scottish government to subsidise the Caledonian Sleeper (I think it's fully Scottish Government funded with no contribution from Westminster, but happy to be corrected). Given the various night train vs day train ratios discussed up thread and the hefty staffassenger ratios required for sleeper trains, if day trains are about break even, each sleeper passenger would need to pay 10x the average day-train fare for the sleeper to break even. As it stands, existing fares are already high but nowhere near 10x, and the Sleeper is already subsidy hungry.

Any attempt at offering lower fares will just add to the SG's subsidy bill. In the UK loading gauge 4-berth couchettes would not meaningfully improve the number of passengers per carriage but would significantly erode the yield. Each couchette car would require even more subsidy than a typical CS sleeper car today.

The Scottish Government is skint. It has a (relatively) fixed Barnett settlement and a very restricted borrowing limit which it is already forecast to hit for the foreseeable future. It does not have the borrowing powers a fully sovereign nation has. There is no more money.

 

[Western Gaffer]

I imagine that stories such as this ("Man accused of sexually assaulting male and female victims on the Caledonian Sleeper", in today's Scotsman) would dampen enthusiasm for sharing cabins with strangers:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ale-victims-on-the-caledonian-sleeper-9047808 is the paywalled version, archived at https://archive.is/Ct0rD

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Appalling series of allegations. Good thing these are going to court. I would expect that CS would never reconsider the issue of strangers sharing accommodation after this episode whatever the eventual outcome of the court hearing. Even the risk of being involved in a situation where an allegation is made of "the man who was sharing my cabin tried to nick my wallet in the night" is a complete no-no as far as I am concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Appalling series of allegations. Good thing these are going to court. I would expect that CS would never reconsider the issue of strangers sharing accommodation after this episode whatever the eventual outcome of the court hearing. Even the risk of being involved in a situation where an allegation is made of "the man who was sharing my cabin tried to nick my wallet in the night" is a complete no-no as far as I am concerned.

Meanwhile hostels with shared dorms still exist all over the place. Maybe not the market CS is in any more aside from the seats, but there's plenty of it, though usually single sex.

 

[najaB]

Meanwhile hostels with shared dorms still exist all over the place. Maybe not the market CS is in any more aside from the seats, but there's plenty of it, though usually single sex.

I regularly stay in hostels with shared dorms (typically two to three times a year) and while female-only dorms are relatively common, the majority of dorm rooms are mixed gender. This has been the case in Europe and North/South America, I don't know if it's any different in Asia.

 

[Tetragon213]

I imagine that stories such as this ("Man accused of sexually assaulting male and female victims on the Caledonian Sleeper", in today's Scotsman) would dampen enthusiasm for sharing cabins with strangers:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ale-victims-on-the-caledonian-sleeper-9047808 is the paywalled version, archived at https://archive.is/Ct0rD

I suppose that the "pod" option such as what you see on Nightjet or in Japan would help to alleviate this issue. However, it might not go with the "premium" styling that CS tries to go for.

 

[najaB]

I suppose that the "pod" option such as what you see on Nightjet or in Japan would help to alleviate this issue. However, it might not go with the "premium" styling that CS tries to go for.

I would expect that the pod would be an upgrade for the seated sleeper, rather than a downgrade from the rooms.

 

[styles]

I imagine that stories such as this ("Man accused of sexually assaulting male and female victims on the Caledonian Sleeper", in today's Scotsman) would dampen enthusiasm for sharing cabins with strangers:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime...ale-victims-on-the-caledonian-sleeper-9047808 is the paywalled version, archived at https://archive.is/Ct0rD

A couple of things stand out here for me.

The first is that these offences are alleged to have taken place between late 2019 and 2024, which is actually after the CS stopped offering the ability to bunk with strangers. So, I don't know if he'd have been more prolific prior to that change, but clearly their new approach hasn't come close to stopping this sort of thing from happening.

The second is, as @Bletchleyite points out, shared room hostels and shared berth sleeper trains exist the world round, including in the UK.

I do however also think that having say 4 couchettes or beds in a room instead of 2 possibly reduces the likelihood of this because there's other witnesses there.

In any case, as those alleged offences happened after the CS moved to not allowing bunking up, it's clear that the CS as an operator need to do more to prevent this. Even people in the seated section as usually sleeping for most of the night so it seems somewhat obvious to have regular walk-throughs to check things are ok, especially as, in my experience, the staff in the lounge car are unoccupied for most of the night because few people are actually going in for a 3am coffee/whisky/haggis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do however also think that having say 4 couchettes or beds in a room instead of 2 possibly reduces the likelihood of this because there's other witnesses there.

Yes, I agree there, I find sharing with one other person far more awkward than a dorm room. Most shared rooms in hostels are at least 4 bed, some a lot bigger.

I did once on the old Harwich-Hamburg ferry and found it quite awkward to be honest.

 

[styles]

Appalling series of allegations. Good thing these are going to court. I would expect that CS would never reconsider the issue of strangers sharing accommodation after this episode whatever the eventual outcome of the court hearing. Even the risk of being involved in a situation where an allegation is made of "the man who was sharing my cabin tried to nick my wallet in the night" is a complete no-no as far as I am concerned.

All of the alleged offences in that article are dated after the CS dropped the bunking up option. So yeah they could reconsider things, but ultimately the failures in these appalling allegations are not because people were sharing rooms.

 

[najaB]

Yes, I agree there, I find sharing with one other person far more awkward than a dorm room. Most shared rooms in hostels are at least 4 bed, some a lot bigger.

Yeah. The ones I've stayed in recently have been between 6 and 12 people.

 

[styles]

Yes, I agree there, I find sharing with one other person far more awkward than a dorm room. Most shared rooms in hostels are at least 4 bed, some a lot bigger.

I did once on the old Harwich-Hamburg ferry and found it quite awkward to be honest.

Yeah. The ones I've stayed in recently have been between 6 and 12 people.

There are some twin/double rooms in hostels but personally I'm either booking them with a friend or partner, or sometimes I actually just pay for both beds because it can be cheaper than a hotel (and realistically I am not often that fussed about the fancy things in a room for one night as I'm usually staying somewhere because I know I'll be out for work/hiking/kayaking/socialising quite late).

I'm much more comfortable either solo, or sharing in a room with >2 beds.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Two questions related to the CS:

1 - if the northbound Fort William is delayed, will it always be sent via Glasgow Central Low Level if there are passengers booked from there, or do they ever opt to send it direct to recover some time, and manage the stranded passengers separately?

2 - has the on time performance of the southbound Highlander into Euston got any better or worse since the Birmingham International stop was added?

 

[Sasomida]

it seems somewhat obvious to have regular walk-throughs to check things are ok, especially as, in my experience, the staff in the lounge car are unoccupied for most of the night because few people are actually going in for a 3am coffee/whisky/haggis.

I don't see how CS have more responsibility than any other TOC. That isn't to minimise responsibility, but I don't remember any train that had someone walking down it to check that no one is misbehaving. I'm not sure this story is a failure of CS.

 

[styles]

I don't see how CS have more responsibility than any other TOC. That isn't to minimise responsibility, but I don't remember any train that had someone walking down it to check that no one is misbehaving. I'm not sure this story is a failure of CS.

I'd say they have more responsibility because they're seating and bedding people overnight. It wouldn't even cost anything - from late night to early morning there's plenty of staff just sat in the club car with nothing to do because barely anybody is in there in the early hours. It wouldn't be much extra work at all to walk through the carriages while most people are asleep, and just check there isn't anything untoward going on.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'd say they have more responsibility because they're seating and bedding people overnight. It wouldn't even cost anything - from late night to early morning there's plenty of staff just sat in the club car with nothing to do because barely anybody is in there in the early hours. It wouldn't be much extra work at all to walk through the carriages while most people are asleep, and just check there isn't anything untoward going on.

If something untoward is happening in a cabin, would a member of staff even realise when they walked by? I could imagine a CS lawyer worrying that by providing this service they acknowledge the risk, and if something still happened they'd be accused of failing to prevent it

 

[3rd rail land]

I'd say they have more responsibility because they're seating and bedding people overnight. It wouldn't even cost anything - from late night to early morning there's plenty of staff just sat in the club car with nothing to do because barely anybody is in there in the early hours. It wouldn't be much extra work at all to walk through the carriages while most people are asleep, and just check there isn't anything untoward going on.

On most, if not all TOCs, the guard/conductor/train manager is expected to walk through the train periodically. I don't know how often but I know they do have to. Surely CS would have a similar requirement? That said if anything dodgy is happening then it won't be seen as it'll be happening in a cabin but perhaps it might be heard?

If something untoward is happening in a cabin, would a member of staff even realise when they walked by? I could imagine a CS lawyer worrying that by providing this service they acknowledge the risk, and if something still happened they'd be accused of failing to prevent it

Might be able to hear it. If someone is being attacked or suchlike they aren't going to be silient.

 

[Sasomida]

Might be able to hear it. If someone is being attacked or suchlike they aren't going to be silient.

Sometimes, but not always. Which brings this back to the problem that SuspectAsUsual described.