What is Control (not a philosophical discussion!)

[birchesgreen]

So, not a big bloke in a top hat?

 

[WAB]

Just out of interest, when Great British Railways finally comes in. What do you think will be the future of all the splintered current Network Rail and TOC’s control rooms?

An end to different-coloured chairs for the different sides of the office??

In more seriousness, a sort out of the various controls at Birmingham, shared management teams with more emphasis on a unified culture and perhaps Train Service Controllers being allowed to make regulating decisions and put VSTP paths in themselves in self-contained areas?

 

[jimjim]

Back in the oughties I worked in the Virgin Trains Control on Smallbrook Queensway in Birmingham which housed both XC and WC. I understand there was a lot of pressure to move us in with Network Rail and other TOCs in the Mailbox to became an ICC. Virgin resisted it but when the franchise passed to Arriva in 2007 the stance changed and XC and WC moved in along with London Midland Trains.

Unfortunately the Mailbox was far from what was expected - mice running over your feet !!! So XC Control left and moved "back" to XC HQ building ikn Birmingham and I believe LM also moved out. The ICC didn't really work out.

Close but not quite right.

Virgin WC were in the Mailbox before 2007 alongside Central Trains (I'm going to guess I visited them in there in 2004 or 5)

As you say Cross Country didn't come in until after Arriva took them over and then left.

It ended because NR decided to split their Control and send half of their staff to Rugby and the other half to Saltley. Virgin and London Midland didn't want to split their staff (and I don't think Saltley had the room) so they retreated to their respective head offices in Birmingham City Centre) Different now but that's another story!

How the Mailbox Canteen got a score of 5 when I saw mice run across the floor has always made me wonder about places which don't get a score of 5....

 

[Kilopylae]

the freight ancillary operators like Rail Adventure, LSL and WCR

These are the charter operators for railtours?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Close but not quite right.

Virgin WC were in the Mailbox before 2007 alongside Central Trains (I'm going to guess I visited them in there in 2004 or 5)

Thanks for the correction.
I didn't really notice what happened to VWC then. I just remember that Virgin held out againts XC moving into the Mailbox.

As you say Cross Country didn't come in until after Arriva took them over and then left.

It ended because NR decided to split their Control and send half of their staff to Rugby and the other half to Saltley. Virgin and London Midland didn't want to split their staff (and I don't think Saltley had the room) so they retreated to their respective head offices in Birmingham City Centre) Different now but that's another story!

I think a lot of NR staff were expected to move to Milton Keynes, but that didn't altogether materialise. I remember a former colleague who lived in Walsall electing not to commute to Milton Keynes everyday !!

How the Mailbox Canteen got a score of 5 when I saw mice run across the floor has always made me wonder about places which don't get a score of 5....

Yes. I had mice run over my shoes mope than once !!

Ans why did the canteen close at 1400 - the time the afternoon shift were just starting !!

 

[Harpo]

I think a lot of NR staff were expected to move to Milton Keynes, but that didn't altogether materialise.

Quite! The MFK move saw an enormous amount of experience let go.

 

[Horizon22]

Quite! The MFK move saw an enormous amount of experience let go.

Same thing - to a lesser extent - happened when SWR Control moved to Basingstoke ROC from Waterloo.

 

[Recessio]

Does anyone remember the 80s BR (possibly NSE) training video where they always say "CON-trol" with the emphasis on the first syllable? Very odd. I can't seem to find the video though...

Also seen some external staff from say the emergency services (inc. their control) really struggle, yet some succeed and progress.

That's very interesting - I was going to ask if it's at all comparable to other control centres such as emergency services, or air traffic control?

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Does anyone remember the 80s BR (possibly NSE) training video where they always say "CON-trol" with the emphasis on the first syllable? Very odd. I can't seem to find the video though...

Yeah there was definitely one about the introduction of a computerised system for mileage based train maintenance in the Wessex area and they all said control in that way. There might have been 2 videos: the first about a Southampton points failure causing the wrong unit to end up at the depot for planned inspection, and the other has the infamous Paul Tyreman playing a sloppy driver who didn't report a break fault until the very end of his shift. I can't seem to find them either!

 

[Recessio]

Yeah there was definitely one about the introduction of a computerised system for mileage based train maintenance in the Wessex area and they all said control in that way. There might have been 2 videos: the first about a Southampton points failure causing the wrong unit to end up at the depot for planned inspection, and the other has the infamous Paul Tyreman playing a sloppy driver who didn't report a break fault until the very end of his shift. I can't seem to find them either!

Wessex area sounds right, I'm sure one of the scenes is someone pretending to talk into a telephone who says "Pompey" about 30 times in 30 seconds

 

[Horizon22]

Does anyone remember the 80s BR (possibly NSE) training video where they always say "CON-trol" with the emphasis on the first syllable? Very odd. I can't seem to find the video though...

This is very much a Kent and to a lesser extent Sussex/Wessex specialism!

That's very interesting - I was going to ask if it's at all comparable to other control centres such as emergency services, or air traffic control?

Probably similar to emergency services control more, although the intensity and severity of issues is a bit different and there are lots of people from BTP and local police forces who have jumped across. Many say the pay and T&Cs are much better.

Air traffic control is closer to signalling in reality and they find it more akin to being in a ROC or IECC.

 

[Omnishambles]

Remember the mice in the Mailbox office, and to think some people used to grab a few hours kip on nights under the desk
Don’t ever remember any talk of moving to MK but I was against splitting the 2 sides of NR which at the time left 1 RCM going to Rugby but managing Saltley too.
From a jealousy perspective summer late turns or 12hr nights were particularly bad seeing all the people enjoying themselves in the bars outside in the basin

 

[WAB]

From a jealousy perspective summer late turns or 12hr nights were particularly bad seeing all the people enjoying themselves in the bars outside in the basin

On the other hand, the controls in the ROC feel quite cut off from the rest of the railway, and the locations themselves range from uninspiring to utterly grim.

 

[Wyrleybart]

From a jealousy perspective summer late turns or 12hr nights were particularly bad seeing all the people enjoying themselves in the bars outside in the basin

And Shefali on the rare occasion she did the weather outside !!

 

[Omnishambles]

And Shefali on the rare occasion she did the weather outside !!

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Don’t ever remember any talk of moving to MK but I was against splitting the 2 sides of NR which at the time left 1 RCM going to Rugby but managing Saltley too.

Interesting to learn about the consequences of Central and WCML South routes. I think they're trying to make a WCML North route as well, maybe to ultimately join them together like East Coast route?

It ended because NR decided to split their Control and send half of their staff to Rugby and the other half to Saltley. Virgin and London Midland didn't want to split their staff (and I don't think Saltley had the room) so they retreated to their respective head offices in Birmingham City Centre) Different now but that's another story!

So what was the justification for NR splitting apart the Midland area into Central and WCML South? Kind of sounds like a disintegration of operations caused by NR machinations rather than privatisation directly. But equally interesting to learn about the events which ultimately led to XC control working out of an office with a somewhat un-resilient power supply.

 

[Tio Terry]

Second Arm front usually!

I don't suppose many of you will have a clue what that means.

Many years ago when Royalty had to visit Sandringham, on the Royal Train before the last one, somebody had to travel on the train wearing leg irons ready to jump out and climb up the nearest telegraph pole if the train stopped for some unscheduled reason, clip a portable phone on the Control circuit and alert Control. You carried a pole rig book which told you where the Control circuit was on the pole route over the route you were travelling - which was very often well off your district so you had to get the information well in advance of the train running.

As a young trainee I was very surprised when I was told to be on the Train from Kings Lynn to London one relatively early morning, I was told later that it was because nobody else wanted to climb a telegraph pole wearing leg irons, it isn't easy!

I did several trips, but when the new train arrived it all stopped, radio had taken over.

So, to me, Control will always be second arm front!

 

[AF91]

I would say "Control" colloquially refers to resource managers, STP train planners, and the information delivery teams at the train operating companies. May also extend to Network Rail signalling and ECRO staff.

STP planners are generally part of a wider train planning department and wouldn't normally be considered to be control.

My definition would be that train planning would deal with anything pre- planned and control would deal with anything that happens on the day.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I'd be quite interested to know if anyone can share any examples of how geographies are divided up within a Route by NR Train Running Controllers, and within a company area by TOC Service Controllers (although these are sometimes also called TRCs??). Obviously, I'd imagine it has a lot to do with the intensity of service.

 

[Omnishambles]

I'd be quite interested to know if anyone can share any examples of how geographies are divided up within a Route by NR Train Running Controllers, and within a company area by TOC Service Controllers (although these are sometimes also called TRCs??). Obviously, I'd imagine it has a lot to do with the intensity of service.

Set up for NR LNW South used to be;
WCS Controller plus assistant, covered Euston to Rugby (IIRC)
WCN Controller plus assistant covered Rugby to Crewe
WM Controller covered Stour lines through New St to Penkridge plus Walsall, XCity and toward Salop
Chiltern Controller covered Marylebone through Snow Hill to Hartlebury
1 assist controller supported both the above.
2 x TRC = 1 x WC, 1 x WM (TOCs had their own route controllers as well)
RCM managed the overall but am quite sure this has changed with control splits to different locations and changes in ops models.

Would be interested to know how this stacks up today ?

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Interesting, thanks. Looks like there was already a division between the Trent Valley+via Stoke lines and the rest that would eventually become a Route boundary.

2 x TRC = 1 x WC, 1 x WM (TOCs had their own route controllers as well)

I think I'm missing something, but if the previous four controllers (WCN, WCS, WM, Ch) are *not* the TRCs? Then who are they?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Second Arm front usually!

I don't suppose many of you will have a clue what that means.

Many years ago when Royalty had to visit Sandringham, on the Royal Train before the last one, somebody had to travel on the train wearing leg irons ready to jump out and climb up the nearest telegraph pole if the train stopped for some unscheduled reason, clip a portable phone on the Control circuit and alert Control. You carried a pole rig book which told you where the Control circuit was on the pole route over the route you were travelling - which was very often well off your district so you had to get the information well in advance of the train running.

As a young trainee I was very surprised when I was told to be on the Train from Kings Lynn to London one relatively early morning, I was told later that it was because nobody else wanted to climb a telegraph pole wearing leg irons, it isn't easy!

I did several trips, but when the new train arrived it all stopped, radio had taken over.

So, to me, Control will always be second arm front!

In the last days of 222 Marylebone Road , I found a discarded copy of the Tanganikan Rule book - fascinating document and carefully updated by it's one time owner - the classification of trains was interesting with total priority given to HMG's Governer being total and those conveyed solely "natives" the bottom of the hierarchy.
In the event of an emergency , the "loco boy" was to be sent up a telegraph pole to break into the circuit and send via morse code an emergency message !

 

[Omnishambles]

Th

Interesting, thanks. Looks like there was already a division between the Trent Valley+via Stoke lines and the rest that would eventually become a Route boundary.

I think I'm missing something, but if the previous four controllers (WCN, WCS, WM, Ch) are *not* the TRCs? Then who are they?

They were Incident Controllers. Managed responses to events/incidents and logged faults failures, directing maintenance teams as required. TRCs worked with them to manage services around any problem and in general higher level regulating

 

[JN114]

I'd be quite interested to know if anyone can share any examples of how geographies are divided up within a Route by NR Train Running Controllers, and within a company area by TOC Service Controllers (although these are sometimes also called TRCs??). Obviously, I'd imagine it has a lot to do with the intensity of service.

Western Route

For NR Train Running Controllers, aligned with signalbox / workstation boundaries

NR TV0 TRC

(TVSC Paddington, Paddington Assist, Acton, Hayes, Heathrow and Slough)

NR TV1 TRC

(TVSC Twyford, Reading Station, Newbury; Westbury Panel)

NR TV2 TRC

(TVSC Reading W Jn, Didcot, Oxford, Swindon; Ascott-u-Wychwood SB, Evesham SB)

NR WC TRC

(TVSC Stoke Gifford, Bath, Bristol; Bristol Panel, Gloucester Panel, Exeter Panel, Exmouth Jn, Crediton, Paignton, Plymouth Panel, Liskeard SB, Mid Cornwall, St Blazey, Goonbarrow, St Erth and Penzance)

***

Crossrail West Duty Controller (Paddington to Reading for XR)

***

GWR TSM East - Paddington to Swindon, Paddington to Hereford, Paddington to Banbury, Paddington to Westbury

GWR TSM Wessex - Heathrow Express, Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley branches, Reading to Gatwick, Reading to Basingstoke, Westbury to Portsmouth, Westbury to Weymouth, Westbury to Swindon

GWR TSM Central - Swindon to Gloucester, Bristol to Westbury, Bristol to Swindon, Bristol to Ashchurch, Bristol to S Wales, Bristol to Severn Beach, Bristol to Taunton

GWR TSM West - Westbury to Taunton, Taunton and every west of.

***

XC South Coast controller looks after XC services on the axis down from the route boundary south of Banbury, to Bournemouth

XC South West controller looks after XC services on the axis down from Worcestershire parkway to Plymouth and Cardiff

***

SWR Windsor Lines TSM looks after services into Reading via Ascot

SWR West TSM looks after diesel services to Reading (from Basingstoke), and through Westbury, Caste Cary; and into Exeter

***

There’s lots of variety with the freight operators; some have a single point of contact, some are split on geography, some are split on commodities.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Th

They were Incident Controllers. Managed responses to events/incidents and logged faults failures, directing maintenance teams as required. TRCs worked with them to manage services around any problem and in general higher level regulating

Ah I see, interesting the Incident Controllers have a smaller remit than TRCs, suggests something of how all these concepts are meant to function. I suppose an incident controller will have a lot of different people to talk to surrounding all the different parties involved in something, whereas maybe the TRCs are more primarily concerned with what trains are in the area and what they should do, meaning they're more likely focused on speaking to drivers and signallers. Is there a meaningful difference in seniority between incident controller and TRC?

Western Route

For NR Train Running Controllers, aligned with signalbox / workstation boundaries

Thanks so much for this, very much what I wanted. I might make a little graphic out of this at some later date. Is it normal practice across the railway to divide TRC along signalling lines? Seems sensible.
I assume TSM means "Train Service Manager".
Interesting that the TOC controls still have a geographic split wherein a London-Penzance train will cross all the TOC internal boundaries as well as NR controller boundaries.

 

[WAB]

Ah I see, interesting the Incident Controllers have a smaller remit than TRCs, suggests something of how all these concepts are meant to function. I suppose an incident controller will have a lot of different people to talk to surrounding all the different parties involved in something, whereas maybe the TRCs are more primarily concerned with what trains are in the area and what they should do, meaning they're more likely focused on speaking to drivers and signallers. Is there a meaningful difference in seniority between incident controller and TRC?

Incident Controllers are the more senior role and 'take charge' more. NR controllers don't tend to have interactions with TOC staff directly - they deal primarily with signallers, MOMs etc.

Thanks so much for this, very much what I wanted. I might make a little graphic out of this at some later date. Is it normal practice across the railway to divide TRC along signalling lines? Seems sensible.
I assume TSM means "Train Service Manager".
Interesting that the TOC controls still have a geographic split wherein a London-Penzance train will cross all the TOC internal boundaries as well as NR controller boundaries.

TSM = Train service manager. Some TOCs group by area, others group by service group (e.g., Avanti have the Anglo Scots, West Mids and North West). All TOC controls are set up very differently in terms of the division of responsibilities.

 

[Annetts key]

Western Route

For NR Train Running Controllers, aligned with signalbox / workstation boundaries

NR TV0 TRC

(TVSC Paddington, Paddington Assist, Acton, Hayes, Heathrow and Slough)

NR TV1 TRC

(TVSC Twyford, Reading Station, Newbury; Westbury Panel)

NR TV2 TRC

(TVSC Reading W Jn, Didcot, Oxford, Swindon; Ascott-u-Wychwood SB, Evesham SB)

NR WC TRC

(TVSC Stoke Gifford, Bath, Bristol; Bristol Panel, Gloucester Panel, Exeter Panel, Exmouth Jn, Crediton, Paignton, Plymouth Panel, Liskeard SB, Mid Cornwall, St Blazey, Goonbarrow, St Erth and Penzance)

***

Crossrail West Duty Controller (Paddington to Reading for XR)

***

GWR TSM East - Paddington to Swindon, Paddington to Hereford, Paddington to Banbury, Paddington to Westbury

GWR TSM Wessex - Heathrow Express, Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley branches, Reading to Gatwick, Reading to Basingstoke, Westbury to Portsmouth, Westbury to Weymouth, Westbury to Swindon

GWR TSM Central - Swindon to Gloucester, Bristol to Westbury, Bristol to Swindon, Bristol to Ashchurch, Bristol to S Wales, Bristol to Severn Beach, Bristol to Taunton

GWR TSM West - Westbury to Taunton, Taunton and every west of.

***

XC South Coast controller looks after XC services on the axis down from the route boundary south of Banbury, to Bournemouth

XC South West controller looks after XC services on the axis down from Worcestershire parkway to Plymouth and Cardiff

***

SWR Windsor Lines TSM looks after services into Reading via Ascot

SWR West TSM looks after diesel services to Reading (from Basingstoke), and through Westbury, Caste Cary; and into Exeter

***

There’s lots of variety with the freight operators; some have a single point of contact, some are split on geography, some are split on commodities.

I remember the days in the 1980s before Western Region had a fault control. Bristol Panel had a supervisor for the four signallers on the operating floor that often appeared to make decisions. It was this supervisor that often called the (S&T) signalling fault team when they were needed (although sometimes one of the signallers would do this).

There was a control, but I couldn't tell you much about it, as it was not talked about much.

At some point in the early 1990s, Western set up a fault control (started off as Signal Fault Control - SFC, and only handled signalling failures, but expanded to Infrastructure Fault Control - IFC, that now handled all infrastructure failures, although in both cases, telecoms faults were passed to the telecoms fault control which was elsewhere and existed long beforehand).

Now the fault teams at Bristol, despite being based in the same building as the signallers, had to wait for the signallers to report the fault to fault control (which was based in Swindon in the same building as control). Then they (not always the same person who took the call from the signaller) would telephone the signalling fault team. The team leader would then walk the six metres along the corridor to talk to the signaller on the operating floor to find out what the problem actually was as opposed to the third or fourth hand description from fault control...

 

[mono1989]

At Three Bridges ROC with GTR we are divided as follows:

Train Service Managers

Southern Brighton Mainline TSM: Victoria-Brighton including Redhill-Reigate and Redhill-Tonbridge

Southern Coastway: West of Three Bridges towards Horsham, Barnham and Bognor/Portsmouth and Southampton as well as East of Haywards Heath towards Lewes including the Coastway routes from Littlehampton to Hastings/Rye/Ashford via Brighton and Eastbourne

Southern Metro: London Victoria and London Bridge Services towards Sutton/Epsom/Dorking and Horsham. Services via the South London Lines via Bermondsey and Peckham. Services towards Crystal Palace and Beckenham Junction. Services via the West London Line to Watford Junction and also services towards Oxted Uckfield and East Grinstead.

Thameslink South: Brighton/Three Bridges/Horsham/East Grinstead to London Blackfriars

Thameslink West: Bedford/Luton/East Grinstead mainline services to Blackfriars. Luton-Rainham services to Blackfriars. St Albans-Sutton complete. Orpington-Luton Peak to Blackfriars.

Thameslink East: Peterborough/Cambridge Class 9 to Finsbury Park. Luton-Rainham from London Bridge. Sevenoaks-Welwyn/Blackfriars complete. Orpington to Luton as far as Blackfriars.

GN Domestic: All Class 1 and Class 2 GN services

NR TRC
TRC Outer: Everything south of Redhill except Thameslink.

TRC Inner: Everything north of Redhill except Thameslink.

TRC Core: All Class 9's as far as St Pancras

FRL TRC: West Croydon/ Crystal Palace/Clapham Junction up to the overground Core. Clapham Junction to Wilsden High Level

 

[nlt]

There's some history of Control here: https://newwoodlesford.xyz/woodlesford-station/trains/train-control/

 

[Wyrleybart]

XC South Coast controller looks after XC services on the axis down from the route boundary south of Banbury, to Bournemouth

XC South West controller looks after XC services on the axis down from Worcestershire parkway to Plymouth and Cardiff

Western Route

XC South Coast controller looks after XC services on the axis down from the route boundary south of Banbury, to Bournemouth

XC South West controller looks after XC services on the axis down from Worcestershire parkway to Plymouth and Cardiff

If you are referring to the XC route controllers it is actually Five Ways to Penzance / Cardiff including Galton Jn via Hartlebury for the SW Controller and Proof House Jn to Bournemouth on the South Coast desk.

For completeness the senior XC route controller (known as MMA) encompasses Manchester Midlands and Anglia as well as routes north to Chesterfield, where the SNES controller takes over for Aberdeen and Glasgow.
Four desks