Caledonian Sleeper

[styles]

I am sure the Sleeper doesn't make money, but it must be haemorraging delay replay refunds at this rate!

With the exception of open access operators, I don't think any GB rail operator makes money, and it's even a bit debatable on the OAO front with how infrastructure is paid for

But yeah, CS are not up the profitability chart.

I actually think though that this is another reason they should reintroduce shared cabins and couchettes. While their current compartment pricing is high, I feel they'd still sell out and generate more revenue per metre squared with this approach.

 

[paninaro]

For Corrour Id recommend early morning flight to Edinburgh, Ember bus at 10.45 to Bridge of Orchy. Lunch at the hotel or budget option picnic bench next to fabulous bridge. 200 metre walk up hill, 14.49 train to Corrour.

That's practically a whole day of walking wasted

 

[najaB]

I actually think though that this is another reason they should reintroduce shared cabins and couchettes. While their current compartment pricing is high, I feel they'd still sell out and generate more revenue per metre squared with this approach.

I'm not 100% sure about shared cabins, but couchettes were definitely a missed opportunity.

 

[styles]

I'm not 100% sure about shared cabins, but couchettes were definitely a missed opportunity.

I was chatting about it to a friend yesterday.

Really, I don't see why it would be any different to a youth hostel.

Now ok most hostel rooms are shared with more than 2 people, but I think there's be a market for it. If you had couchettes you'd get a higher potential occupancy and I actually think there's enough people in the UK wanting to travel cheaply that they'd get high booking rates.

 

[The exile]

I'm not 100% sure about shared cabins, but couchettes were definitely a missed opportunity.

Not everyone will be - but in denying them to solo travellers who would be prepared to share they are making things difficult for a not insignificant number of travellers. OK if someone who was prepared to share ends up not having to, then the operator has list out - but if you charged (say) 55 or 60% of the berth fee for a solo booking then that would balance out over time.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Really, I don't see why it would be any different to a youth hostel.

Digressing slightly, but my first holiday without my parents was in Scotland with my (female) then best friend in 1988. We stayed a night at the youth hostel at Garramore by Morar and we were stunned to be given a double room. It'd never crossed our minds they had anything but bunks in dormitories.....

Still plenty of 37 action on the west highland that week..

 

[najaB]

I was chatting about it to a friend yesterday.

Really, I don't see why it would be any different to a youth hostel.

Now ok most hostel rooms are shared with more than 2 people, but I think there's be a market for it. If you had couchettes you'd get a higher potential occupancy and I actually think there's enough people in the UK wanting to travel cheaply that they'd get high booking rates.

I suspect that in this day and age shared cabin fares would mostly serve to encourage people to upgrade to solo. I don't know about others but I feel much more comfortable in a shared six or eight-bed hostel room (and still often doo) than I would sharing with just one stranger.

 

[styles]

Not everyone will be - but in denying them to solo travellers who would be prepared to share they are making things difficult for a not insignificant number of travellers. OK if someone who was prepared to share ends up not having to, then the operator has list out - but if you charged (say) 55 or 60% of the berth fee for a solo booking then that would balance out over time.

Even better than that. They currently charge about £150 for single occupancy (it varies) and about an extra £60 for double occupancy.

So really they're losing revenue on the single occupancies from people who are travelling solo.

If it's let's say £135 for a single occupancy between London and Edinburgh in a Classic room, and £195 for twin occupancy, then some of the rooms are £60 down to start with. If you put say 4 couchettes in instead (I know obviously there are spare constraints so this is a bit of an estimate!), they could have 4 beds for say £80 each and people would very likely pay it, and you'd be £125-£185 better off per compartment.

Obviously there's some assumptions in here about room costs but I do think they'd actually be better off financially if they had say 4-bed couchettes, and it would serve the travelling public better, and ultimately also reduce carbon emissions.

I'm not against them having some pricey rooms for those who want them, but I think they'd be better served by reintroducing shared rooms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 16:08 ==

I suspect that in this day and age shared cabin fares would mostly serve to encourage people to upgrade to solo. I don't know about others but I feel much more comfortable in a shared six or eight-bed hostel room (and still often doo) than I would sharing with just one stranger.

Yeah I don't think two-berths would be as popular really. But you can get 4-berth couchettes into that space (maybe a bit more) and that would feel quite secure for a lot of travellers.

 

[MoominAndChips]

I know YouTubers love a good whinge, it drives engagement. But the sheer number of reviews I've seen where something's gone wrong (especially when they've given the Sleeper another chance after a bad experience), compared to those where it hasn't, makes me very wary of spending the kind of money being asked for. You can forgive a lot when it's "cheap and cheerful", but not when it's supposed to be a luxury experience.

 

[Sealink]

I saw a video of some trains in China where the seats are basically identical to airline business class seats, wish they'd done something like that.

The current seated sleeper seats are awful after a couple of hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 17:35 ==

I suspect that in this day and age shared cabin fares would mostly serve to encourage people to upgrade to solo. I don't know about others but I feel much more comfortable in a shared six or eight-bed hostel room (and still often doo) than I would sharing with just one stranger.

My issue would be having to use the top berth , oh and if they snored. Or if I snored.

But the prices for a single traveller to use the Caledonian Sleeper are prohibitive to me.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I know YouTubers love a good whinge, it drives engagement. But the sheer number of reviews I've seen where something's gone wrong (especially when they've given the Sleeper another chance after a bad experience), compared to those where it hasn't, makes me very wary of spending the kind of money being asked for.

As a frequent user of the sleeper, I have never been seriiusly delayed. There have been issues with the standard of service - notably being refused access to the lounge at Inverness on several occasions because it was full, and one (some years ago now) when my wife, on crutches, was told she could not sit in the seats in the lounge car but would have to use the bar stools (almost chest high for someone of her stature) but touch wood we've never had a substantial delay.
Our last run, earlier this month, arrived at Euston nearly an hour early.

 

[marshlinker]

I was chatting about it to a friend yesterday.

Really, I don't see why it would be any different to a youth hostel.

Now ok most hostel rooms are shared with more than 2 people, but I think there's be a market for it. If you had couchettes you'd get a higher potential occupancy and I actually think there's enough people in the UK wanting to travel cheaply that they'd get high booking rates.

Hostel type accomodation is in serious decline except for certain niche markets and locations. look at how many YHA and SYHA establishments have closed in the last 10 years.
A large part of their market has been captured by the low cost hotels. The product that CS offer is more akin to a Premier Inn.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I know YouTubers love a good whinge, it drives engagement. But the sheer number of reviews I've seen where something's gone wrong (especially when they've given the Sleeper another chance after a bad experience), compared to those where it hasn't, makes me very wary of spending the kind of money being asked for. You can forgive a lot when it's "cheap and cheerful", but not when it's supposed to be a luxury experience.

Not too many people would be queueing up to watch "I had a surprisingly pleasant journey last night, and nothing of note happened"

 

[Bald Rick]

I actually think though that this is another reason they should reintroduce shared cabins and couchettes. While their current compar

I'm not 100% sure about shared cabins, but couchettes were definitely a missed opportunity.

There have been other threads, and duscussion in this one, about the subject of shared occupancy, couchettes, and airline ‘business class’ style seats.

For shared occupancy, a surprisingly high percentage of cabins are already shared occupancy, by people travelling together. Therefore the market being missed is those solo travellers who don’t already use the sleeper, but would do so if it was a bit cheaper, and they didn’t mind sharing with a stranger. All the research done showed this was a very small market, with potential risk both in revenue and and reputation terms.

As for couchettes and business class beds. Due to the natrue of UK loading gauge you can’t go triple deck, and that means that a coach of couchettes would have arond 28 couchettes, compared to 20 sleepers. That means you can only charge (at most) 25% less if you want more revenue. Given that the sleepers routinely sell out, I don’t see the market for multi sharing for that price. Business class beds, well you‘d get in each coach no more than beds today. And there’s the safety issues well documented elsewhere.

 

[najaB]

Due to the natrue of UK loading gauge you can’t go triple deck, and that means that a coach of couchettes would have arond 28 couchettes, compared to 20 sleepers. That means you can only charge (at most) 25% less if you want more revenue.

I think that might be a little pessimistic. I had a look at some capsule hotels and the units tend to be around 1.25m high by 1.0m wide. You should be able get something like 34 to 36 units in a standard carriage, especially if the couchettes only ran on the Lowland Sleeper since the loading gauge is greater than on some of the Highland's route so the shoulders of the carriages could be a little wider.

 

[alistairlees]

People keep rehashing the same old ideas. To be honest, I think the mix of accommodation is pretty good - double beds routinely sell out a long way ahead, club sells well and classic does too. And trains sell out a long way in advance for popular nights which are essentially Thursdays to Sundays now, plus all the time at half term and on bank holiday and summer weeks. Inverness and Edinburgh portions sell strongly all year round, fort William obviously all summer and more, but Glasgow is not as busy as it was. And the season now runs from Easter to October. Added to that you can buy accessible rooms and seats on every train without having to jump through hoops.

A problem with shared rooms was that people in the know would book them to an obscure station - such as speak bridge - in the knowledge that there was a vanishingly small chance of another person wanting to do exactly the same journey, then carry on to fort William. As a result they would get a solo for the price of a shared room. I don’t think the sharing market is what it was and not are the commercials for it. It also requires a lot more management and has its own modern challenges, such as how many genders should be offered.

Finally it’s often forgotten that, with the mark 3 sleepers, first class was solo by definition. Now it’s not. So, even though some space has been lost due to adding showers / WCs in the club rooms, overall bed count is pretty much still the same.

Oh, and the accessible rooms are a huge step above what was available before.

It’s always possible to criticise, but I think the product mix is pretty close to ideal now. And this is evidenced by it selling out many nights of the year, in a way which the mark 3s never did.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t think the sharing market is what it was and not are the commercials for it.

Agreed. I’m struggling to think of anyone I know who would choose to travel in a shared cabin with a stranger. That includes my adult kids and their friends, some of whom are happily travelling around the world. Society has moved on.

It’s always possible to criticise, but I think the product mix is pretty close to ideal now. And this is evidenced by it selling out many nights of the year, in a way which the mark 3s never did.

I agree. TS / CS really did their research. The fact that for the northbound Lowlander (Glasgow / Edinburgh) this week there is only one room left (at £360, to Glasgow tomorrow), and that’s it till Sunday, tells you that CS are simply not going to be aiming for lower yield customers. If anything, I would expect prices to rise, as the market can clearly bear it.

 

[NCT]

Very broadly, demand is lower in winter, especially to the Highlands.

Thursdays / Fridays usually sell out northbound, and Sundays Southbound.

But it can vary. For example northbound on the Aberdeen portion, there are a grand total of 8 rooms left available for the rest of this month, and around 75% sold for October already.

The prices seem expensive, but a high proportion of those travelling are two travelling together, where the price is effectively halved. And for those travelling alone, most railcards that can be used when travellign alone are accepted for the rooms and seats.

Thanks.

On the odd occasions I travelled CS I always felt the train was well used. I didn't know it was this well used.

The prices are high for solo occupancy (certainly a lot higher than back in 2012-2014), but then the sleeper is a lot more civilised than getting a 6am flight out of Heathrow or Gatwick, and you only need a small % of the overall travel market with that willingness to pay to fill a train, and evidently that % exists.

Still slight shame the sleeper doesn't quite wash its face financially. Not too surprising I suppose as a sleeper only gets one set of passengers every 24 hours (a Pendolino probably does 3?), and each sleeper car carries 20 odd people rather than the 50-80 a Pendolino carriage carries.

 

[Bald Rick]

Still slight shame the sleeper doesn't quite wash its face financially. Not too surprising I suppose as a sleeper only gets one set of passengers every 24 hours (a Pendolino probably does 3?), and each sleeper car carries 20 odd people rather than the 50-80 a Pendolino carriage carries.

Exactly this but more extreme.

Each Sleeper coach will, ordinarily do 6 trips a week. A Pendolino or Azuma will average around 20-25 a week, including some long trips (Anglo-Scot) and some short trips (London - W Mids or Lincoln / York), as well as middle distance.

Then each sleeper needs much more servicing; beds to strip and remake, many more toilets to empty, water to tank, bathrooms to clean, freebies to dispense, etc. And onboard the sleepers have a lot more customer hosts, all on permanent nights.

The cost base is substantial.

 

[NCT]

Exactly this but more extreme.

Each Sleeper coach will, ordinarily do 6 trips a week. A Pendolino or Azuma will average around 20-25 a week, including some long trips (Anglo-Scot) and some short trips (London - W Mids or Lincoln / York), as well as middle distance.

Then each sleeper needs much more servicing; beds to strip and remake, many more toilets to empty, water to tank, bathrooms to clean, freebies to dispense, etc. And onboard the sleepers have a lot more customer hosts, all on permanent nights.

The cost base is substantial.

Does the Lounge Car cover its 'rent' (the equivalent of a restaurant's rent, in this case the carriage lease, track access and all the paraphernalia)?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that might be a little pessimistic. I had a look at some capsule hotels and the units tend to be around 1.25m high by 1.0m wide. You should be able get something like 34 to 36 units in a standard carriage,

I can’t quite understandwhat you’re saying - do you mean double stacked but 17-18 ‘rows’ per 22 metre coach?

That doesn’t seem to leave enough space for all that is required for gangway connection, vestibules, toilets, external doors. And then how do you get in the bottom ‘bunk’ if there’s no gap between the beds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 21:45 ==

Does the Lounge Car cover its 'rent' (the equivalent of a restaurant's rent, in this case the carriage lease, track access and all the paraphernalia)?

That’s beyond my knowledge, but it is certainly a key selling point for the whole experience for many travellers. Whenever I’ve used it recently it has been doing a roaring trade.

 

[najaB]

I can’t quite understand what you’re saying - do you mean double stacked but 17-18 ‘rows’ per 22 metre coach?

Yes, double-stacked. But not 22m coaches, 25 or 26m like the Class 805.

 

[driverd]

So I've been in a variety of club cabins and an accessibility double, with varying degrees of gurgling and or foam bubbling/ backing up into the sink from the tank beneath.

Is this a commonly experienced issue amongst the group? I think ove had it more often than. Ot over about 6 journies.
I would wonder if the same occurrs with the showers on board.

I would say, it wasn't constant / continuous and nor could I relate it to main toilet activity either...

I've never noticed anything other than an occasional gurgling noise coming from the sinks (usually within a few mins of using the sink). I use the sleeper a few times a year so would consider myself a reasonably experienced user.

 

[NCT]

Yes, double-stacked. But not 22m coaches, 25 or 26m like the Class 805.

New Nightjet capsule style?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, double-stacked. But not 22m coaches, 25 or 26m like the Class 805.

The are 22 for a reason.

 

[NCT]

The are 22 for a reason.

Because a longer carriage would need to be narrower to fit the loading gauge?

 

[driverd]

Obviously there's some assumptions in here about room costs but I do think they'd actually be better off financially if they had say 4-bed couchettes, and it would serve the travelling public better, and ultimately also reduce carbon emissions.

I'm not against them having some pricey rooms for those who want them, but I think they'd be better served by reintroducing shared rooms.

If we're appealing predominantly to those who would use youth hostels and want budget travel, yes absolutely. But thats not the market for the cabins and indeed, thats who the seats are intended for.

Couchettes would put off a good range of people. My partner wouldn't go anywhere near, and I'd be incredibly hesitant (and I'm quite happy to stay in a youth hostel).

You've got to bare in mind that those who are prepared to pay the (quite high) fees for the berths are more likely to spend a good bit of money in the lounge car, all of which adds to the viability of the sleeper.

I'm not saying couchettes are a bad idea, but when the sleeper is filling most nights a good month out, what is going to be achieved here? If the pricing structure is going to be as you suggested, what happens to the seats (who would use them without a price cut)? I think if I was going to do anything, it'd be strip out the seats and add pods in their place if you can get roughly a like for like number in their place - but again, you'd have to reassess the price structure and even a like for like number would (and should) cost more.

I know YouTubers love a good whinge, it drives engagement. But the sheer number of reviews I've seen where something's gone wrong (especially when they've given the Sleeper another chance after a bad experience), compared to those where it hasn't, makes me very wary of spending the kind of money being asked for. You can forgive a lot when it's "cheap and cheerful", but not when it's supposed to be a luxury experience.

99% of the time I have absolutely no issues. Obviously sometimes sleep comes easier than others, but ultimately you are still on a moving train - so don't go expecting the best night's sleep! Having once paid £500+ as a surprise treat for the double room, I didn't leave feeling like I got poor value for money.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because a longer carriage would need to be narrower to fit the loading gauge?

Yup.

 

[befated]

What I find so peculiar is that couchettes are very much the norm in mainland Europe - on European Sleeper it’s fair to say most passengers are travelling in couchettes, just based on the number of carriages of each type in the formations (even if some people book solo occupancy of them). And on the SNCF domestic sleepers (Intercites de Nuit) there are no sleeping cars, only 4/6 berth couchettes and seats. Is there some major cultural difference with the UK market? I understand about the loading gauge but it still surprises me that even a 4 berth couchette comes out as not worthwhile.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Because a longer carriage would need to be narrower to fit the loading gauge?

Because that is the maximum coach lenght for a 16 carriage train.