Great British Railways - First Train in New Livery

[m79900]

No, it was being applied before they got back - they’ve stopped applying it at refurb for the specific reason of new GBR logos being applied across DFTO fleets in the coming months.

Surely that begs the question why are they not getting put in GBR livery?

 

[Russel]

1. Probably, like mentioned above. I've been told by a connection that the livery shown in that earlier screenshot from the launch deck is subject to tweaks but that's the general gist of it, so don't expect anything hugely different. That said, there could be customisations. They're very aware of what people are saying online.

I pointed that out months ago, I have no connection whatsoever with it, but it was fairly obvious, as with anything like this, that what is displayed during the PR launch will be subject to change and will evolve over time, despite what some on here were saying...

That it's just absolutely, utterly awful?
By all means call it GBR, but at least come up with a decent livery that isn't a flag tastelessly plastered all over trains.

This is very subjective and for everyone that hates it, someone else will love it.

For what it's worth, I think it looks pretty good and I was very sceptical about slapping the Union Jack on anything that moves at first.

 

[RUK]

The roof over the cab for the IET mock-up is black, and the rest of the roof, and the whole roof for the Desiro U.K., is dark grey. Wouldn’t light grey reflect heat more, and help keep the trains cooler, presuming that white wasn’t chosen to hide dirt?

 

[A60stock]

Fair enough on the single livery being applied to all units. It will be strange that an Intercity Pendolino service from London to Scotland will be branded the same as a commuter service run such as South Eastern. If you ask me, it gives a perception that may downgrade the intercity type service!

 

[Cardiff123]

This is very subjective and for everyone that hates it, someone else will love it.

For what it's worth, I think it looks pretty good and I was very sceptical about slapping the Union Jack on anything that moves at first.

It would make more sense to plaster the George Cross all over trains that operate wholly within England, and the union Jack on cross-border services. But the DfT would never go for that, as the UK Government has a complete inability to say England when an organisation only (or 90%) serves England.

The only time you'll see the UK Government owning the English flag is if England are in a football tournament. The rest of the time, anything that is 90% or 100% English, is "British" in the mind of Westminster politics.

Hence why we now have GBR and the Union Jack plastered all over trains managed by the DfT in London.

Gareth Dennis has just done a very good Railnatter on what the organisation and liveries of GBR should actually be, including a distinctly branded Intercity sector of GBR.

We've had a change in leadership for the country, but not for transport, and that means that the creation of GBR continues unaltered. In an episode of two halves, we'll first look at what the IDEAL railway organisation looks like, and how it fits into the wider transport picture. In the second half, we'll talk to Jo Grew, strategy director for GWR and NR Western, to understand what integrated operations like in practice, and remind ourselves: what is this all for?

 

[Russel]

It would make more sense to plaster the George Cross all over trains that operate wholly within England, and the union Jack on cross-border services. But the DfT would never go for that, as the UK Government has a complete inability to say England when an organisation only (or 90%) serves England.
The only time you'll see the UK Government owning the English flag is if England are in a football tournament. The rest of the time, anything that is 90% or 100% English, is "British" in the mind of Westminster politics.
Hence why we now have GBR and the Union Jack plastered all over trains managed by the DfT in London.

Gareth Dennis has just done a very good Railnatter on what the organisation and liveries of GBR should actually be, including a distinctly branded Intercity sector of GBR.

The George Cross would be an awful base for a livery, we've had 20 years of experimenting with predominantly white liveries and none of looked any good simply because of how much they show dirt and brake dust.

With respect to Gareth Dennis, I have no idea who he is, so I'm not watching a video over an hour long just to find out what colour he thinks trains should be painted.

 

[irish_rail]

Fair enough on the single livery being applied to all units. It will be strange that an Intercity Pendolino service from London to Scotland will be branded the same as a commuter service run such as South Eastern. If you ask me, it gives a perception that may downgrade the intercity type service!

It's not that strange, we currently have London to Penzance, Plymouth and Swansea IETs in the exact same livery as the Sprinters working the Gunnislake and Looe branch lines.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind everyone that this thread is to discuss the actual livery itself and not to offer up alternatives. That can be done in this thread:

Great British Railways livery: Alternative suggestions/variations

Fair play to the Government for not wasting oodles of taxpayers cash employing a design firm. I mean, if I can knock this design up in 2 minutes then anyone is a design consultant. This has got a bit of everything for everybody :lol: :D

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks

 

[Mike Machin]

Can I remind everyone that this thread is to discuss the actual livery itself and not to offer up alternatives. That can be done in this thread:

Great British Railways livery: Alternative suggestions/variations

Fair play to the Government for not wasting oodles of taxpayers cash employing a design firm. I mean, if I can knock this design up in 2 minutes then anyone is a design consultant. This has got a bit of everything for everybody :lol: :D

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks

The fact that a professional design consultancy hasn’t been used really shows. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the overall concept, but the execution is extremely clumsy and lacks the finesse and polish that could be achieved with more careful consideration by a team with the knowledge, training, aptitude and experience in the holistic application of a well-structured corporate identity programme.

 

[800001]

The fact that a professional design consultancy hasn’t been used really shows. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the overall concept, but the execution is extremely clumsy and lacks the finesse and polish that could be achieved with more careful consideration by a team with the knowledge, training, aptitude and experience in the holistic application of a well-structured corporate identity programme.

I was told (don't know how true), that the livery was created LNER design team.
They all have knowledge and training in creating liveries and other marketing material.

 

[BuhSnarf]

The fact that a professional design consultancy hasn’t been used really shows. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the overall concept, but the execution is extremely clumsy and lacks the finesse and polish that could be achieved with more careful consideration by a team with the knowledge, training, aptitude and experience in the holistic application of a well-structured corporate identity programme.

Fairly sure if an expensive design company was used people would just be moaning at how much money was wasted on 'artsy' types who don't know the industry.

Just look at all the flack Best Impressions gets.

 

[GoneSouth]

Just look at all the flack Best Impressions gets.

But they do look great!

 

[BuhSnarf]

But they do look great!

To some.... others think they are an abomination that has ruined buses.

When it comes to design, you can't win as someone will dislike whatever you make.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was told (don't know how true), that the livery was created LNER design team.
They all have knowledge and training in creating liveries and other marketing material.

Fairly sure one of them is the guy who used to be independent but has gone to work for LNER, having done e.g. the whole WMT branding package? I guess he's seen that it's likely GBR, being much bigger than a TOC, will have an internal competency rather than contracting at a much higher cost, and decided to ensure himself a role.

 

[vuzzeho]

The team was, at first, a few people from LNER and some from DfT. Now GBR Design is starting to expand as the rollout expands further, moving from strategy into delivery. GBR is going nationwide.

 

[Leyland Bus]

The team was, at first, a few people from LNER and some from DfT. Now GBR Design is starting to expand as the rollout expands further, moving from strategy into delivery. GBR is going nationwide.

Perhaps they can now get their act together and steer station signage (et al) into a coherant rollout instead of the hotch-potch cum gung-ho approach we have now...

 

[vuzzeho]

Perhaps they can now get their act together and steer station signage (et al) into a coherant rollout instead of the hotch-potch cum gung-ho approach we have now...

That's the idea.

 

[irish_rail]

Perhaps they can now get their act together and steer station signage (et al) into a coherant rollout instead of the hotch-potch cum gung-ho approach we have now...

Indeed, I've noticed many WCML station running in boards have large double arrow logos alongside the place names. It looks good, and this is in my opinion the way forward. Yet on the Western I haven't seen a single running in board with double arrows. A consistent approach is needed, what we have currently is a mess, and the sooner the heritage GWR branding is gone the better (though the green livery on 80x will be missed!).

 

[diligentdave]

Surely that begs the question why are they not getting put in GBR livery?

Because as it currently stands, no one has done any work on a full GBR livery for the Northern fleets, therefore I assume that some GBR decals will be applied, very simple.

Engineering hasn't been done to change the NTL livery with anything else and the financials hasn't even been discussed.

Not to mention that the actual GBR livery as already applied to some units in full is not actually PRM compliant, therefore fails current standards...

 

[StephenHunter]

When NSE started, they just slapped decals on the front.

 

[TransportHub]

Not to mention that the actual GBR livery as already applied to some units in full is not actually PRM compliant, therefore fails current standards...

Interesting, which bits aren't PRM compliant? I'm surprised it has been implemented in a non compliant way

 

[442Haz]

What I’m more annoyed about personally is not necessarily the stock which IMHO looks ok. It should be toned down with plain blue intermediate coaches however with maybe the darker shade of blue shaped in the middle to break it up a bit. But what really gets me is the complete lack of any imagination for station infrastructure. Very plain, boring no consistent plan beyond signage which in any event is very underwhelming. Creating GBR is far beyond the trains, it’s about creating a uniform bright and cheery station environment from start to finish.

Network SouthEast was a fine example of this. South West Trains and Southern too.

 

[Farigiraf]

What I’m more annoyed about personally is not necessarily the stock which IMHO looks ok. It should be toned down with plain blue intermediate coaches however with maybe the darker shade of blue shaped in the middle to break it up a bit. But what really gets me is the complete lack of any imagination for station infrastructure. Very plain, boring no consistent plan beyond signage which in any event is very underwhelming. Creating GBR is far beyond the trains, it’s about creating a uniform bright and cheery station environment from start to finish.

Network SouthEast was a fine example of this. South West Trains and Southern too.

I do think that something more creative than Rail Alphabet 2 on a white background could've been explored. Most countries in the continent have more or less got it standardised, with white text on a blue background, though the font varies by country. Functional but not boring.

However, in terms of the infrastructure itself, there are a lot of factors at play that aren't just a lack of creativity. For one, smaller new stations are designed on a very tight budget or else it doesn't get funded - that's why so many new stations are essentially glorified bus shelters. Those that do get some money are actually quite excellent and creative - Cambridge South and Beaulieu Park have lots of character (compared to most other 21st century buildings at least) and Liverpool Baltic will also be quite nice. For middle-ground stations, which are rare nowadays (as projects are either the bare minimum or multi-billion pound, with no inbetween), Network Rail does have a design manual that acts as a template for such stations. It's quite good: open-air (with waiting shelters), accessible, lots of green space, plenty of multimodal integration, yet it doesn't feel soulless. It just never gets used.

Some examples from the manual, using the fake 'Widmerpool' station name:

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Aside from the very tedious and repetitive “It could have been so much better if they did X Y Z” posts — does anyone actually have any news or updates on a new unit receiving the livery?

 

[physics34]

Aside from the very tedious and repetitive “It could have been so much better if they did X Y Z” posts — does anyone actually have any news or updates on a new unit receiving the livery?

steve white hints that a SE unit is close

 

[Russel]

Not to mention that the actual GBR livery as already applied to some units in full is not actually PRM compliant, therefore fails current standards...

In what way is it non-PRM compliant?

Surprising that something like that could be overlooked.

 

[442Haz]

In what way is it non-PRM compliant?

Surprising that something like that could be overlooked.

Probably a lack of gap between the red shape at the ends and the doors, it’s madness in all honesty as all the doors are correctly grey. How we coped before I don’t know

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

steve white hints that a SE unit is close

My first thought is it's most likely to be a 375, which won't be too exciting considering we already have a 387.

Mind you, it's possible they've vinyled a 376 while doing the interior up.

A Javelin would be nice.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Probably a lack of gap between the red shape at the ends and the doors, it’s madness in all honesty as all the doors are correctly grey. How we coped before I don’t know

I think the thing is that some people didn't "cope" before. I know from personal experience that for those with impaired vision things like this are incredibly important. Just because it's "fine" for normal people doesn't mean some people will struggle / be put off using.

 

[mq90]

I saw a GBR-liveried train at Selhurst depot when on a Thameslink down to Haywards heath on 25th July. Sadly couldn't get phone out or remember what train it was.