Free Bus Travel for young people: Soon to be in England.

[alex397]

From my observations on various bus journeys recently in Kent, it’s been a positive thing.

Children politely asking the driver for the free ticket, and a ticket is issued. I was assuming no tickets would be issued at all, and it would just be recorded on the machine.
A Thanet Loop bus I was on yesterday was about 60% children with their mates, mostly all having a friendly chatter, and no anti-social behaviour. I heard the usual noise coming from a phone, but that was from a lady in her 60s watching Facebook reels (most of the anti-social phone use I have observed recently is from the older generation!)
No doubt there will be associated anti-social behaviour related to this scheme, but I’ve yet to see any of that myself.
Hopefully many of these kids using the bus may be those who may not usually use the bus, and will see the positives of bus travel, such as not having to have those uncool parents drop them off or pick them up all the time!

 

[jamestaylor94]

Speaking from a Hull operator.

Massive upturn in kids using the services. However also a massive upturn in incidents.

We’ve had assaults the lot.

I for one and most of the depot are looking forward to the scheme being over.

I feel bad for the genuine kids using it. However for the most park, we have become a mobile babysitter. Kids safety is not thought about. They are just getting on and going to places they don’t even know. Wandering around.

We had 2 13 year olds board a 0430 service that terminated in a village out of the city. (For factory workers). Contract states members of the public can not remain on the bus as it enters factory grounds. This put the driver in a position.

It genuinely got to the point were I considered going on unpaid leave until September.

Like I say not every child is like this and hopefully the ones who have used the scheme properly will return, however after speaking to our directors they’ve already been on with the DFT about how it’s been a disaster in our region.

 

[em81]

I was on a bus morning. Two youngish teens sat behind didn't seem aware of where the bus stops were. And a mum boarded with presumably her mum and daughter, asked to pay for 3 and was told the kid travels free. So it sounds like it's attracting new users, as well as offering free travel to those who are unaware of the scheme and would have travelled anyway.

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How does this whole scheme work in terms of payments to bus companies, does it come from the Government? There are very large numbers of suspicious looking over 16s using the freebie tickets simply by asking for an under 16 ticket. No ID checks at all from any driver so I dread to think how much in tax I'll have to cough up going forward should this scheme continue. To make it fair on those who don't have kids, parents should be taxed because why am I paying for other parents kids?

You always pay for other's kids. There isn't a separate parent tax to pay for schools, state funded nursery places, youth clubs, the family element of Universal Credit, parental leave pay etc.

The current working age people (which includes many of us) have got a bit of a bad deal. We're funding the state pensions of women who retired at 60 and often didn't put much into the NI pot, but are now unexpectedly living in their 80s and 90s in many cases. So they can get more years of state pension than they worked for. While we're going to be expected to work until 68, 69 or even higher.

While as you probably realise we're not Norway. We don't have billions already in the pot to pay for our pensions. We're paying for the current pensioners and the children of today will pay for the pensioners of the future. So there is an argument there that it's important to give them a good education so they can secure useful and high earning jobs.

 

[820KDV]

Its good to read that the scheme is being used, and that when children travel free parents/grandparents will often go as paying customers. This is what our local independent operator has found for years by offering their own scheme (up to 2 children with a fare paying or ENCTS passenger) every school holiday, without any external funding.

The whole point of issuing tickets was that the young people had to have some sort of interaction with the driver as a child protection safeguard, and acting as bit of a check on them having to have an idea of where they are going when asking for the ticket rather than riding around aimlessly.

My local unitary council has done a lot of promotion of the scheme through social media and residents e-newsletters, but has anyone seen any of the bus side Great British Summer Savings adverts DfT said they were buying? I've not seen any around here.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Its good to read that the scheme is being used, and that when children travel free parents/grandparents will often go as paying customers. This is what our local independent operator has found for years by offering their own scheme (up to 2 children with a fare paying or ENCTS passenger) every school holiday, without any external funding.

The whole point of issuing tickets was that the young people had to have some sort of interaction with the driver as a child protection safeguard, and acting as bit of a check on them having to have an idea of where they are going when asking for the ticket rather than riding around aimlessly.

My local unitary council has done a lot of promotion of the scheme through social media and residents e-newsletters, but has anyone seen any of the bus side Great British Summer Savings adverts DfT said they were buying? I've not seen any around here.

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This interaction thing doesn't work, a week ago in Leeds, a large group of clueless kids stopped the Beeston 24 outside Asda Head Office (what the hell were they doing there as there is nothing nearby except maybe Smiths toy store half a mile away over very busy roads) asking if he went to Holt Park! Clearly they can't read, and clearly they never told the original driver what stop they were going to and just randomly took the bus there from Holt Park.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The current working age people (which includes many of us) have got a bit of a bad deal. We're funding the state pensions of women who retired at 60 and often didn't put much into the NI pot, but are now unexpectedly living in their 80s and 90s in many cases. So they can get more years of state pension than they worked for. While we're going to be expected to work until 68, 69 or even higher.

While as you probably realise we're not Norway. We don't have billions already in the pot to pay for our pensions. We're paying for the current pensioners and the children of today will pay for the pensioners of the future. So there is an argument there that it's important to give them a good education so they can secure useful and high earning jobs.

When the welfare state was created, there was suddenly a load of people who had never "paid in" or had a shortish working life. That was ok because the average life expectancy was 68. The ratio of workers to welfare claimants (i.e. pensions or sick) was 5:1. Now it is 3.5:1 for two reasons - the success of the NHS means average life expectancy is 82, and that there are many more sickness related benefits. You are right (and it annoys me when folks say it) that there is no pot of money that people pay into. Essentially the two generations that follow pay for the pensioners of today.

Roger French has done a very good article on his blog today. You may not agree with him but I think he raises some very valid points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the welfare state was created, there was suddenly a load of people who had never "paid in" or had a shortish working life. That was ok because the average life expectancy was 68. The ratio of workers to welfare claimants (i.e. pensions or sick) was 5:1. Now it is 3.5:1 for two reasons - the success of the NHS means average life expectancy is 82, and that there are many more sickness related benefits. You are right (and it annoys me when folks say it) that there is no pot of money that people pay into. Essentially the two generations that follow pay for the pensioners of today.

Roger French has done a very good article on his blog today. You may not agree with him but I think he raises some very valid points.

I've created a thread in general to continue this non-bus side of the discussion: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-state-challenges-posed-and-solutions.306079/

 

[Deerfold]

Speaking from a Hull operator.

Massive upturn in kids using the services. However also a massive upturn in incidents.

We’ve had assaults the lot.

I for one and most of the depot are looking forward to the scheme being over.

I feel bad for the genuine kids using it. However for the most park, we have become a mobile babysitter. Kids safety is not thought about. They are just getting on and going to places they don’t even know. Wandering around.

When I was 11 and up I used to love going on a bus and exploring - finding places I didn't know and exploring them. I'm not sure what the problem with wandering around is, in itself. From 14 I didn't even have to buy day tickets to do it as it was cheaper for my parents to get me a monthly ticket to get to school, so at weekends I went all over the place (with a time I had to be home which increased as I got older).

We had 2 13 year olds board a 0430 service that terminated in a village out of the city. (For factory workers). Contract states members of the public can not remain on the bus as it enters factory grounds. This put the driver in a position.

It genuinely got to the point were I considered going on unpaid leave until September.

Like I say not every child is like this and hopefully the ones who have used the scheme properly will return, however after speaking to our directors they’ve already been on with the DFT about how it’s been a disaster in our region.

Presumably the problem there is that 13-year olds are wandering around without parental supervision in the early hours of the morning, not that they're allowed to catch a bus for nothing? Did the driver ask them where they going? Tell them they wouldn't be allowed to stay on until the end of the route?

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This interaction thing doesn't work, a week ago in Leeds, a large group of clueless kids stopped the Beeston 24 outside Asda Head Office (what the hell were they doing there as there is nothing nearby except maybe Smiths toy store half a mile away over very busy roads) asking if he went to Holt Park! Clearly they can't read, and clearly they never told the original driver what stop they were going to and just randomly took the bus there from Holt Park.

Where do you think young people should be allowed to be? Isn't exploring places and doing silly things (with not much downside) part of growing up and learning?

When I was 14 I just jumped on a bus with "Halifax" on the front without realising it would take nearly 2 hours from Leeds instead of the usual hour.
When I was 12 I had been used to just using busy stops so a bus sailed straight past me asi hadn't put my arm out and I was delayed by half an hour.
Neither happened again.

 

[mayneway]

Who'd have thought it? Youngsters actually using the bus to go to new places and families going for days out.

Not quite the marauding hordes of feral yoof that were being predicted at the beginning of the thread.

I’m a driver in Manchester and it’s been a nightmare. Kids causing havoc in the bus station then jumping on my bus to cause more havoc, constantly ringing the bell and being a nuisance.

On another occasion three very young girls came down halfway along a route and asked if I went somewhere totally different. When I said no they all started crying because they were lost - then it becomes of them getting to their destination being my responsibility.

Then there’s the ‘estate kids’ who get one at one stop and off at the next just because they can.

Yeah it’s a roaring success!

 

[BuhSnarf]

I’m a driver in Manchester and it’s been a nightmare. Kids causing havoc in the bus station then jumping on my bus to cause more havoc, constantly ringing the bell and being a nuisance.

On another occasion three very young girls came down halfway along a route and asked if I went somewhere totally different. When I said no they all started crying because they were lost - then it becomes of them getting to their destination being my responsibility.

Then there’s the ‘estate kids’ who get one at one stop and off at the next just because they can.

Yeah it’s a roaring success!

However, from experience, this happens even when the kids have to pay a fare? This behaviour is also portrayed by those over the age of 15. Again from a small proportion of 'youths.'

There is definitely a trend on this forum to tar all young people with this brush of them being bad.

 

[Deerfold]

I’m a driver in Manchester and it’s been a nightmare. Kids causing havoc in the bus station then jumping on my bus to cause more havoc, constantly ringing the bell and being a nuisance.

I've seen both in Manchester before this scheme - Indeed there was a mass brawl in the bus I was on once. There's a small minority of ruffians there.

On another occasion three very young girls came down halfway along a route and asked if I went somewhere totally different. When I said no they all started crying because they were lost - then it becomes of them getting to their destination being my responsibility.

Did you ask where they were going when they boarded?

Then there’s the ‘estate kids’ who get one at one stop and off at the next just because they can.

Yeah it’s a roaring success!

In many areas it does seem to be, as shown by quite a few of the previous replies

 

[mayneway]

However, from experience, this happens even when the kids have to pay a fare? This behaviour is also portrayed by those over the age of 15. Again from a small proportion of 'youths.'

There is definitely a trend on this forum to tar all young people with this brush of them being bad.

We’ve had the ‘our pass’ scheme here for several years where 16-18 year olds get free travel with their pass and it’s never been a problem, but allowing younger kids completely ‘free’ travel was never going to work. It’s not tarring everyone with the same brush it’s simply dreading pulling up to a stop where you just know kids will board and cause problems.

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Did you ask where they were going when they boarded?

They got on and seemed fairly confident they knew where they were going.

 

[BuhSnarf]

We’ve had the ‘our pass’ scheme here for several years where 16-18 year olds get free travel with their pass and it’s never been a problem, but allowing younger kids completely ‘free’ travel was never going to work. It’s not tarring everyone with the same brush it’s simply dreading pulling up to a stop where you just know kids will board and cause problems.

Not disputing in some areas that there will be some "nare do wells", but it is tarring everyone with that brush as most under 16s are actually absolutely fine yet you're saying you "know they will cause problems."

 

[mayneway]

Not disputing in some areas that there will be some "nare do wells", but it is tarring everyone with that brush as most under 16s are actually absolutely fine yet you're saying you "know they will cause problems."

Not sure where you are from but here in Manchester virtually every bus station in Greater Manchester has issues most nights with teenagers causing anti social behaviour, it’s become so bad in some areas that TFGM have had to employ outside security firms to patrol bus stations, Rochdale and Bury are two prime examples.
Allowing these people a free for all on the buses just makes the problem worse.

Yes some will use it sensibly and not cause issues but the bad ruin it for the good.

A better way would have been for the scheme to allow free travel with accompanying adult.

 

[johncrossley]

Manchester is just different for some reason. See my earlier post. Anti-social behaviour seems to be a more accepted part of the culture there compared to London and the south generally.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Not sure where you are from but here in Manchester virtually every bus station in Greater Manchester has issues most nights with teenagers causing anti social behaviour, it’s become so bad in some areas that TFGM have had to employ outside security firms to patrol bus stations, Rochdale and Bury are two prime examples.
Allowing these people a free for all on the buses just makes the problem worse.

Yes some will use it sensibly and not cause issues but the bad ruin it for the good.

A better way would have been for the scheme to allow free travel with accompanying adult.

But we're talking about allowing free travel, they can hang out in bus stations already without paying. A small proportion of teenagers cause anti social behaviour and they do whether the bus is free or chargeable. To take away this benefit from all teenagers because of just a few bad ones seems unfair.

Maybe we should stop all middled aged people getting on a bus because in my experience so many of them play Facebook reels on full volume on their phone, or maybe we should not allow anyone on a bus who owns a phone because a lot of people who own phones tend to annoy everyone on the bus by having a conversation for the full journey, maybe we shouldn't have men be bus drivers as a lot of them seem grumpy and rude whereas the women are nearly always cheerful....? Can't make rules based on the worst of each group.

 

[overthewater]

Can't make rules based on the worst of each group.

Any proper rules should only apply to the worse group anyways. I doubt mayneway would be able to explain how kids accompanying by adult would be possible in alot of situations like going to school.

I'm glad a lot of people and kids have benefited from this scheme, but something has to be done to resolve this particle minority that is causing trouble..

The fact it keeps on appearing means there is issues, I don't think anyone is against trying to sort out anti social behaviour, but trying to explain that point seem to get lost in the fog. The Scheme has to work but it need to fixed.

 

[mangad]

Serious question. Are the problems any worse than they are any other year? Because that seems to be the assumption. Yet we have always long school holidays, and we as a country have systematically destroyed things for children and teenagers to do and places for them to go because they're deemed to "cost too much". There's long been nothing for teenagers to do in the summer holidays. What did I do as a teenager? i went out on buses to random places! Frankly I'm finding it hard to imagine there's been any substantial change.

 

[Mark L]

Manchester is just different for some reason. See my earlier post. Anti-social behaviour seems to be a more accepted part of the culture there compared to London and the south generally.

Have you been on a bus in London when the schools tip out? It’s like exercise time in the local borstal!

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Serious question. Are the problems any worse than they are any other year? Because that seems to be the assumption. Yet we have always long school holidays, and we as a country have systematically destroyed things for children and teenagers to do and places for them to go because they're deemed to "cost too much". There's long been nothing for teenagers to do in the summer holidays. What did I do as a teenager? i went out on buses to random places! Frankly I'm finding it hard to imagine there's been any substantial change.

So did I but we paid for it and therefore attached a value to the service as we had foregone the ability to do something else with the money (like buy an ice cream!).

Offering any service for free is not a good idea.

 

[johncrossley]

Have you been on a bus in London when the schools tip out? It’s like exercise time in the local borstal!

But he's talking about the school holidays. What really surprises me when visiting Manchester is how bad things can get with just a few kids at a time. I've probably been on thousands of bus and tube journeys in London and maybe 50 bus and tram journeys in Manchester but I've seen more anti-social behaviour in Manchester. It's crazy how different it is.

 

[Mark L]

But he's talking about the school holidays. What really surprises me when visiting Manchester is how bad things can get with just a few kids at a time. I've probably been on thousands of bus and tube journeys in London and maybe 50 bus and tram journeys in Manchester but I've seen more anti-social behaviour in Manchester. It's crazy how different it is.

In my experience of buses in London it’s just as bad, particularly in the suburbs. Free travel has, of course, been available for some years in London to holders of a ZIP card.

 

[py_megapixel]

Offering any service for free is not a good idea.

That's quite the blanket statement!!

 

[Mark L]

That's quite the blanket statement!!

Providing things for free creates a sense of entitlement and takes responsibility away from individuals. It encourages waste and misallocation of resources since people are happy to consume things for which they would not be prepared to pay the cost and do not place a value on.

 

[Trainman40083]

Providing things for free creates a sense of entitlement and takes responsibility away from individuals. It encourages waste and misallocation of resources since people are happy to consume things for which they would not be prepared to pay the cost and do not place a value on.

With that thought, it will be interesting to see what happens when normal fares return. After all, when the fare cap went from £2 to £3, people saw a big fare increase, totally ignoring the original fare.

 

[Mark L]

With that thought, it will be interesting to see what happens when normal fares return. After all, when the fare cap went from £2 to £3, people saw a big fare increase, totally ignoring the original fare.

The increase was cited by First Group in its last financial update as a reason for a fall in passengers. When (if?) the cap ends and fares return to commercial levels the impact could be catastrophic for the industry particularly if there is no phasing out of the cap.

 

[Trainman40083]

The increase was cited by First Group in its last financial update as a reason for a fall in passengers. When (if?) the cap ends and fares return to commercial levels the impact could be catastrophic for the industry particularly if there is no phasing out of the cap.

I recall Nottingham City Transport saying that the cap increase saw a 5% drop.

 

[GusB]

Not sure where you are from but here in Manchester virtually every bus station in Greater Manchester has issues most nights with teenagers causing anti social behaviour, it’s become so bad in some areas that TFGM have had to employ outside security firms to patrol bus stations, Rochdale and Bury are two prime examples.
Allowing these people a free for all on the buses just makes the problem worse.

That's not specifically a problem with free bus travel, though. If there was more for kids to do such as sports activities, youth clubs etc. they'd be less inclined to hang around places like bus stations. Of course that opens up a new can of worms in itself (and one best discussed elsewhere on the forum).

Yes some will use it sensibly and not cause issues but the bad ruin it for the good.

A better way would have been for the scheme to allow free travel with accompanying adult.

So we're back to collective punishment again. Some kids cause trouble therefore all kids must face restrictions because of it.

Manchester is just different for some reason. See my earlier post. Anti-social behaviour seems to be a more accepted part of the culture there compared to London and the south generally.

Do you have any factual evidence to back this claim up?

Any proper rules should only apply to the worse group anyways. I doubt mayneway would be able to explain how kids accompanying by adult would be possible in alot of situations like going to school.

I'm glad a lot of people and kids have benefited from this scheme, but something has to be done to resolve this particle minority that is causing trouble..

The fact it keeps on appearing means there is issues, I don't think anyone is against trying to sort out anti social behaviour, but trying to explain that point seem to get lost in the fog. The Scheme has to work but it need to fixed.

The fact that what keeps appearing? If you're referring to anti-social behaviour then a small minority will engage in this regardless of whether they have to pay for the bus or not. Who are you expecting to sort out this behaviour? Do you want a security guard on every bus - at what cost and who pays for it? We could have an increased police presence, but again this has a cost and resources are stretched as it is.

I'd also question whether certain behaviour is actually anti-social or if it's just kids being kids. You say that trying to explain your point gets lost in the fog - perhaps that's because it really isn't as big a problem as you constantly make it out to be.

In any case, we will only ever hear about the anti-social behaviour because "Group of polite teens make seven mile bus journey without causing bother to anyone" doesn't make the headlines. For every case of ASB that we hear about, how many journeys are made without incident?

Providing things for free creates a sense of entitlement and takes responsibility away from individuals. It encourages waste and misallocation of resources since people are happy to consume things for which they would not be prepared to pay the cost and do not place a value on.

Presumably you'll be in favour of scrapping free travel for senior citizens and people with disabilities too?

 

[johncrossley]

Do you have any factual evidence to back this claim up?

Only my experiences over several trips over the last 30+ years. Maybe I'm just unlucky. I'm in favour of this scheme overall but I can see why people in Manchester and some other cities might have reservations.

 

[mayneway]

That's not specifically a problem with free bus travel, though. If there was more for kids to do such as sports activities, youth clubs etc. they'd be less inclined to hang around places like bus stations. Of course that opens up a new can of worms in itself (and one best discussed elsewhere on the forum).

You’re missing the point completely. Kids for years have gathered and hung around at bus stations and bus stops for years, I don’t see the attraction myself, but by suddenly allowing free travel on all buses means every time they get fed up at said bus stop or station they board a bus and use it as somewhere to congregate and cause issues.
Issues relate to playing loud music, smoking, damaging the bus - the list goes on.

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Do you have any factual evidence to back this claim up?

Are bus stations elsewhere in the country heavily flanked in the evening by security guards and travel safe officers like they are in Manchester?

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Providing things for free creates a sense of entitlement and takes responsibility away from individuals. It encourages waste and misallocation of resources since people are happy to consume things for which they would not be prepared to pay the cost and do not place a value on.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. I’ve not no issue with any teenager who has used the scheme to travel between points sensibly with no issues, but sadly what I’ve witnessed is as you say some self entitlement, getting on at one stop and off at the next with a smirk ‘because they can’!

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However, from experience, this happens even when the kids have to pay a fare? This behaviour is also portrayed by those over the age of 15. Again from a small proportion of 'youths.'

From your experience as a driver or a passenger?
My take on it is simple. When teenagers get on and pay the fare or have a pass, if they are unruly the threat of them being removed from the vehicle normally stops any negative behaviour.
At the moment while things are ‘free’ all you get is ‘you can’t kick us off as we can stay on as long as we want and do as we want as it’s free’.

As someone as said above - it’s self entitlement that some, not all, sadly abuse!

 

[yorkie]

My son has had quite a few days out with his mates, not going far, just rides out with with Hodgsons and Procters that he wouldn’t have done otherwise. It’s added a bit of interest - some new shops and parks to check out. Ironically, the one negative experience he’s had was with a North Yorkshire Council service whose driver was determined not to let them on, telling him they weren’t entitled to free travel, then that they were but had to have a parent with them

What age were they? Did the driver think they were too young or did they not understand the rules? And did they relent or have to get a later bus? I'd suggest writing to the operator.