Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[Bletchleyite]

unless they've been changed there are exactly two tables on a 350/2 northern don't run first class remember.

There are exactly two tables yes (in the former first class, I had forgotten about that) but there are loads of facing bays. I don't think it'll be chaos just as it wasn't chaos when WMT worked them, more likely is that people don't sit there as they think it is first class, only really commuters and regulars know it isn't, though personally I never sat there as the seats hurt my back.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Does anyone know what’s going to happen with Manchester to Blackpool?

 

[Dspatula]

If it weren't for the driving training I can't help but think sending 16 350s east side would be the better option probably have to modify platform 4 at Skipton and Shipley is the only one where it looks they might foul the junction not my area but compared to Salford Crescent it looks better.

Does anyone know what’s going to happen with Manchester to Blackpool?

nothing has been said officially beyond 5 starting in south Manchester at the end of 2027 but if the 350s are all west side they'll have to go on the Blackpool's at some point, unless it becomes a mix of 331/0 and /1s which would be unpleasent but doable.

 

[skyhigh]

If it weren't for the driving training I can't help but think sending 16 350s east side would be the better option probably have to modify platform 4 at Skipton and Shipley is the only one where it looks they might foul the junction

4 car 333s (94m) already work those routes, so there would be no issue with 4 car 350/2s (81m).

 

[oic]

Actually very much the other way round. The commuters didn't like the 3+2 primarily facing seating (though legroom in the bays is first class level).

I stand corrected! Interesting that my assumption of as many seats as possible for commuters doesn’t hold up. Or is it the fact they’re facing rather than airline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand corrected! Interesting that my assumption of as many seats as possible for commuters doesn’t hold up. Or is it the fact they’re facing rather than airline?

Commuters generally prefer the privacy of airline seats unless wanting to work on a laptop I find. But it'll vary.

 

[Merle Haggard]

350/2s have facing seats without tables (except the ex First). The down side to this is that it's so easy for the anti-social to rest their shoes on the opposite cushion.
Possibly the otherwise suburban 730/0s have tables to prevent this, although in the Venn diagram where anti - social intersects agile some do.

Don't really understand the suggestion that the 6 seat bays are ideal for families because, in my experience, they were never completely vacant.

 

[bramling]

I stand corrected! Interesting that my assumption of as many seats as possible for commuters doesn’t hold up. Or is it the fact they’re facing rather than airline?

Commuters generally don’t like bays of 6. In British trains it is essentially impossible to provide enough space to accommodate six people without it being cramped, there’s also issues when people need to access belongings, and getting in and out.

It is however a myth that the middle seats aren’t used. This simply isn’t true - last to fill for sure, disliked for sure, but most (not all) people will use them in preference to standing.

3+2 isn’t all bad though. On a modestly loaded train, which is more common than the relative handful of trains where every seat is occupied, it means 5 people can occupy a set of 3+2 facing seats without having to sit both next to anyone and also with someone directly opposite. Whereas on a 2+2 layout this reduces to 4. So if you travel outside the high peak, 2+2 can feel more cramped.

 

[xotGD]

most (not all) people will use them in preference to standing.

Not what I see on 333s.

More will choose to stand rather than squeeze themselves into a middle seat. I take the seat, but sometimes you have to squeeze past a doorway full of standees in order to reach the vacant seats.

 

[Southend Rider]

Not what I see on 333s.

More will choose to stand rather than squeeze themselves into a middle seat. I take the seat, but sometimes you have to squeeze past a doorway full of standees in order to reach the vacant seats

 

[Dspatula]

4 car 333s (94m) already work those routes, so there would be no issue with 4 car 350/2s (81m).

I meant as 8 car formations at 163m to replace the 331s.

In a more fantastical world I'd have 34 east side divided into 16 3 car and 16 5 car sets run them all as 102m and 122m trains. Sending 331s and 333s west.
But given the amount that reformation and a descent refurb would cost you might as well get new trains.

 

[Geeves]

I guess if we knew time scales for the new stock it would be easier but it my mind the wires will be up before the new stock appears for the TPE stopper. That opens up the door to 350s and 331s becoming common user between both both the east side and west at least until the new order arrives.

There's no reason then why the 4 car 350s could not do both east and west local trains then as well the Huddersfield stopper, the York Stopper and the Wakefield jobs basically it would be able to be as useful as the 150 regards to train crew signing them.

You will be able to have electric trains easily able to do work on the ECML too with easy transfers from Manchester and Leeds just like the DMU stock does daily

Wires going up all the way Between Manchester and York will be a massive opportunity

 

[biggerisbetter]

I guess if we knew time scales for the new stock it would be easier but it my mind the wires will be up before the new stock appears for the TPE stopper. That opens up the door to 350s and 331s becoming common user between both both the east side and west at least until the new order arrives.

There's no reason then why the 4 car 350s could not do both east and west local trains then as well the Huddersfield stopper, the York Stopper and the Wakefield jobs basically it would be able to be as useful as the 150 regards to train crew signing them.

You will be able to have electric trains easily able to do work on the ECML too with easy transfers from Manchester and Leeds just like the DMU stock does daily

Wires going up all the way Between Manchester and York will be a massive opportunity

I am not sure there are sufficient units for the 350/2s to be used on post TRU electric services if all 323s are replaced which surely there will be by then. 37 350/2s to replace 34 323s and with the Wigan to Stalybridge and potentially making the Golborne all day, this would likely utilise the additional units even with greater reliability. I am not sure there are many services that are currently operated with 6-car 323s or 331s that could be comfortably replaced with a 4-car (and with shorter carriages) 350. Likely that the post TRU electric services will have to wait for the new stock in my view.

 

[RUK]

Given that Class 350/2s are an imperfect solution to replacing the Class 323s, not being able to keep to timetable, with the decision forced to replace the Class 323s sooner than originally anticipated by necessity, what will the Class 350/2s be replaced by in turn? Will Northern’s new fleet procurement be extended to provide a replacement for them?

 

[py_megapixel]

Given that Class 350/2s are an imperfect solution to replacing the Class 323s, not being able to keep to timetable

How do you know they can't keep to the timetable?

 

[Nym]

Given that Class 350/2s are an imperfect solution to replacing the Class 323s, not being able to keep to timetable, with the decision forced to replace the Class 323s sooner than originally anticipated by necessity, what will the Class 350/2s be replaced by in turn? Will Northern’s new fleet procurement be extended to provide a replacement for them?

And how do you know the decision is forced?

Northern isn't exactly having the best time trying to look after the 323s.

 

[The Planner]

How do you know they can't keep to the timetable?

They couldnt on the Hadifeld runs.

 

[Iskra]

They couldnt on the Hadifeld runs.

I’m not sure exactly what’s planned, but is it possible that 323’s remain on that line only; and the existing fleet is cannibalised to keep a small number of the class running?

 

[Class 466]

I’m not sure exactly what’s planned, but is it possible that 323’s remain on that line only; and the existing fleet is cannibalised to keep a small number of the class running?

No, all 323s are being replaced by 350s like for like basically.

 

[p1ash]

How will the 8 x 20m cars fit on the 6 car x23m platforms (c.143m). Will both doors nearest the front & rear cabs not open with SDO?

It’s one full coach that is generally overlength on a 6x323 platform?

 

[172007]

How will the 8 x 20m cars fit on the 6 car x23m platforms (c.143m). Will both doors nearest the front & rear cabs not open with SDO?

It’s one full coach that is generally overlength on a 6x323 platform?

350's have unit deselect not door deselect. Niave decision when ordering the fleet with hindsight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure exactly what’s planned, but is it possible that 323’s remain on that line only; and the existing fleet is cannibalised to keep a small number of the class running?

More likely 331s will be used if 350s can't keep time. Or the timetable will be changed. If the paths onto and off the line are immutable you can gain time by making the service a "rounder" i.e. going Manchester-Glossop-Hadfield-Manchester one half hour and Manchester-Hadfield-Glossop-Manchester the other - this does halve the service between the two but that is probably fairly minor in terms of passenger numbers.

In short there are ways to make it work.

 

[Zomboid]

350's have unit deselect not door deselect. Niave decision when ordering the fleet with hindsight.

I didn't know about 350s, but 450s have full SDO now, so it's clearly possible to fit desiros with the technology. I would imagine that it'll be fitted to the 350s if needed for the routes they'll run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

350's have unit deselect not door deselect. Niave decision when ordering the fleet with hindsight.

Not really given that they were expected to see their days out on the WCML and only didn't due to some financial jiggery pokery by an avaricious leasing company. UDS works fine for that use case (99% of the time it was just going down from 12 to 8, though there are a very small number of 4 car platforms e.g. Bushey down fast and Bletchley P6* plus I think one or two of the Birmingham end local stations), it's simple and it was one of the earlier installations of any form of selective door opening.

* I have boarded a 12 car 350 on that platform, but it may well be the only time an EMU ever called there in service - it doesn't look like the layout would permit it now unless the unit came from the south or from the TMD (traction maintenance depot rather than the carriage sidings), and 350s don't generally live there.

 

[em81]

If you consider some of the short platforms on the Liverpool to Birmingham they aren't much longer than a 4 car set, so full SDO wouldn't result in the doors opening on 7 carriages instead of 4.

 

[stevieinselby]

They couldnt on the Hadifeld runs.

Then don't put them on the Hadfield runs if they can't manage it. Swap in 331s onto the Tameside Line from a line that isn't so tightly timed or doesn't have as many stops and so can cope with the slightly longer door cycle and put 350s on that route instead.

 

[Liam L]

And how do you know the decision is forced?

Northern isn't exactly having the best time trying to look after the 323s.

There was a reason why Soho ones were always better, one depot with one fleet which made everything easier.

 

[p1ash]

Northern are attempting to run 25 diagrams out of 30 available units - 83% availability.
The issue seems to be the 3 / 4 units stopped for transformers that is causing current issues?
And if c.3 are stopped for transformers - is this a trend for the entire fleet?
That said the units that have new transformers eg., 323243 must be OK for the future?

 

[Liam L]

Northern are attempting to run 25 diagrams out of 30 available units - 83% availability.
The issue seems to be the 3 / 4 units stopped for transformers that is causing current issues?
And if c.3 are stopped for transformers - is this a trend for the entire fleet?
That said the units that have new transformers eg., 323243 must be OK for the future?

The units with transformer issues will start to slowly come back soon I believe.

"Earliest release is 218 end of August, then 242 early Sept followed by 229.."

 

[The Planner]

Then don't put them on the Hadfield runs if they can't manage it.

Which is what is happening.