Birmingham New Street the worst UK station?

[Bald Rick]

A simpler solution would be to use the toilets in Wetherspoon at New Street station.

To be fair, that is what Wetherspoons anywhere is best for.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I shall never understand why some people find it difficult to navigate since the rebuild, to me it is quite simple; I use it maybe 3-4 times a year and used a map the first time (and not since). But I can understand that some people do find it diffiuclt to navigate, so I suggest using a map to help. In my opinion it is certainly less confusing than the Kings Cross / St Pancras complex, or the Paddington complex, or Moorgate, or Stratford.

It is a bit of a damming admission don't you think, that you, an experienced railwayman, required a map for the first visit after the rebuild? Might it suggest that there is an issue for the general publc as well? The wayfinding is extremely poor - you shouldn't have to bring a map to find your train for goodness sake!

 

[Russel]

Then Notwork Fail should stop wasting money on rubbish that does not need money spending on.

Go on then, enlighten us, what should they stop spending money on?

 

[Falcon1200]

Anyhow, I will see what NR says when they answer my complaint. Pass the buck I fear to some extent.

What will the basis of that complaint be? That signage to the toilets within the barriers is poor, which is a fair point (although whenever I use those toilets plenty of other people are doing so too) or that NR has failed to provide toilets outside the barriers, ie for anyone to use - Surely providing that facility is more the responsibility of Birmingham City Council than the rail industry?

 

[Bald Rick]

It is a bit of a damming admission don't you think, that you, an experienced railwayman, required a map for the first visit after the rebuild? Might it suggest that there is an issue for the general publc as well? The wayfinding is extremely poor - you shouldn't have to bring a map to find your train for goodness sake!

I tend to need a map the first time I go to any large facility like that. Same with Luton airport, Heathrow T3 / T5, Gare du Nord, Penn Station, Bull Ring shopping centre, Westfield shopping centres, etc etc.

My point is that if I need help to find my way around somewhere new, I use a map. I reslly dont see a problem with that.

 

[xotGD]

First time I've needed to change trains at Birmingham New Street...

I arrive at Platform 10. My connection leaves from Platform 2. I head up the escalator to the concourse. I head in the direction of Platform 2. I am confronted with an impenetrable glass wall.

Somehow I'm meant to know that if I'd gone up a different escalator I'd have reached a totally different concourse without an impenetrable glass wall.

That's what is wrong with Birmingham New Street.

 

[NCT]

It is a bit of a damming admission don't you think, that you, an experienced railwayman, required a map for the first visit after the rebuild? Might it suggest that there is an issue for the general publc as well? The wayfinding is extremely poor - you shouldn't have to bring a map to find your train for goodness sake!

A map is a fundamental part of wayfinding.

 

[xotGD]

A map is a fundamental part of wayfinding.

We're talking about changing trains, not doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks.

 

[AlterEgo]

A map is a fundamental part of wayfinding.

Major stations and airports are designed to be used without the need for them because everything should be properly signed and in any case intuitive to use. The maps are for a subset of people who are either anxious or who like to see everything in one place; they're handy for finding out that, say, if you come out at X place then there's a Caffè Nero right there. I mean I've certainly used them at airports to figure out where a certain shop or lounge is. But purely to catch or change trains - no, I wouldn't do that and I suspect most people wouldn't.

I don't think any other modern station will be designed with a similar concept to BHM (that is, segregated paid side departure lounges) because passengers are much more familiar with and less anxious about free circulatory space. It is the requirement to end up in the right colour lounge, at a large and perhaps novel station, having already passed a barrier "locking you in a portion of the paid side" all the time in a space where the actual trains are concealed from view - and having never been asked to do it at any of the other 2500 stations.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think any other modern station will be designed with a similar concept to BHM (that is, segregated paid side departure lounges) because passengers are much more familiar with and less anxious about free circulatory space.

London Bridge?

I have to say I found that a bit confusing the first time I encountered it, though nowhere near as bad as my first time at BHM

 

[AlterEgo]

London Bridge?

I have to say I found that a bit confusing the first time I encountered it, though nowhere near as bad as my first time at BHM

London Bridge isn't the same concept - it just has platform specific barrier lines - though I'm interested to hear people who don't like it! I've always thought it was actually the best station refurb of the post 1994 era, with Reading a close second.

 

[NCT]

Major stations and airports are designed to be used without the need for them because everything should be properly signed and in any case intuitive to use. The maps are for a subset of people who are either anxious or who like to see everything in one place; they're handy for finding out that, say, if you come out at X place then there's a Caffè Nero right there. I mean I've certainly used them at airports to figure out where a certain shop or lounge is. But purely to catch or change trains - no, I wouldn't do that and I suspect most people wouldn't.

I don't think any other modern station will be designed with a similar concept to BHM (that is, segregated paid side departure lounges) because passengers are much more familiar with and less anxious about free circulatory space. It is the requirement to end up in the right colour lounge, at a large and perhaps novel station, having already passed a barrier "locking you in a portion of the paid side" all the time in a space where the actual trains are concealed from view - and having never been asked to do it at any of the other 2500 stations.

I think that's too absolutist a view of whether maps should or shouldn't be needed. People respond differently to maps and wayfinding signs, and for some people a map is helpful for putting signs into context. 'I shouldn't need to look at a map' as an entitlement isn't necessarily helpful.

What are the rules about existing and re-entering barriers at New Street anyway? AIUI it's a perfectly legit move for changing trains at stations with split paid areas? Perhaps there's room in improvement in signage and messaging so it's clearer that 'the other set of platforms' are through the barriers, to provide added assurance passengers are not doing something naughty?

Split paid areas are not that unusual. The very parts of St Pancras, and Waterloo / Waterloo East etc. Even at London Bridge, if you arrive at the London end of the Southern platforms you'd find yourself exiting the high-level barriers first before going down to the low-level concourse. The Netherlands also have rebuilt stations with split paid areas, and that's even through choice rather than through necessity.

I do think split paid areas need to be mitigated with very good way-finding and messaging, but I'd not put it on the 'hard no' pile.

 

[py_megapixel]

London Bridge isn't the same concept - it just has platform specific barrier lines - though I'm interested to hear people who don't like it! I've always thought it was actually the best station refurb of the post 1994 era, with Reading a close second.

It doesn't have platform specific barrier lines, it has lots of barrier lines into a common area from which all platforms are accessible. This makes it equivalent to the B-end concourse at BHM.

I don't dislike LBG. I found it confusing the first time I encountered it but I do actually quite like it.

• Firstly it's a much more pleasant atmosphere than the B-end concourse at BHM, which is cramped, cluttered and lacks any natural light.
• Secondly (and relatedly) the lack of clutter and clearer visibility across the whole station concourse - with no walls in odd places, and the single barrier line quite clearly visible - makes it much easier to navigate.
• Thirdly it doesn't have the confusing split concourse that BHM has at the A end.
• Fourthly I find the wayfinding design there much better - in particular I like the big gantries over the barriers which make it really easy to identify where you can get to through the barriers, and also which ones are set for entry and exit. I wonder if these could actually be retrofitted at BHM, I think they would make a positive difference.

There is still room for improvement though. On my first visit I tapped in through the barrier, assuming because there was lots of seating and shops on the paid side, toilets would also be on the paid side. After a few minutes wandering around, I asked a very helpful gateline staff member where the toilets were, and they had to let me out and back in again because there are in fact only toilets on the unpaid side!

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think any other modern station will be designed with a similar concept to BHM (that is, segregated paid side departure lounges) because passengers are much more familiar with and less anxious about free circulatory space. It is the requirement to end up in the right colour lounge, at a large and perhaps novel station, having already passed a barrier "locking you in a portion of the paid side" all the time in a space where the actual trains are concealed from view - and having never been asked to do it at any of the other 2500 stations.

It's very similar concept to what happens at airports.

There are some changes I'd make to the signage at New Street, such as ensuring platform signs aren't visible in such a way that you head towards them and get to the "impenetrable glass wall". But I believe the concourse layout itself is about as good as it can be given the constraints of the site and the intention to retain most of the shopping centre in the most recent rebuild. The platforms are also better than they used to be, although some such as 9A are far too narrow, but again that probably couldn't be dealt with without a much more radical rebuild than what was done.

 

[Skiddaw]

First time I've needed to change trains at Birmingham New Street...

I arrive at Platform 10. My connection leaves from Platform 2. I head up the escalator to the concourse. I head in the direction of Platform 2. I am confronted with an impenetrable glass wall.

Somehow I'm meant to know that if I'd gone up a different escalator I'd have reached a totally different concourse without an impenetrable glass wall.

That's what is wrong with Birmingham New Street.

Yes!!! That's exactly what I meant when I posted on the thread earlier! It's happened to me every time I've had to change trains at Birmingham. I can never get it right.

 

[AlterEgo]

It doesn't have platform specific barrier lines, it has lots of barrier lines into a common area from which all platforms are accessible. This makes it equivalent to the B-end concourse at BHM.

Of course! I'm getting confused with the escalators there.

 

[Djgr]

Yes!!! That's exactly what I meant when I posted on the thread earlier! It's happened to me every time I've had to change trains at Birmingham. I can never get it right.

And never mind the theory, what you describe is a far too common reality.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 11:28 ==

They're still competing for the same people to fill C-suite jobs.

Although entry to this recruitment pool is pretty rigged.

 

[Dr Hoo]

We have heard a lot about 'way finding' and 'clear signage', and some people not relating to maps. However, I still feel that, to put it bluntly, some folk just seem to blunder around, oblivious to signage, and subconsciously 'following the crowd'.
I took this photograph as I arrived at New Street earlier this year. It happens to be on Platform 1a but the other 'a' end platforms seem to be similar:
(The description is that it shows stairs indicated as "Way Out", an international "Exit" pictogram, the phrase "All exits via Blue Lounge" and also a back-lit standard green Emergency Exit pictogram. On the adjacent wall is a large sign with an arrow back along the platform to the 'b' end and the legend "All Passengers Please use B end exit for access to all other platforms via the Red Lounge".)
What is the problem for a normally-sighted passenger here?

 

[blimmo]

We have heard a lot about 'way finding' and 'clear signage', and some people not relating to maps. However, I still feel that, to put it bluntly, some folk just seem to blunder around, oblivious to signage, and subconsciously 'following the crowd'.
I took this photograph as I arrived at New Street earlier this year. It happens to be on Platform 1a but the other 'a' end platforms seem to be similar:
(The description is that it shows stairs indicated as "Way Out", an international "Exit" pictogram, the phrase "All exits via Blue Lounge" and also a back-lit standard green Emergency Exit pictogram. On the adjacent wall is a large sign with an arrow back along the platform to the 'b' end and the legend "All Passengers Please use B end exit for access to all other platforms via the Red Lounge".)
What is the problem for a normally-sighted passenger here?
View attachment 211530

Frankly, that is a terrible sign. What is "all passengers" doing in bold and the largest font? For one it doesn't apply to nearly all passengers! A word along the lines of "transfers" or "connections" needs to be largest.

 

[xotGD]

As you approach the stairs, you'll be looking at the stairs and the people in front of you. Not a sign at right angles to where you are heading.

 

[Djgr]

We have heard a lot about 'way finding' and 'clear signage', and some people not relating to maps. However, I still feel that, to put it bluntly, some folk just seem to blunder around, oblivious to signage, and subconsciously 'following the crowd'.
I took this photograph as I arrived at New Street earlier this year. It happens to be on Platform 1a but the other 'a' end platforms seem to be similar:
(The description is that it shows stairs indicated as "Way Out", an international "Exit" pictogram, the phrase "All exits via Blue Lounge" and also a back-lit standard green Emergency Exit pictogram. On the adjacent wall is a large sign with an arrow back along the platform to the 'b' end and the legend "All Passengers Please use B end exit for access to all other platforms via the Red Lounge".)
What is the problem for a normally-sighted passenger here?
View attachment 211530

Problems;

1-What are A and B exits?

How many other stations call them this?

2-What are these lounges you talk about?

I've heard of First Class Lounges. Are they like them?

 

[Adam Williams]

I've heard of First Class Lounges. Are they like them?

The first class lounges uaually have better chairs and are less unpleasant and cold to wait around in, I find.

 

[AlterEgo]

As you approach the stairs, you'll be looking at the stairs and the people in front of you. Not a sign at right angles to where you are heading.

Yes, and a lot of the people will be following a crowd flow which comes from the right of the camera and behind the sign. It will never be seen by many people.

 

[cats_five]

We're talking about changing trains, not doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks.

In clear weather they are easy - at least navigating them is. Follow the big path and the crowds!

 

[Ant1966]

Frankly, that is a terrible sign. What is "all passengers" doing in bold and the largest font? For one it doesn't apply to nearly all passengers! A word along the lines of "transfers" or "connections" needs to be largest.

I agree. "All Passengers" and a left arrow at the top in massive bold font. That's awful design. It very strongly suggests that you HAVE to turn left (A bit like a White on Blue 'All Traffic' sign on a road).
The next thing youd probably notice is some alternative signage going right up the stairs (along with, probably, some other passengers). At this point you'd probably metaphorically shrug and give up on the signage altogether.
FWIW Im a rail enthusiast of 50 years experience with a very good sense of geography and direction. I find BHM very confusing.

 

[1D54]

It's an absolutely dreadful place all round and i will always stay on the WCML to change at Nuneaton if at all possible. If not i'll always use the bridge at the Wolverhampton end of BHM to change platforms so as to avoid the hellish queue for the escalators and the madness upstairs.

 

[Dr Hoo]

As you approach the stairs, you'll be looking at the stairs and the people in front of you. Not a sign at right angles to where you are heading.

I’m clearly in a minority here but if I am expecting to change trains within the station the last thing I’m going to do is charge towards an area screaming “Way Out, Exit, Exit, Exit”; I’ll be looking for directions to other platforms, which the large sign helpfully provides.

In clear weather they are easy - at least navigating them is. Follow the big path and the crowds!

This is fine if you actually want to do the Three Peaks Challenge. Not so helpful when you find yourself on the summit of Whernside when you were only hoping to go to the toilet or find the nearest pub.

If you have individual bespoke needs the last thing to do is ‘follow the crowd’, who probably have other things in mind.

 

[tfw756rider]

Considering the amount of money spent on it, I still find New Street a triumph of style over function.

It will be much nicer when all the diesels are finally banished though.

You're going to be waiting a very long time, as the 196s entered service in October 2022, and the 197s (in New Street terms) in February 2025 (without going into their temporary 'on-off' use there). And only the 197s have Diesel Particulate Filters in addition to the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR)/AdBlue system, with the 196s only having SCR.

Unless you mean the high-emission diesels specifically (170s, 220s and 221s).

 

[xotGD]

In clear weather they are easy - at least navigating them is. Follow the big path and the crowds!

And no glass wall in your way as you head for one of the summits!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 15:50 ==

I’m clearly in a minority here but if I am expecting to change trains within the station the last thing I’m going to do is charge towards an area screaming “Way Out, Exit, Exit, Exit”; I’ll be looking for directions to other platforms, which the large sign helpfully provides.

At every other station, to get to a platform on another island you know that you just have to go up the stairs, over the bridge, and down the other side. How naive to assume that New St works the same way.

 

[Skiddaw]

In clear weather they are easy - at least navigating them is. Follow the big path and the crowds!

...Or chose one of the less obvious routes...

Thing is, an OS map is (IMO) massively easier to read/follow than the signage at Birmingham.