Big cats in the UK

[Sorcerer]

Having thought about it, the UK could probably sustain a small population of big cats if sticking with the strict definition of those within the Panthera clan, but not all five of these cats are equally suited.

• Leopard - Quite feasible given it's the smallest and most adaptable of the panthers, sometimes has the black coats we've seen with cryptids like the Black Beast of Exmoor, they can survive colder climates than Britain such as the Amur population in Siberia, and it could easily prey on some native deer.
• Tiger - Can also survive cold climates as seen in Siberia, but also too large to sustain in Britain given it's need for large territories and the prey requirements for a sustainable population. Britain's woodland is also too fragmented compared to Siberia given that tigers prefer more covered environments.
• Lion - Though often associated with hot environments like Africa and India, it might be able to tolerate Britain's climate better than we think. But like the tiger they require large territories and food biomass, and in this particular instance you need it for an entire pride than a single individual.
• Jaguar - Not likely. Though highly adaptable they generally prefer tropical rainforests and Britain's cooler climate combined with a lack of warm, productive habitats make sustainable populations unlikely.
• Snow leopard - Actually the least suited to Britain. The cold climates won't be a problem, but the lack of extensive rugged, high-altitude mountain habits almost certainly would be.

But in general, if Britain actually wanted to reintroduce some native wildcats, the Eurasian lynx would probably be better suited. But what they will all have in common is habitat fragmentation and inevitable conflict with humans, particularly farmers who will want to protect their livestock. I don't think actual predation on people will be an issue though.

Is that a snag? i can think of a few families were being predated might actually help the gene pool , But as others have pointed out, there is one predator, far scarier, and cunning than any feline type, no matter how big, and that's us, Humans, we rose to the top of the food chain, because we eliminated all threats to us, we hunted the things that hunted us,

This is ultimately the biggest obstacle, and we would do far more to cats than they would do to us. The only disagreement here is that we're not top of the food chain; we have elevated ourselves beyond it. We're also not apex predators, we are the ultimate generalists which gives us an edge over many other species.

 

[3141]

What unwanted consequences? What a lynx does looks s bit like this:

• Regulates deer populations: Hunts weak and sick animals, keeping herds healthy.
• Reduces forest damage: Changes deer grazing habits, protecting young tree shoots.
• Promotes climate-resilient forests: Allows rare tree species like silver firs to grow.
• Restores natural food webs: Fills an ecological gap left by historic predator eradication.
• Boosts overall biodiversity: Strengthens the health and variety of the entire woodland ecosystem.

I think only the first of those is something lynx might do. The rest appear to be the hoped-for consequences of there being fewer deer.

I don't know how long it would take, if lynx were re-introduced, for their numbers to reach a level that would have a noticeable impact on the deer population. Decades, I imagine. Let's suppose they have been re-introduced and that point has been reached: the deer population has been "regulated" and the rare tree species have become commonplace. The lynx start to notice a shortage of the deer dinners that used to be so plentiful. But there are lots of sheep out in the fields.

Incidentally, it is also an argument that farmers repeatedly raise when the subject of releasing native animal species into the wild comes up. Given that it is common practice to leave sheep graze over large, remote territories with minimal daily human supervision and to accept a mortality rate of around 5% to 7% (viral deseases, birthing complications in lambs, accidents or fatal falls in steep terrain, extreme weather exposure, and untreated parasite infestations, hoof problems), I'm not inclined to agree with it.

If the mortality rate increases from 5 - 7% to 9 - 11% as the lynx adapt to the lower availability of deer, that would have a significant impact on the economics of sheep farming.

I don't think actual predation on people will be an issue though.

Let's hope that the lynx would bear that in mind, if they are re-introduced.

As I said in post #8, the Britain into which they might be re-introduced is utterly different from the one in which they were exterminated centuries ago. It's not simply a matter of "As I was saying before I was interrupted..." Britain is now one of the most densely populated (by humans) in the world. What concerns me most is that the proponents of bringing back species that used to live here seem so enthusiastic that they don't want to devote much attention to the possible drawbacks and they expand the range of possible benefits. Does the motivation include the expiation of guilt over what happened in the past?

 

[Sorcerer]

Let's hope that the lynx would bear that in mind, if they are re-introduced.

The animal would learn very quickly to avoid humans if it wants to survive. Even with a lot of territory overlap, tigers in India have learned to avoid humans despite being considerably larger because they have learned to associate them with danger (with the exception of the Sundarbans), so I am sure a lynx population in dense human Britain would learn to avoid us as well. Farmers protecting their livestock would be the first ones to teach them that lesson. It's easy to forget just how scary we are to most animals.

 

[bahnause]

I think only the first of those is something lynx might do. The rest appear to be the hoped-for consequences of there being fewer deer.

Hoped-for? TThese are the actual, real-world consequences of reintroducing lynx into the wild in Central Europe.

If the mortality rate increases from 5 - 7% to 9 - 11% as the lynx adapt to the lower availability of deer, that would have a significant impact on the economics of sheep farming.

That's a pretty different argument from the original one I was referring to, and I'm wondering where these figures on the presumed increase come from.

 

[Brightonboy]

Let's suppose they have been re-introduced and that point has been reached: the deer population has been "regulated" and the rare tree species have become commonplace. The lynx start to notice a shortage of the deer dinners that used to be so plentiful. But there are lots of sheep out in the fields.

If the mortality rate increases from 5 - 7% to 9 - 11% as the lynx adapt to the lower availability of deer, that would have a significant impact on the economics of sheep farming.

Would the Lynx even bother with the large, athletic free-roaming deer when the much smaller, less athletic and more docile (and potentially field-bound) sheep are already more plentiful?

 

[bahnause]

Would the Lynx even bother with the large, athletic free-roaming deer when the much smaller, less athletic and more docile (and potentially field-bound) sheep are already more plentiful?

Domestic livestock is not their primary or preferred food source.

 

[JohnofWessex]

One interesting issues that happens with the reintroduction of predators is that the prey species become much more cautions

This report is interesting

A rewilding triumph: wolves help to reverse Yellowstone degradation

Twenty-five years ago, the national park attempted to reintroduce wolves – now scientists are celebrating it as one of the greatest rewilding stories ever

www.theguardian.com

The need for restoration was glaring. In the 70 years of the wolves’ absence, the entire Yellowstone ecosystem had fallen out of balance. Coyotes ran rampant, and the elk population exploded, overgrazing willows and aspens. Without those trees, songbirds began to decline, beavers could no longer build their dams and riverbanks started to erode. Without beaver dams and the shade from trees and other plants, water temperatures were too high for cold-water fish.

Like a lot of these things it doesnt work out in quite the way you might expect

 

[Acathater]

Would the Lynx even bother with the large, athletic free-roaming deer when the much smaller, less athletic and more docile (and potentially field-bound) sheep are already more plentiful?

European lynx are more specialists in eating hares than deer or sheep
Reintroduction might have a small effect on the small solitary deer species e.g. through occasional predation on young roe deer. However they're unlikely to affect the larger herding species

 

[3141]

Hoped-for? TThese are the actual, real-world consequences of reintroducing lynx into the wild in Central Europe.

That's a pretty different argument from the original one I was referring to, and I'm wondering where these figures on the presumed increase come from.

Since lynx haven't been re-introduced into Britain, the results that you listed are at present hoped for.

I'm happy to answer that. I made an estimate, which I think was reasonable, of the additional percentage of flocks that might be lost to lynx when they've done in the surplus deer. The reality might of course be different, depending on what's available in each locality.

 

[bahnause]

Since lynx haven't been re-introduced into Britain, the results that you listed are at present hoped for.

I'm happy to answer that. I made an estimate, which I think was reasonable, of the additional percentage of flocks that might be lost to lynx when they've done in the surplus deer. The reality might of course be different, depending on what's available in each locality.

Of course you can argue, that the introduction ion the UK would have different consequences to the introduction in the rest of Europe. But what is the reasoning for this assumption?

The same goes for the number of sheep killed by lynx. European average is 0.40 sheep per lynx and year, the percentage of a region's total sheep flock killed by lynx annually ranges from less than 0.05% to about 0.6%. Why wouldit be so much higher in the UK?

 

[Bald Rick]

The same goes for the number of sheep killed by lynx. European average is 0.40 sheep per lynx and year, the percentage of a region's total sheep flock killed by lynx annually ranges from less than 0.05% to about 0.6%. Why wouldit be so much higher in the UK?

I have no view one way or the other, but surely the stat should be levellised according to the prevalence of sheep in the area.

 

[3141]

Of course you can argue, that the introduction ion the UK would have different consequences to the introduction in the rest of Europe. But what is the reasoning for this assumption?

The same goes for the number of sheep killed by lynx. European average is 0.40 sheep per lynx and year, the percentage of a region's total sheep flock killed by lynx annually ranges from less than 0.05% to about 0.6%. Why wouldit be so much higher in the UK?

The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, and one of the least forested countries in Europe. Those facts ought to lead the proponents of re-introducing lynx to ask whether the outcomes of re-introducing them here might be different from what has happened elsewhere. It is possible that a re-examination of the situation might justify a conclusion that despite the different environment the outcomes would be similar. Or, possibly, their enthusiasm for re-introduction would lead them to pass over questions whose answers they might find unwelcome.

I didn't have statistics about the percentage of European sheep killed by lynx, so perhaps my estimate is exaggerated. In Britain we have one of highest sheep populations in Europe, in a country whose land area is relatively small. That might mean that the overall percentage of flocks killed by lynx would be small. The actual figure would probably vary widely, according to the amount of woodland in an area providing shelter for the deer remaining after they'd been regulated, and the number of sheep available as an alternative.

If there has been a large increase in the numbers of deer in the past thirty years, it clearly isn't the result of the eradication of lynx centuries earlier. Maybe it's a consequence of the banning of hunting with hounds. As someone has already suggested, shooting the deer would be an alternative way of reducing their numbers, and would provide another source of meat.

I imagine that it will be a few more years before lynx are re-introduced, if at all, and I certainly won't be around by the time the results of that start to become apparent. It is well known that the arrival of a new species can have undesirable consequences, and I think we should be very cautious even when it's a case of re-introduction, into an environment that is now so completely different.

 

[GusB]

The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and one of the least forested countries in Europe.

You keep saying this, but that population isn't evenly distributed and there vast areas of the country where there is very little human settlement. I also haven't noticed a particular lack of forested areas, either. We need to be looking seriously at reforesting and there are some efforts to bring back native tree species; unfortunately the natural process is hampered by overgrazing by deer, so anything that can keep the numbers down will assist nature in taking its course.

 

[bahnause]

The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, and one of the least forested countries in Europe. Those facts ought to lead the proponents of re-introducing lynx to ask whether the outcomes of re-introducing them here might be different from what has happened elsewhere. It is possible that a re-examination of the situation might justify a conclusion that despite the different environment the outcomes would be similar. Or, possibly, their enthusiasm for re-introduction would lead them to pass over questions whose answers they might find unwelcome.

As you may have noticed, my focus is more on why such critical views continue to carry so much weight, rather than looking at the actual figures. I am familiar with these figures, as we have already had a similar reintroduction programme locally. Lynx are now back in various regions with different characteristics (settlement patterns, livestock farming, forests, etc.). The figures and predictions are therefore publicly available and well-known, and paint a clear picture. Ecological readiness is no longer the bottleneck; social readiness is. Nobody has ever thought of releasing a few lynx and then just seeing what happens. Yet this seems to be a widely held assumption.

There is also an excellent interview with Derek Gow on this subject:
Britain's Lost Species: Should We Resurrect Our Extinct Wildlife? (Derek Gow)

Sometimes you simply have no other choice. Wolves and bears are (at last) back in their natural habitat here on the continent; they’ve remigrated here without "permission".

 

[3141]

You keep saying this, but that population isn't evenly distributed and there vast areas of the country where there is very little human settlement. I also haven't noticed a particular lack of forested areas, either. We need to be looking seriously at reforesting and there are some efforts to bring back native tree species; unfortunately the natural process is hampered by overgrazing by deer, so anything that can keep the numbers down will assist nature in taking its course.

I keep referring to the population density because I think it's a very important factor.

In the UK, according to figures I've recently researched, the total forest cover is 13%. That is made up of Scotland ~19%, Wales at ~15%, England at ~10%, and Northern Ireland at ~8–9%. The European Union average is 38% of the total land area covered by woodland. So although you may not have noticed a particular lack of forested areas, it does exist compared to the EU countries.

I agree that re-introducing lynx into parts of Wales or Scotland might avoid conflict with humans, though not necessarily with sheep, but the amount of forest cover which they might prefer is still relatively low.

 

[GusB]

I keep referring to the population density because I think it's a very important factor.

Why? If it was being suggested that lynx should be re-introduced to places such as Hampstead Heath then I think you'd probably a valid point, but nobody is going to release such a species into a densely populated area. If you bring lynx back to a part of the country that has little population, they're likely to have very little contact with humans, if at all.

In the UK, according to figures I've recently researched, the total forest cover is 13%. That is made up of Scotland ~19%, Wales at ~15%, England at ~10%, and Northern Ireland at ~8–9%. The European Union average is 38% of the total land area covered by woodland. So although you may not have noticed a particular lack of forested areas, it does exist compared to the EU countries.

Where are you getting your figures from? I'd like to see your sources, please. 13% might seem like a very low number, but when you consider the total area of the UK, it's not really that small.

I agree that re-introducing lynx into parts of Wales or Scotland might avoid conflict with humans, though not necessarily with sheep, but the amount of forest cover which they might prefer is still relatively low.

If you're so worried about sheep, let's put in place a compensation scheme for farmers who may well lose the odd one every now and again.

While we're at it, shall we also ban dogs?

Sheep worrying by dogs – The ongoing threat to animal welfare and farmer livelihoods

Sheep worrying by dogs – The ongoing threat to animal welfare and farmer livelihoods - NSA News

nationalsheep.org.uk

Farming respondents to the survey on average reported four sheep deaths per year due to sheep worrying by dogs, this is an increase from previous years but still does not take into account additional losses from lamb deaths when miscarried by ewes due to stress from attacks. As well as sheep deaths, extreme injuries will often cause long term pain and suffering for animals and financial loss to farmers with increased vet bills and a reduced number of stock available to sell.

 

[Cross City]

Whilst cryptzoology is a fascinating subject, the case against the existence of big cats in the UK is similar to the case against UFOs, ghosts and other such phenomena. Why is it that pretty much everyone carries a camera with them at all times in their phone, yet there never been any conclusive photographic or video evidence of their existence? If all you have is anecdotal evidence, tall stories, and blurry photographs then it's safe to say that big cats don't exist in the UK.

is the correct answer!

You're both vastly underestimating how difficult it is to photograph something that's at distance, moving, and usually in low light.

You're also overestimating how good phone cameras are, even flagship phone's cameras would struggle with the above. You'd need a DSLR and a good technique to go with it to get a decent picture of a moving animal that's a few hundred yards away.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 06:40 ==

As for the actual subject matter. Big cats are found here in the UK from time to time, indeed this wiki page has a confirmed captures and sightings section.

British big cats - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm willing to believe that there are a few extant individuals roaming around, maybe even the odd family group, it hardly seems like a big conspiracy.

 

[Noddy]

And the snag - they are big enough to eat small children who wander into the wrong areas away from their parents. Children just look like potential food ............

What an utterly ludicrous statement.

 

[martin butler]

Let's be realistic about this, any re-introduction of lynx, or any other predator species' will be tightly controlled and in areas where human interaction can be managed,

It's very unlikely it will be anywhere near a sizable area of human habitation.
Lynx are very shy animals and elusive so the only people who are likely to photograph one, will be someone who knows the area and knows the animals well enough to track one, and set up remote cameras, the same can be said for any wildlife, they unless used to humans tend to avoid us.

Take the urban fox, at one time you rarely saw a fox, but since they worked out that we are a readily available provider of food via our bins, they have learnt we are not a threat to them, and in my area, it's certainly not unusual to be taking an early morning walk in the summer, to see a fox, calmly walking down the other side of the road to you, ignoring you and your dog,

 

[Sorcerer]

You're both vastly underestimating how difficult it is to photograph something that's at distance, moving, and usually in low light.

You're also overestimating how good phone cameras are, even flagship phone's cameras would struggle with the above. You'd need a DSLR and a good technique to go with it to get a decent picture of a moving animal that's a few hundred yards away.

At the same time, even with photographs, humans aren't very good at estimations, especially without anything to give scale. This is historically how many cryptids have been sighted such as Mothman which was very likely to be just a large owl that was overestimated in size under the cover of darkness and quick movement, and how many some people claim to have sighted a Megalodon shark despite them being extinct for over two million years. I have no trouble believing a domestic black cat under the right conditions could be mistaken for a black leopard.

As for the actual subject matter. Big cats are found here in the UK from time to time, indeed this wiki page has a confirmed captures and sightings section.

British big cats - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm willing to believe that there are a few extant individuals roaming around, maybe even the odd family group, it hardly seems like a big conspiracy.

In the truest sense of the term, none of the animals confirmed are "big cats" which refers specifically to the Panthera clade (tigers, lions, jaguars, leopards, snow leopards). Of these five, only the leopard has any realistic chance of having some establishment in the UK, and even then it's quite unlikely.

 

[Cross City]

I do have my own story actually...

Maybe 4 years ago I was driving to work at 4am through the pitch black country lanes of rural north Worcestershire between Bromsgrove and Redditch when suddenly as I turn a bend my headlights catch eyeshine of an animal in the middle of the road maybe 30-40 meters away.

I slow down of course, but I quickly stop as I realise the eyes are maybe 3 feet off the ground and attached to a large black animal facing directly at me.

Sat there in amazement trying to work out WTF I was looking at it begins plodding towards me.

Before I had time to come up with an exit strategy or call my wife to tell her I love her and that I might not be coming home it becomes apparent that this beast is a massive great black labrador. He stops maybe 6 feet in front of the car gives me a quick look and then plods off into the front garden of an adjacent house.

I quickly emptied out my underwear and carried onto work actually pretty shaken up

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I do have my own story actually...

Maybe 4 years ago I was driving to work at 4am through the pitch black country lanes of rural north Worcestershire between Bromsgrove and Redditch when suddenly as I turn a bend my headlights catch eyeshine of an animal in the middle of the road maybe 30-40 meters away.

I slow down of course, but I quickly stop as I realise the eyes are maybe 3 feet off the ground and attached to a large black animal facing directly at me.

Sat there in amazement trying to work out WTF I was looking at it begins plodding towards me.

Before I had time to come up with an exit strategy or call my wife to tell her I love her and that I might not be coming home it becomes apparent that this beast is a massive great black labrador. He stops maybe 6 feet in front of the car gives me a quick look and then plods off into the front garden of an adjacent house.

I quickly empty out my underwear and carry onto work actually pretty shaken up

Are you sure it wasn't Black Shuck?

 

[bahnause]

It's very unlikely it will be anywhere near a sizable area of human habitation.
Lynx are very shy animals and elusive so the only people who are likely to photograph one, will be someone who knows the area and knows the animals well enough to track one, and set up remote cameras, the same can be said for any wildlife, they unless used to humans tend to avoid us.

Lynxes are incredibly shy. I’ve been trying for 8 years now to get one of the ones roaming around the ‘neighbourhood’ in front of my lens, so far without any success. I’ve seen all sorts of other animals – roe deer, wild boar, wolves(!), hares – but not a single lynx. You can see this clearly from the tracking data too. Despite a healthy population, sightings recorded in the tracking data are very rare. Quite unlike wolves, for example.

 

[3141]

Why? If it was being suggested that lynx should be re-introduced to places such as Hampstead Heath then I think you'd probably a valid point, but nobody is going to release such a species into a densely populated area. If you bring lynx back to a part of the country that has little population, they're likely to have very little contact with humans, if at all.


Where are you getting your figures from? I'd like to see your sources, please. 13% might seem like a very low number, but when you consider the total area of the UK, it's not really that small.


If you're so worried about sheep, let's put in place a compensation scheme for farmers who may well lose the odd one every now and again.

While we're at it, shall we also ban dogs?

Sheep worrying by dogs – The ongoing threat to animal welfare and farmer livelihoods

Sheep worrying by dogs – The ongoing threat to animal welfare and farmer livelihoods - NSA News

nationalsheep.org.uk

Hampstead Heath or Highlands? Actually I don't think anyone has specified what areas they think would be suitable for the release of lynx. I think they'd probably like to see some in England, and not just the remotest parts of Scotland. Exmoor perhaps. Plenty of deer there, also sheep and visiting tourists. Or some areas in the Midlands, such as the National Forest. That area isn't densely populated, but it has more than just a "little population".

Sources: I put something like "compare forested area in European countries" into Google, and several sites come up as well as the AI answer. One site is indexMundi. Different sites come up depending what search words you put in.

Compensation scheme: If it was just for "the odd one now and again", maybe. But you don't know how many dead sheep might qualify. Only if the farmer can prove the culprit was a lynx?

Ban dogs: There used to be a dog licence. It gradually fell out of use until eventually abolished. Your suggestion has its attractions, but off topic.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I think only the first of those is something lynx might do. The rest appear to be the hoped-for consequences of there being fewer deer.

Not just fewer deer; one of the impacts of large predators is that they kill competing mesopredators, reducing the pressure on smaller prey species. The classic example is lynx predation of foxes. There's also the 'landscape of fear' consideration, whereby deer - or other prey species - under pressure from predation change their behaviour.

And yes, it's entirely true that most of the benefits of lynx are actually benefits of fewer deer. A lot of them could be achieved by shooting the deer - but that would require employing a small army of professional hunters at considerable cost. The full ecosystem benefits, including behavioural change, would require predators.

Hampstead Heath or Highlands? Actually I don't think anyone has specified what areas they think would be suitable for the release of lynx. I think they'd probably like to see some in England, and not just the remotest parts of Scotland. Exmoor perhaps. Plenty of deer there, also sheep and visiting tourists. Or some areas in the Midlands, such as the National Forest. That area isn't densely populated, but it has more than just a "little population".

There is actually a reasonable body of research on this point. The Highlands north of the Central Belt can likely support 250-400 lynx, depending on the assumptions made. The Southern Uplands into the Cheviot Hills can support 40-60 lynx, with the same caveats. Nowhere else in the UK has a sufficiently large wooded area, with sufficiently few people or roads, for lynx to establish a population.

In fact, the dislike of lynx for human impact is strong enough that some studies argue even the Highlands might be divided into three or four populations, divided by the A9 and A82 corridors.

So far as lynx predation of sheep goes, the only country to see this to any significant extent is Norway, where normal sheep husbandry includes grazing them in forests. This isn't the practice in the UK, so is less likely to be a major problem. It shouldn't be dismissed, of course, and understanding the likely impact is important for lynx release to be remotely credible.