Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine that's for the Manchester Airport services that currently run to Redcar. The 185s aren't great when it comes to luggage space for the Airport runs.

Only because people are bone idle. The overheads are massive and most people these days have hand luggage sized bags that easily fit up there.

 

[mpthomson]

Not sure of the numbers but a fair few

Depepndent on accelaration obviously, but actually likely only around a minute between Thirsk and York

 

[TRAX]

The Adessia Max is a re-branded X’TRAPOLIS Cityduplex.



The TPE trains are a development of the Aventra, rather than anything Alstom-based, but with lower-floor door entrances for level boarding. Look at the cab wind-screen and roof profile, the n-shape around the light above the cab wind-screen, the cab door, and the tall, narrow, squarish-looking saloon windows, and compare it to the Aventra - they’ve just face-lifted the bottom part of the cab. They have 24.2-metre long vehicles, same as an Aventra. Unfortunately, if Alstom haven’t changed it much, and going by the body around the top of the cab then they haven’t, that probably means that they’ll have the same problematic narrow body as the Aventra.
View attachment 211425

Which does show that for trains names are pretty irrelevant and only platform branding (ie. Alstom Metropolis or Siemens Inspiro brands being used for any metros by these manufacturers, regardless of what they really are and if they have an actual link with other trains bearing the same name).

They still won’t be the first Adessia Streams in service, regardless of, as you just showed, what really is or isn’t an Adessia. If they had been presented and ordered a few years ago, these would’ve been X’Trapolis units.

These being based on the Aventra while other Adessia Streams are based on the X’Trapolis or a brand new platform, and still carrying the Adessia Stream branding, does show it’s not a superbly interesting conversation.

 

[quantinghome]

Looks like First Group designed the interior.

Seriously though, we've got expensive 5 car *sigh*, 121m meter trains using 200m platforms on a an upgraded TransPennine. So, you can't even double them up? Have I got that right?

We all know the railway has capacity issues, and their answer is not using 79m of platform?

You couldn't make it up.

As my more florid metaphors on other threads suggests, I'm all for maximising train length as far as we can. However, in this case I wonder if longer trains were ever really on the cards. Many of the stations on Transpennine's eastern branches have pretty short platforms and as far as I am aware there are no plans to extend them. Presumably the 200m platforms are intended to cater for the Newcastle services.

 

[Andyh82]

As my more florid metaphors on other threads suggests, I'm all for maximising train length as far as we can. However, in this case I wonder if longer trains were ever really on the cards. Many of the stations on Transpennine's eastern branches have pretty short platforms and as far as I am aware there are no plans to extend them. Presumably the 200m platforms are intended to cater for the Newcastle services.

Isn’t this the tail wagging the dog?

We can’t have full length trains at Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester because somewhere like Seamer or Thirsk can’t accommodate them

Imagine if they ran short trains on some services on Thameslink because a random suburban station in South London had a short platform

 

[Zomboid]

Presumably the 200m platforms are intended to cater for the Newcastle services

Plus any future longer trains. The cost of building Marsden to 200m over 120m is likely to be pretty marginal, and means that it won't need extension whilst this hugely disruptive upgrade project is fresh in the memory.

The northern operated stoppers may well be a different type of train and make use of more of the platform.

 

[LLivery]

I don't think they've done the official reveal of the GBR style interior yet, so they've probably deliberately kept it vaguely to the current sort of colour scheme for now.

Haha, I wasn't being serious!

2x 185s have 338-362 seats (if you include tip ups or not)

I’m guessing they hope the media won’t notice any of this and just assume any new trains for the north is good because all trains in the north are 50 years old (as the media would probably think)

Just tuned into LBC, the new trains are mentioned in the top of the hour headlines, and at the end, the presenter says: 'rail commentators say the trains could be longer'

As my more florid metaphors on other threads suggests, I'm all for maximising train length as far as we can. However, in this case I wonder if longer trains were ever really on the cards. Many of the stations on Transpennine's eastern branches have pretty short platforms and as far as I am aware there are no plans to extend them. Presumably the 200m platforms are intended to cater for the Newcastle services.

I do hope this is the case. Saying that, they should say that, right? It's pretty normal for new train announcements to say where the trains would be used, avoiding obvious head scratching and potential PR disaster of people thinking there's less capacity on an upgraded route.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would have more than enough time to get up to 125mph and stay at it on the ECML, especially between Thirsk and York.

How many minutes quicker overall?

Not sure of the numbers but a fair few

To put some maths and physics behind it, Allowing for the stops either end, and the lower speed restrictions at the York end and the crossovers to / from the slows at Thirsk, even if they did use the fast lines, then they would have at best 17 miles at 125 vs 110. The difference is 4 seconds a mile. So a shade over a minute, which rounds to one minute.

 

[43096]

Usual ? When was the last time Alstom delivered anything to the UK ? And don’t quote the 701s, that was Alstom having to deal with Bombardier’s issues.

In the last few weeks… 345s currently coming out of Derby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine if they ran short trains on some services on Thameslink because a random suburban station in South London had a short platform

Isn't that exactly why they have the 8 car units rather than a uniform fleet of 12s?

 

[43096]

The press releases are all British-this and British-that, but I expect most of the clever bits, ie the electrics, will be French.

Or Swedish. There’s not been UK built traction equipment since Alstom Preston work was transferred to France. So 20 years ago or so.

 

[marsker]

If the trains had been specified for over 110mph, you'd lose 1/3 of each end coach as passengers can't be carried there. So the cost of an extra coach is saved.

 

[David Bullock]

Only because people are bone idle. The overheads are massive and most people these days have hand luggage sized bags that easily fit up there.

It might be the time of year with students coming back, but I’ve been on the 1545 airport to Redcar a few times this week and it’s a busy service and lots of people travelling with big suitcases coming from quite far afield

 

[fat_boy_pete]

I think that's a rather beautiful quote, actually. Quite motivating on a Friday morning!

To be pedantic the proverb is:

“A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”

Which is more poetic

 

[quantinghome]

To be pedantic the proverb is:

“A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”

Which is more poetic

To be even more pedantic, it's one of those proverbs which is frequently misattributed to the ancient Greeks or the like, when the earliest version we know of dates to the 18th or 19th century - although no doubt the Greeks were familiar with the idea. The adage has changed considerably over time, with the precise form you quoted originating in 1992. Also I didn't want to suggest other forumers are old men! (although let's face it, it's more likely than not...)

 

[fat_boy_pete]

To be even more pedantic, it's one of those proverbs which is frequently misattributed to the ancient Greeks or the like, when the earliest version we know of dates to the 18th or 19th century - although no doubt the Greeks were familiar with the idea. The adage has changed considerably over time, with the precise form you quoted originating in 1992. Also I didn't want to suggest other forumers are old men! (although let's face it, it's more likely than not...)

Well that out pedanted this old man

 

[quantinghome]

Isn’t this the tail wagging the dog?

We can’t have full length trains at Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester because somewhere like Seamer or Thirsk can’t accommodate them

Imagine if they ran short trains on some services on Thameslink because a random suburban station in South London had a short platform

Well yes, it is the tail wagging the dog. It would however be a considerable investment to extend the platforms on the Eastern branches to 200m.

Or they could just hitch them up with a 3-car 185 through the Transpennine core... problem solved!

 

[speedy1]

Yearly reminder from the DfT that if you want good trains, stop being poor and move to London or the South East

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yearly reminder from the DfT that if you want good trains, stop being poor and move to London or the South East

They're a poshed up 720/730. How are they not good compared to what you get in London and the South East?

 

[speedy1]

They're a poshed up 720/730. How are they not good compared to what you get in London and the South East?

A decade away (decade too late - ditto infra upgrades) and too short

You also wrote "The 720 is problematic" upthread

 

[thelongestroad]

The customers of the TPE south route will be delighted with this news.

P.S Why is everyone rounding 7-8 years up to 10?

 

[fishwomp]

To put some maths and physics behind it, Allowing for the stops either end, and the lower speed restrictions at the York end and the crossovers to / from the slows at Thirsk, even if they did use the fast lines, then they would have at best 17 miles at 125 vs 110. The difference is 4 seconds a mile. So a shade over a minute, which rounds to one minute.

Some disconnect here on the Church Fenton to York work: https://thetrupgrade.co.uk/e1-electrification/

Between July and November 2022, engineers worked almost 9,000 hours to install a total of 37 miles of overhead wire along this four-track stretch of line, together with an additional 9 miles of earth wires. Work was carried out overnight at weekends to cause as little disruption to passengers as possible.

When the new wires are energised in Autumn 2024, they will allow more environmentally friendly electric and hybrid trains to run along this section at speeds of up to 125mph – that’s 30mph faster than they currently run

Well.. for an 8 mile section, it'll be worth even less than the Thirsk bit - but at least they'll still have the Hitachis..

 

[Bletchleyite]

You also wrote "The 720 is problematic" upthread

The 720 is only problematic because of the 3+2 seating layout which should really never be done in a 23/24m body and is pretty much always too narrow when it is.

Aside from that, the 730 (the same train with a 2+2 layout and gangways) is a good train. High capacity and popular with passengers. And this is a nicer version of that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 11:30 ==

The customers of the TPE south route will be delighted with this news.

I think they look nice. Big windows and spacious. The only issue I have with 730/2s is the lack of legroom in a lot of the seats, but I'm less bothered now I've found an extra legroom seat with a window view that doesn't generally (unlike the 350 priority rows) get taken first.

 

[thelongestroad]

I think they look nice. Big windows and spacious. The only issue I have with 730/2s is the lack of legroom in a lot of the seats, but I'm less bothered now I've found an extra legroom seat with a window view that doesn't generally (unlike the 350 priority rows) get taken first.

I was being facetious as I assume they aren't ordering enough units to cover replacing the whole 185 fleet.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The 444s are nice comfortable long distance commuting trains but that seat total is gained at the expense of holiday and weekend travellers who bring along children in buggies and large items of luggage. They also have seating in long saloons with narrower doors in separate vestibules at each end.

Class 810 is basically the same length train with the same number of seats (120m and 302 seats).

The only other point in top speed is that the lack of 125mph capability might also reduce flexibility. Some people here and elsewhere were pretty critical of the situation that led to TPE having 4 different fleets. This restores that complexity as some 185s are retained. An obvious simplification would be to buy more of these to replace either the 397s and/or 802s. So is that option off the table, or is the long-term plan that TPE will be a 110mph operation and things like the 802s were just bought because a 125/140mph off-the-shelf bimode was cheaper than a bespoke 110mph variant?

Can completely see why Alstom look to be re-using the structural design of the Aventra. Why would you redesign all that unless there's been some big change to regulations, to your manufacturing technology or it's required to accommodate very different components. Software/electronics-wise, I guess they could be very different. That may be a blessing or a curse.

 

[800001]

I was being facetious as I assume they aren't ordering enough units to cover replacing the whole 185 fleet.

No they are not ordering enough to replace all of the 185s.

Some 185s will still be retained by TPE to operate on the South route to Cleethorpes.

 

[Electrostar387]

Isn't that exactly why they have the 8 car units rather than a uniform fleet of 12s?

For primarily going around the Sutton/Wimbledon Loop? Yes.

However, 12 car 700s can indeed stop at many a short platform. For e.g. on the Horsham services, a 12 car stops at Ifield (5 car) Faygate (4 car) and on the Brighton Main Line on the down stops at Balcombe (8 Car) quite happily.

No issue whatsoever with long trains stopping at short platforms - Lancing on the south coast being a great example as 4 car platforms and the rear 8 hanging off the station fouls the level crossing until the train departs (this also used to be the case at Littlehaven near Horsham until the platform was extended). Of course, 700s no longer go to Littlehampton, but 377s have done it for yonks.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

The customers of the TPE south route will be delighted with this news.

P.S Why is everyone rounding 7-8 years up to 10?

rolling stock entry-into-service always takes longer than expected, is there any fleet that has ever been exactly on time from the predictions given this early on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 444s are nice comfortable long distance commuting trains but that seat total is gained at the expense of holiday and weekend travellers who bring along children in buggies and large items of luggage. They also have seating in long saloons with narrower doors in separate vestibules at each end.

End doors are I'm afraid dead as an idea - they are not possible for level boarding because the bit above the bogies will always need to be higher than platform level. Thus all new trains will have doors somewhere around thirds whether regional or intercity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 11:52 ==

The only other point in top speed is that the lack of 125mph capability might also reduce flexibility. Some people here and elsewhere were pretty critical of the situation that led to TPE having 4 different fleets. This restores that complexity as some 185s are retained. An obvious simplification would be to buy more of these to replace either the 397s and/or 802s. So is that option off the table, or is the long-term plan that TPE will be a 110mph operation and things like the 802s were just bought because a 125/140mph off-the-shelf bimode was cheaper than a bespoke 110mph variant?

There will if I'm understanding correctly be a third fleet - pure 125mph (or faster) EMUs to run Liverpool to Newcastle fasts on the ECML. What these will be isn't announced yet. 802s would also do that to be fair.

I believe 802s were bought for two main reasons - one, that they were an off the shelf bimode, and two, that they can run at 125mph on the north ECML. The other three destinations have far shorter runs on the ECML.

 

[NCT]

The 5-car train length is disappointing. I suspect with current 185s, 3 cars are too tight but 6 cars too generous. DfT and Treasury must have run the numbers and arrived at 5 as an affordable number that's greater than 3.