davetheguard
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And there, I suspect, we have it in a nutshell. This is why I don't buy a newspaper, or subscribe to a newspaper website.
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Train drivers’ decades-long ticket fraud ‘cost taxpayer millions
- Thread starter deltic
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And there, I suspect, we have it in a nutshell. This is why I don't buy a newspaper, or subscribe to a newspaper website.
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Swedenorer
Member
And you really can't have managers knocking up dubious documents in a highly sensitive traffic commodity area either I would have thought. The supposed loss is a red herring here.
trundlewagon
Member
Aye, the most fraudulent thing I can see is that staff were presumably meant to pay for their own travel to medicals, etc!
No, the company needed to pay. Staff aren't going to be paying to go to their own work-mandated medicals.
trundlewagon
Member
Oh yes, you're right.
Back to the original point that it's daft that travel to a medical isn't a legitimate use of a duty travel card in the first place then.
Would revenue staff be in any position to be aware that there was anything illegitimate going on? It sounds like the drivers were given some kind of document saying that they were travelling to a place to collect a train - there's no reason for the revenue staff to be aware that the train didn't exist is there?
When it started, it sounds like it was effectively the government owned company defrauding private companies, which is very much something the Telegraph would be concerned about (and that everyone should be concerned about).
Correct. They were being given a diagram, which is basically a sheet detailing the day's work with timings for the driver. These were fake, in order that the company didn't have to pay the TOC fares to send its drivers to medicals or meetings.
It doesn't appear that the drivers gained anything here and it is a bit poor for the headline to frame it as a fraud perpetrated by them.
Either way, it is daft that this sort of travel wasn't available on a duty pass or similar. There are various bearer passes floating around the industry for staff to use with reciprocal goodwill between TOCs. I am a bit surprised they didn't have one.
You're absolutely right. If they did look closely, although technically there could have been some way to check, there would be absolutely nothing obvious or suspicious.
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Exactly. I practice, carrying freight drivers on duty, even if technically they should have been provided with full price tickets, still doesn't come with an actual cost to it.
Though as DRS is a FOC they can't really reciprocate with passes, presumably they would have to pay towards providing it for their staff?
They didn't benefit, but if what we're told is true then they appear to have been complicit in it, and if it's true that they asked the managers to create the fake diagrams then they were actively involved. It's actually hard to see what the benefit was for anyone involved really - I'm certainly not going to commit fraud purely for the benefit of my employer*. The only thing I can think of - and this is pure speculation - is that maybe the senior managers were on some kind of bonus scheme where their bonus was increased for cutting costs. On the driver side, might they have had to pay for their travel out of pocket and then claim the expense back afterwards potentially with some delay in getting the repayment? Even if so, it seems like a small reward for the risk involved.
Agreed.
*For avoidance of doubt, I'm not going to commit fraud at all!
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"If any of your drivers have a parcel that needs moving from Bradwell to Sellafield, feel free to stick it in the cab"?
TPE, Avanti, CrossCountry and others usually hand out duty bearer cards ("representative of First Trenitalia West Coast Limited with company ID" or similar) to other employers mutually. So it's possible that they haven't given the FOCs any because they can't get one back.
thealexweb
Member
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The whole Telegraph article is viewable on AOL for free.
www.aol.com
Revealed: Train drivers’ decades-long ticket fraud ‘cost taxpayer millions’ - AOL
Public sector workers have been using fake documents to travel by train without paying in a decades-long fraud, The Telegraph can disclose.
www.aol.com
fishwomp
Established Member
Exactly - "dishonest rail company saves taxpayers millions of pounds on taxi fares"
(or, "This one trick the rail operators don't want you to know" if we're being modern)
.. but even under a nationalized passenger rail system, isn't that still going to be the case - at least for those freight companies that are not government owned.
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Why can't DRS drivers be given free travel only on electric trains powered by reactors
At BR in the 1980s-90s, staff who needed to travel regularly often had a personal duty pass, valid for any work-related journey, apart from travel to work at normal home station. I recall admin offices also had anonymous 'bearer' passes available which an employee could book out for an occasional work trip, including medicals, training, etc, but for a simple out-and-back journey, they'd prefer to write out a single-use personal blue edmondson-style card ticket manually.
They were very strict about not using any of these duty passes for residential or leisure purposes, for benefit-in-kind tax calculation, I understand; those senior managers who had go-anywhere personal leather or medallion passes, which were valid for leisure travel, paid dearly in tax for the benefit.
Regular Residential travel was handled separately through privilege seasons. ISTR there was a free mileage threshold, and then you topped up at priv rate if you lived further away. There was no doubt some misuse, but inspectors were good at spotting it, and you risked losing all your privilege travel facilities if caught.
In early RT days, still largely under the same rules, a colleague, returning from a trip away, was travelling into work from a different direction than usual. He was not unreasonably using a dated staff travel box to travel a route not covered by his usual residential season, which was valid that day. Had he shown his season at the impromptu station exit check, no one would have been any the wiser, but he presented the dated travel card instead, and being a familiar face, was immediately reported for using a leisure ticket for residential travel to work. He lost facilities for 12 months for that. His union rep advised him not to fight it.
They were very strict about not using any of these duty passes for residential or leisure purposes, for benefit-in-kind tax calculation, I understand; those senior managers who had go-anywhere personal leather or medallion passes, which were valid for leisure travel, paid dearly in tax for the benefit.
Regular Residential travel was handled separately through privilege seasons. ISTR there was a free mileage threshold, and then you topped up at priv rate if you lived further away. There was no doubt some misuse, but inspectors were good at spotting it, and you risked losing all your privilege travel facilities if caught.
In early RT days, still largely under the same rules, a colleague, returning from a trip away, was travelling into work from a different direction than usual. He was not unreasonably using a dated staff travel box to travel a route not covered by his usual residential season, which was valid that day. Had he shown his season at the impromptu station exit check, no one would have been any the wiser, but he presented the dated travel card instead, and being a familiar face, was immediately reported for using a leisure ticket for residential travel to work. He lost facilities for 12 months for that. His union rep advised him not to fight it.
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whoosh
Established Member
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A bit poor? The newspapers deliberately chose the headline as they do anything to slag off train drivers at every opportunity.
It is daft. The wording on a Duty Travel Pass is that it is 'only valid when the holder is carrying out a legitimate operational role, including attending training at the Driver Academy.'
A diagram must be produced, or contingency details, or a letter confirming attendance at the Driver Academy.
Whilst a medical is a thing to send a member of staff to by train, other staff who aren't traincrew would've been given a ticket by the company, and as a medical isn't 'operational' like moving a train or positioning (travelling 'pass' or 'deadheading') to/from moving a train, then traincrew also should be given a ticket.
Someone in the office has decided that as money has been paid out already (as Duty Passes have to be paid for), then to issue a diagram to 'pass' traincrew to go to medical is a clever workaround - perhaps justifying it as traincrew need a medical to be 'operational'.
"Millions" is absolutele garbage. Typical newspaper lies and exaggeration.
The headline figures when newspapers present as fact the burden on the taxpayer of TfL dependant passes is another example, when they base those figures on everyone entitled to one using it for the most expensive journey possible 364 days a year on the tube, with a bus journey beforehand as well to get to the tube station. When in actual fact, a considerable number of TfL workers don't even live in London and so their dependants are only using their entitled travel facilities for the odd day out - maybe something likely approaching 360 days of the claimed 364. A considerably lower cost than claimed.
See also Conservative politicians.
43096
On Moderation
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It doesn't matter if it is "daft" or not. Those are the rules. DRS (and/or its staff) have deliberately sought to avoid them - that is fraud. Pre-Covid that was defrauding the train operating companies i.e. private companies. Post-Covid it is between one Government department and another.
It should also be noted that by DRS not paying what they should they were gaining an advantage (albeit a small one) over other freight operators (always presuming this hasn't been a widespread industry practice).
Stossgebet
Member
Another thing people (especially those working in the media) won't understand, is how ridiculous some staff travel rules are.
for example... not being allowed to use your duty pass to open ticket barriers, but having to use your non-contractual leisure staff travel pass (when on duty) instead!
for example... not being allowed to use your duty pass to open ticket barriers, but having to use your non-contractual leisure staff travel pass (when on duty) instead!
spyinthesky
Member
It is quite possible that this may be a whistleblower case. Someone not gaining what others were.
Snow1964
Established Member
Although they were clearly complicit if the terms and conditions of their staff passes didn't allow it.
As with many ticketing irregularities on this forum, not understanding the rules of tickets, passes and railcards isn't an excuse. And unlike ordinary passengers getting a ticket, they were almost certainly issued with full set of pass rules when they got the passes. Not bothering to read it is not an acceptable excuse.
Similarly have silly pass rules is not an acceptable excuse either. Rules exist, shouldn't be ignored.
They weren't using their passes though. They were getting free travel, as they were entitled to do, to medical appointments which were a mandatory part of their work. Their employer was the one fiddling by giving them bogus diagrams instead of.paying for the tickets; yes this is clearly dodgy but I don't really see how it is fair that the drivers are front and centre of the article other than to further an agenda.
The Telegraph article says "Ticket revenue is paid directly to the government, which then hands a portion of it back to train companies for covering their running costs" - whilst that is true now, it was not the case from 1996 to 2020 when the revenue went direct to the private TOCs. So the loss to the 'tax payer' is going to be far less than claimed, if the extend of this is correct. In fact as NTS is actually owned by the UK Government's Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA), the practice would actually have saved the UK Tax Payer, not cost them!
The claim is that drivers were (for whatever reason) requesting the managers to provide them with the fake diagrams. If - and I stress if - this is true then they were absolutely perpetrating the fraud. At best, by travelling using what they undoubtedly knew to be fake diagrams they were going along with it.
Were they aware that diagrams had to involve driving a train to be 'legitimate'? Perhaps they were of the view that simply having a diagram legitimised their travel. Therefore they requested a diagram and once it was received, they considered that they were travelling validly.
Given the amount of myths and misinformation that is out there regarding tickets and travel facilities it isn't hard to see how a culture of this being the norm could have developed.
As others have pointed out, not sure what reciprocal benefit could be offered by DRS.
They're not exactly going to offer other TOC traincrew a ride on a Crewe-Sellafield!
riceuten
Member
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"Public sector workers" and the Telegraph, says it all really. I assume if it had been private sector workers, it would have been OK
Were they aware that presenting a diagram showing a service that doesn't exist in order to gain free travel was not legitimate? I'm going to come down firmly on the side of "yes" to that.