Ending short on an advance ticket?

[Howardh]

If a ticket is cheaper (say) London to Glasgow is cheaper - due to peak/restrictions/whatever; than London to Preston I've always assumed because it's a specific ticket between two station on one train, that would be not allowed to alight at Preston. That's is your ticket was inspected there, I presume.

If it is not allowed, what if the same pax also bought a single, Leyland to Preston, valid that day on their phone, and got off the Avanti (maybe popped to the loo/have a coffee just to make it unclear which train you got off) and then showed the Leyland ticket at the gate? Is there any offence there?

 

[AlterEgo]

If a ticket is cheaper (say) London to Glasgow is cheaper - due to peak/restrictions/whatever; than London to Preston I've always assumed because it's a specific ticket between two station on one train, that would be not allowed to alight at Preston. That's is your ticket was inspected there, I presume.

If it is not allowed, what if the same pax also bought a single, Leyland to Preston, valid that day on their phone, and got off the Avanti (maybe popped to the loo/have a coffee just to make it unclear which train you got off) and then showed the Leyland ticket at the gate? Is there any offence there?

There's no offence in either case. Do you mean whether it's a contravention of the TnCs of the ticket?

 

[Howardh]

There's no offence in either case. Do you mean whether it's a contravention of the TnCs of the ticket?

Yes, think that's what I'm trying to say!

If it's perfectly legit, would a split-ticketing site work out that it's cheaper to "travel" further and offer that ticket with the provision that you alight at your chosen station? The reason I'm asking is I read a post on twitter that a London - Preston ticket was cheaper if booked London to Motherwell (advance) and the pax alighted at Preston!

I've found the post; https://x.com/i/trending/2089404999730409570

Avanti West Coast explained the gap stems from peak-time rules applying to the Preston leg, but off-peak for the full Motherwell journey, with Advance tickets locked to the specific service and no breaks allowed. Passengers online joked about getting off early at Preston, where barriers are often absent, though others warned it risks penalty fares and ticket invalidation. The incident highlights ongoing frustrations with UK rail's complex pricing across operators and routes, where longer trips sometimes beat shorter ones in cost.

This is Scotland (@_thisisscotland) on X

Why are @AvantiWestCoast ripping people off like this? If I want to get a ticket from London to Preston, they’re charging £190.00. But if I book the same departing train all the way to Motherwell (much further) it’s £76. I can then just get off at Preston anyway a save £120?!

x.com

Why are
@AvantiWestCoast
ripping people off like this? If I want to get a ticket from London to Preston, they’re charging £190.00. But if I book the same departing train all the way to Motherwell (much further) it’s £76. I can then just get off at Preston anyway a save £120?!

Picture of suggested fares showing the both.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, think that's what I'm trying to say!

If it's perfectly legit, would a split-ticketing site work out that it's cheaper to "travel" further and offer that ticket with the provision that you alight at your chosen station? The reason I'm asking is I read a post on twitter that a London - Preston ticket was cheaper if booked London to Motherwell (advance) and the pax alighted at Preston!

It isn't legit.

If caught that person would be liable to an excess fare up to the value of the cheapest appropriate ticket which does allow break of journey.

 

[Watershed]

Even if you present a different ticket at any Preston blockade (it doesn't have barriers) you are still finishing your journey short on an Advance ticket. That isn't permitted and means you are liable to pay an excess (the difference between the cost of that Advance and the cheapest walk-up ticket permitting break of journey).

Whilst failing to pay that excess isn't automatically an offence, I can certainly see how breaking your journey when not permitted and then buying another 'throwaway' ticket to try and cover it up could be alleged to amount to intent to avoid payment. Which would render it an offence under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Accredited journey planners can't offer overdistance tickets, as far as I'm aware,and certainly couldn't encourage a breach of the ticket terms and conditions.

 

[Precipice]

You can buy a non-Advance overdistance, though you'd have to find it yourself.

Going by BR Fares, nobody should be buying the 190 GBP advance to Preston. While the standard Off-Peak to Preston (84.90) isn't valid at that time on Wednesday (restriction comes up as NO DEP FROM EUS PRE 0926 OR 1501-1844 Mon-Thurs), the Off-Peak to Carlisle, with morning restrictions only, comes to 110.80. I'm no fares expert, so there may be a better Off-Peak option to somewhere else on a ticket that allows break of journey, with a change to another train you don't actually make use of, but this one for a later stop on the same service shaves off nearly 80 pounds.

Is it good that passengers to interim stations have to shop around for alternate locations to which they're not going to save money for the same journey? Or that otherwise you pay more for making less use of a service? No. But here we are.

 

[Hadders]

Starting/finishing short with an Advance ticket is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the policy of the Rail industry is that no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).

The problem here is that there is clear intent to avoid a higher fare and therefore an excess fare could be charged.

 

[Sonic1234]

The problem here is that there is clear intent to avoid a higher fare and therefore an excess fare could be charged.

And the problem with that it is determined by the gateline staff in the moment. The reality could range from "no problem mate" without even a cursory glance at the ticket to a jobsworth throwing the book at you.

 

[Hadders]

And the problem with that it is determined by the gateline staff in the moment. The reality could range from "no problem mate" without even a cursory glance at the ticket to a jobsworth throwing the book at you.

Agreed, but we do have a responsibility to point out the official position rather than what you might get away with.

 

[Starmill]

It is not permitted.

What would be permitted would be if you, say, found a cheaper ticket to Lancaster, and then got a lift or parked there instead. Lots of people used to do that, even if they lived close to Preston station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can buy a non-Advance overdistance, though you'd have to find it yourself.

Going by BR Fares, nobody should be buying the 190 GBP advance to Preston. While the standard Off-Peak to Preston (84.90) isn't valid at that time on Wednesday (restriction comes up as NO DEP FROM EUS PRE 0926 OR 1501-1844 Mon-Thurs), the Off-Peak to Carlisle, with morning restrictions only, comes to 110.80.

And has break of journey restrictions on the outward, thus preventing this.

 

[saismee]

I wouldn't try it at a major station, but you would probably get away with deciding to finish short at a rural station perfectly fine. I did this with my friend at Llandudno Junction, stopping short of Bangor. We continued our journey on a walk-up ticket the next day.

Intentionally avoiding paying the correct fare is wrong, and you may be able to find an advance split that achieves the same savings legitimately. For a journey from A to C, this would be A->B Advance Single, combined with a B->C walk-up fare (or vice versa).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not permitted.

What would be permitted would be if you, say, found a cheaper ticket to Lancaster, and then got a lift or parked there instead. Lots of people used to do that, even if they lived close to Preston station.

Or you go to Lancaster and back by train. If using an Off Peak Return you only need to do that in one direction as the break of journey restriction is only on the outward. Presumably this is considered sufficient that at least business travellers (at whom the outrageous price of Anytime fares are aimed) won't bother with getting up an hour earlier to save the company money, but does still leave that loophole (of physically going to Lancaster) for any leisure traveller who wouldn't travel at all if the railway was only offering them a fare of 400 quid return.

See also splitting at MKC to avoid evening peak restrictions out of Euston. Yes, you can do it, but it limits you significantly on which trains can be used (with a few not so subtle "pick up only" trains northbound, primarily to stop commuters flooding the Avanti services but also stopping that split unless you travel to MKC on a different train) and so most people who aren't paying themselves (which is the majority of people travelling in the peaks other than on Fridays and on season tickets or short distance journeys where Anytimes aren't priced quite so punitively) won't do it.

 

[blimmo]

Or you go to Lancaster and back by train. If using an Off Peak Return you only need to do that in one direction as the break of journey restriction is only on the outward. Presumably this is considered sufficient that at least business travellers (at whom the outrageous price of Anytime fares are aimed) won't bother with getting up an hour earlier to save the company money, but does still leave that loophole (of physically going to Lancaster) for any leisure traveller who wouldn't travel at all if the railway was only offering them a fare of 400 quid return.

While I understand this is a way of doing market segmentation it just seems so completely ridiculous. "Yes we want you to travel somewhere you don't want to go (taking up a seat on our trains) and we will then offer you a cheaper ticket". I really hope the railway can find a way to do that segmentation another way that doesn't seem quite so ridiculous.

 

[Starmill]

Or you go to Lancaster and back by train. If using an Off Peak Return you only need to do that in one direction as the break of journey restriction is only on the outward. Presumably this is considered sufficient that at least business travellers (at whom the outrageous price of Anytime fares are aimed) won't bother with getting up an hour earlier to save the company money, but does still leave that loophole (of physically going to Lancaster) for any leisure traveller who wouldn't travel at all if the railway was only offering them a fare of 400 quid return.

See also splitting at MKC to avoid evening peak restrictions out of Euston. Yes, you can do it, but it limits you significantly on which trains can be used (with a few not so subtle "pick up only" trains northbound, primarily to stop commuters flooding the Avanti services but also stopping that split unless you travel to MKC on a different train) and so most people who aren't paying themselves (which is the majority of people travelling in the peaks other than on Fridays and on season tickets or short distance journeys where Anytimes aren't priced quite so punitively) won't do it.

I didn't want to muddy the waters with that option given the OP asked what they asked earlier! But yes, of the course you are quite correct, this is perfectly acceptable, as long as, when using a ticket which forbids break of journey, you actually do the double-back and don't try pretend you did it when you didn't. I know that this seems utterly ludicrous, and it absolutely is, but if you're going to play this game then thems the breaks!

 

[JonathanH]

It is perhaps surprising that the Preston / Lancaster differentiation has lasted this long without the restrictions being applied for destinations further north.

It presumably stems from when trains were slower prior to 2008. I can imagine that some of the easement is about allowing people to reach the Lake District before the cut off for small guesthouses. The ongoing challenge is that the afternoon restriction ends at 1845, but the trains are at 1830 and 1930.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It is perhaps surprising that the Preston / Lancaster differentiation has lasted this long without the restrictions being applied for destinations further north.

Do break of journey restrictions not still apply to Off Peak Singles from London Euston to, say, Oxenholme Lake District?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I understand this is a way of doing market segmentation it just seems so completely ridiculous. "Yes we want you to travel somewhere you don't want to go (taking up a seat on our trains) and we will then offer you a cheaper ticket". I really hope the railway can find a way to do that segmentation another way that doesn't seem quite so ridiculous.

I don't think it's deliberate market segmentation, just potentially a reason why (post-franchising*) they aren't in a hurry to close these well known "loopholes", as those using them, because of the inconvenience they cause, would likely not switch to paying the full Anytime fare but rather wouldn't travel at all.

* They used to be part of the franchise agreement, but post-COVID this probably isn't relevant any longer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2026 ==

Do break of journey restrictions not still apply to Off Peak Singles from London Euston to, say, Oxenholme Lake District?

Yes, but nothing stops you actually physically going there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2026 ==

It is perhaps surprising that the Preston / Lancaster differentiation has lasted this long without the restrictions being applied for destinations further north.

It presumably stems from when trains were slower prior to 2008. I can imagine that some of the easement is about allowing people to reach the Lake District before the cut off for small guesthouses. The ongoing challenge is that the afternoon restriction ends at 1845, but the trains are at 1830 and 1930.

It might also be down to (as you say) the limited number of trains from Euston in the evening that go that far north.