GWR accused of disrupting Wales-England train links by Welsh Government

[Caaardiff]

Surely increasing capacity on existing services should be the starting point.

Which GWR are unable to do.
The answer to most of this would be for GWR to run their Bristol regional services to Swansea/Carmarthen instead of Cardiff. But that is also never going to happen.

 

[Snow1964]

Surely increasing capacity on existing services should be the starting point.

There are lots of shortish trains using the route

eg doing a search through Patchway from say Midday to 3pm today gives :
1 x no car train (it was cancelled)
4 x 3car trains
2 x 4car trains
10 x 5car trains
4 x 9car trains
3 x 10car trains

So averaging 2 trains per hour of only 3-4 cars, not the best use of scarce line capacity

 

[JonathanH]

There are lots of shortish trains using the route

eg doing a search through Patchway from say Midday to 3pm today gives :
1 x no car train (it was cancelled)
4 x 3car trains
2 x 4car trains
10 x 5car trains
4 x 9car trains
3 x 10car trains

So averaging 2 trains per hour of only 3-4 cars, not the best use of scarce line capacity

That may be the case, but TfW adding 2 car trains into the mix isn't any better.

What we don't know is whether the three car trains were adequate for the time of day. They could well have been. On that matter, it is perhaps unfortunate that additional services between Bristol and Westbury mean shorter trains between Cardiff and Bristol, but do GWR take any steps to ensure that demand is spread appropriately between the longer and shorter trains between Cardiff and Bristol? I guess not, as they don't seem to have advance quotas any more despite the fares nominally existing.

 

[Kilopylae]

The answer to most of this would be for GWR to run their Bristol regional services to Swansea/Carmarthen instead of Cardiff. But that is also never going to happen.

With the Lumo and the new TfW services, would there be terminating capacity at Carmarthen? (I don't know the answer, happy to be told that there is!)

 

[John R]

With the Lumo and the new TfW services, would there be terminating capacity at Carmarthen? (I don't know the answer, happy to be told that there is!)

There will be no new TfW services west of Cardiff. The Bristol services will be extensions of existing services that currently terminate at Cardiff.

 

[Jez]

There will be no new TfW services west of Cardiff. The Bristol services will be extensions of existing services that currently terminate at Cardiff.

And the vast majority of TFW services now continue beyond Carmarthen to either Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock or Fishguard. Very little apart from a few evening services terminate in Carmarthen.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Surely increasing capacity on existing services should be the starting point.

West of Swindon, Newbury or Cardiff (depending on the line), GWR's expansive network has no overhead wires at all. There are only so many trains with a diesel engine to go around, as evidenced by GWR trying to get 175s in traffic and other diesel operators (Northern, TfW, etc.) also desperately trying to put together a service with whatever stock they have. So the only realistic way of increasing capacity on services in the short term would be to cancel half of them and strengthen the rest. I don't think that would be popular either!

 

[Snow1964]

West of Swindon, Newbury or Cardiff (depending on the line), GWR's expansive network has no overhead wires at all. There are only so many trains with a diesel engine to go around, as evidenced by GWR trying to get 175s in traffic and other diesel operators (Northern, TfW, etc.) also desperately trying to put together a service with whatever stock they have. So the only realistic way of increasing capacity on services in the short term would be to cancel half of them and strengthen the rest. I don't think that would be popular either!

Wales probably didn't order enough bimodes either (and possibly too many 2car rather than 3car) diesel trains. So at some stage going to need to be more.

But short term have a good point, with GWR there are too few services which can be operated by the electric fleet throughout, and need a bimode, or are forced the use the overstretched aging diesel fleet.

Without wanting to drift off topic, electric transport must be on minds of Welsh leadership. Because today they have announced a 10 year tax exemption for EV chargers in Wales

The move, announced today by the Cabinet Minister for Finance, intends to remove a potential barrier to investment at a critical stage in the growth of electric vehicles.

The 100% non-domestic rates relief will support the continued rollout of the necessary infrastructure to help drivers make the switch, particularly in areas currently underserved by charging points.

In the current financial year, local authorities will be asked to award the relief using their discretionary powers. Where relevant, this will allow relief to be backdated to the start of the 2024-2025 financial year.

Regulations will be brought forward later this year to place the relief on a statutory footing from 2027-2028 to 2035-2036. Subject to Senedd approval, this will give ratepayers and local authorities certainty in the years ahead.

The whole idea of encouraging electric cars, but then having a policy of diesel trains is illogical, so my gut feeling is about 50 miles of extra electrification and BEMUs are churning through the system. Not going to speculate on where or when.

Wales plugs in to a decade of rates relief to power up EV charging | GOV.WALES

Electric vehicle charging bays and forecourts across Wales will benefit from full non-domestic rates relief until 2036.

www.gov.wales

 

[Caaardiff]

Wales probably didn't order enough bimodes either (and possibly too many 2car rather than 3car) diesel trains. So at some stage going to need to be more.

But short term have a good point, with GWR there are too few services which can be operated by the electric fleet throughout, and need a bimode, or are forced the use the overstretched aging diesel fleet.

Without wanting to drift off topic, electric transport must be on minds of Welsh leadership. Because today they have announced a 10 year tax exemption for EV chargers in Wales

The whole idea of encouraging electric cars, but then having a policy of diesel trains is illogical, so my gut feeling is about 50 miles of extra electrification and BEMUs are churning through the system. Not going to speculate on where or when.

Wales plugs in to a decade of rates relief to power up EV charging | GOV.WALES

Electric vehicle charging bays and forecourts across Wales will benefit from full non-domestic rates relief until 2036.

www.gov.wales

Is it worth having bi-mode trains when only a very small part of the network has wires? With no sign ahead of more of it getting them.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Is it worth having bi-mode trains when only a very small part of the network has wires? With no sign ahead of more of it getting them.

If you're willing to invest in electrification, even if discontinuous, then that improves the case for bi-modes.

 

[Harpo]

Is it worth having bi-mode trains when only a very small part of the network has wires? With no sign ahead of more of it getting them.

Seems to work for GA. I’ve even noticed units working the (unelectrified) branches stood in Norwich with their pans up.

 

[John R]

Is it worth having bi-mode trains when only a very small part of the network has wires? With no sign ahead of more of it getting them.

The 756s are tri-mode, which makes them more useful in terms of operating in a non-diesel mode. Especially if some carefully chosen isolated sections of wiring are added.

 

[Snow1964]

Is it worth having bi-mode trains when only a very small part of the network has wires? With no sign ahead of more of it getting them.

It depends on how realistic various proposals are, some of clearly not going to progress, and stay unfinanced, but my hunch is the 3 or 4 short electrifications might get somewhere soon.

The proposal I am talking about is the one to increase services with commuter trains as far west as Burry Port, and operate the Burns stations with services to Cheltenham and Bristol. Basically it involved BEMUs (not a diesel bimode). And from memory (can't find link to proposal) had 3-4 short electrification sections as battery recharge boosters. Whole lot was only something like 40-50 miles of wiring. I think it was Bridgend-Port Talbot area, Gowerton-Llanelli area, Severn Tunnel-Chepstow and I think Cardiff-Barry. Possibly another short bit I have forgotten. With the bimodes it allowed virtually everything staying east of Camarthen in South Wales to be partially electric. The services to Pembrokeshire would stay as 197s

I think the 3car 756s 231s are gaining batteries to make them trimode rather than bimode

The alternative is do nothing, and it's fairly obvious a train fleet sized pre-Covid isn't going to cut it for next 5, 10, 20 years due to changes in employment and travel patterns that weren't foreseen at the time of fleet approval and ordering.

 

[John R]

Aren’t all the 756s already trimode?

 

[Caaardiff]

The proposal I am talking about is the one to increase services with commuter trains as far west as Burry Port, and operate the Burns stations with services to Cheltenham and Bristol. Basically it involved BEMUs (not a diesel bimode). And from memory (can't find link to proposal) had 3-4 short electrification sections as battery recharge boosters. Whole lot was only something like 40-50 miles of wiring. I think it was Bridgend-Port Talbot area, Gowerton-Llanelli area, Severn Tunnel-Chepstow and I think Cardiff-Barry. Possibly another short bit I have forgotten. With the bimodes it allowed virtually everything staying east of Camarthen in South Wales to be partially electric. The services to Pembrokeshire would stay as 197s

I think the 3car 756s are gaining batteries to make them trimode rather than bimode

The alternative is do nothing, and it's fairly obvious a train fleet sized pre-Covid isn't going to cut it for next 5, 10, 20 years due to changes in employment and travel patterns that weren't foreseen at the time of fleet approval and ordering.

Cardiff - Cheltenham will soon be operated by 231's, which are apparently getting converted to bi-mode.

There are no TFW eastbound services starting from Carmarthen that only go as far as Cardiff. Most services start at Milford Haven, Fishguard Harbour or Pembroke Dock. So the suggestion battery boosters from Carmarthen East will be absolutely useless without ripping up the timetable for West of Carmarthen services, which will not go down well with those communities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2026 ==

The 756s are tri-mode, which makes them more useful in terms of operating in a non-diesel mode. Especially if some carefully chosen isolated sections of wiring are added.

Which are used on CVL services, which has large sections of it electrified.
The mainline has very little of it electrified on TFW's network.

 

[Snow1964]

There are no TFW eastbound services starting from Carmarthen that only go as far as Cardiff. Most services start at Milford Haven, Fishguard Harbour or Pembroke Dock. So the suggestion battery boosters from Carmarthen East will be absolutely useless without ripping up the timetable for West of Carmarthen services, which will not go down well with those communities.

Yes, my poor wording, should have said west of Pembrey and Burry Port, which I understand will be a reversing point of some local trains from Cardiff direction. I think it's based on where built up conurbation ends so extra commuter services won't go further west. Kidwelly onwards to Pembrokeshire branches will stay similar to now.

If these proposed shorter (to only Pembrey) trains eventually get merged into the Burns stations and possible extra services to Bristol / Cheltenham isn't clear, because the various proposals seem to come out in bits, not as a long term network

 

[CdBrux]

If those paths have already (now) been committed elsewhere they can make as much fuss as they like- it’s then a simple “You were told they were only available for a year and chose to ignore us”.
Is the pinch point Cardiff - Severn Tunnel (ie only a problem till the reliefs get fettled up for passenger trains) or STJ to Filton (which is more intractable)?

Political reality is not the same as actual fact. Welsh government (nationalist) will say 'this is a Welsh railway and we want to run trains on it to Bristol, not London ... who are Westminster to overrule us...?'
(Ignoring that they need to ask UK government permission to use non Welsh tracks into Bristol ... but a 12 months demo will show this is OK)
It's all about creating division and grievance

 

[gazthomas]

We really should have a "Welsh Government accused of disrupting Wales-England train services" thread given the often appalling service delivery by TfW

 

[tutacre]

Once Lumo is more established in Carmarthen - presumably there is scope to at least extend them to the likes of Fishguard/Pembroke/Milford if suitable demand and branch capacity exists, even if it is on a Summer Saturday type arrangement. It seems like the TfW paths may exist now because Lumo isn't currently using them - and certainly won't give them up - but Welsh Government was supportive of the open access application - so may well be prepared to support enhancements to the Lumo services in the longer term, if these TfW paths aren't viable later.

Nothing says Welsh Government / TfW can only enhance their own services - the greater good may be partnering with open access for some of the benefits. Wouldn't even need the DfT in most cases.

 

[halfajob]

TFW drivers have been route learning Cardiff to Temple meads all stops. They stated it was a half hourly service being implemented.

 

[tfw756rider]

TFW drivers have been route learning Cardiff to Temple meads all stops. They stated it was a half hourly service being implemented.

Does this mean that the Office of Rail and Road have approved Transport for Wales Rail's Bristol service application? Have they been doing it in 197s?

 

[positron]

It can't be half hourly? They applied for a 2 hourly service.

 

[zwk500]

TFW drivers have been route learning Cardiff to Temple meads all stops. They stated it was a half hourly service being implemented.

Does this mean that the Office of Rail and Road have approved Transport for Wales Rail's Bristol service application? Have they been doing it in 197s?

The half-hourly all-stations service would be for the new stations on the relief lines, and AIUI no application for those paths has yet been submitted.

The objections to capacity for a service every 2 hours gives you some idea of the challenges that a 2 trains per hour service will face.

 

[Jez]

Does this mean that the Office of Rail and Road have approved Transport for Wales Rail's Bristol service application? Have they been doing it in 197s?

The paths are in RTT so it will be going ahead as far as I know.

 

[Bald Rick]

The paths are in RTT so it will be going ahead as far as I know.

Paths being in RTT does not mean access rights have been granted.

 

[positron]

I can't see anything on the ORR website, but given DfT allowed TfW to submit the application and Network Rail have given a positive signal for a year of service it would be odd for the ORR to reject it entirely. GWRs objections are irrelevant if network rail says there's capacity because the revenue abstraction issue shouldn't apply (it's not open access and there's a revenue sharing agreement in place).

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Have they been doing it in 197s?

In GWR cabs at the moment, believe there is a plan to do some in 197’s once instructors are trained up. Learning Parkway for diversion purposes as well.

 

[positron]

I noticed on the ORR application they plan to run one train Monday to Saturday via Bristol parkway for route retention so they can terminate there if temple meads is shut.

Feels like extra reversal each day is a lot for route retention but idk how they plan to staff them perhaps they do just need that many to keep everyone up to scratch.

For route knowledge is it traction dependent? If you train in the GWR cabs do you need to do much to then drive the 197s (provided you already know the 197 traction knowledge).

 

[thelongestroad]

It will be a "return" to Bristol for some drivers, who will have signed the route before when some FGW/GWR services were driven by drivers "leased" from TfW.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Are there industry rules that say GWR have to help out with route learning? Feels a bit surprising given the objections that they would essentially be facilitating the services by helping with route learning given those objections.