Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[Wyrleybart]

Which are neither available nor compliant.

But there theoretically are some further up in Lancashire !!!
Yeah OK

 

[AndrewE]

I doubt EMR are going to pay out any extra money to hire in trains from spot hire companies.

Or to pay for extra trains to be leased, or to pay for training staff on them, or pay for overtime to cover people whilst they are released from their normal duties for training on them.

No doubt they are collecting penalty payments from Hitachi, and probably just want to hold on tight and keep collecting until their contract comes to an end and GBR take over. This could be a reason it's taken so long before an emergency timetable has been put in place.
The service is dire, there's been a tragic but unrelated accident, and no amount of money shelled out will improve the public perception of EMR enough in the short time it has left. It's not as though it's a suffering brand that given investment will grow in the long term - it has the clock ticking on it, and isn't worth the outlay.
I doubt DfT want to give any money to EMR to hire in extra trains, spot hire or leased. Politically, swooping in as GBR in a year or two will naturally align with the 810 reliability improvement curve. They hope! "Look how much better the trains are now!"
I'm sure British Rail was run down before privatisation in similar fashion, funnily enough!

but surely running trains to an adequate timetable is in the job description? If you have a main line out of London sitting around doing almost nothing when the timetabled train service has been decimated, then the "operator" should take it on the chin and accept that their bottom line will suffer.
That may only be in the short term, of course, as I would hope that the company that has dropped them in the ordure will be taken to court and EMR's shareholders would get belated recompense.

 

[800001]

but surely running trains to an adequate timetable is in the job description? If you have a main line out of London sitting around doing almost nothing when the timetabled train service has been decimated, then the "operator" should take it on the chin and accept that their bottom line will suffer.
That may only be in the short term, of course, as I would hope that the company that has dropped them in the ordure will be taken to court and EMR's shareholders would get belated recompense.

The operator may want to hire additional trains in, however it is Dft who control the purse strings and if they say no, there is nothing that EMR can do about it.

And no hitachi won't be taken to court.

They have a contract between themselves, EMR and the leasing company.
They will have penalties for failing to meet that, the last figure I recall reading somewhere on this forum is that Hitachi have paid out over £50 million pounds so far in penalties payments for late delivery.

There will be other penalties in the contract covering performance, faults etc

 

[AndrewE]

The operator may want to hire additional trains in, however it is Dft who control the purse strings and if they say no, there is nothing that EMR can do about it.

And no hitachi won't be taken to court.

They have a contract between themselves, EMR and the leasing company.
They will have penalties for failing to meet that, the last figure I recall reading somewhere on this forum is that Hitachi have paid out over £50 million pounds so far in penalties payments for late delivery.

There will be other penalties in the contract covering performance, faults etc

and sod the travelling public...

 

[800001]

and sod the travelling public...

Yes exactly that basically.

 

[Russel]

and sod the travelling public...

That's been the general attitude for a number of years now, across the rail industry.

Instigated by the DFT/Treasury I should probably add.

 

[Wyrleybart]

That's been the general attitude for a number of years now, across the rail industry.

Correct. It is DfT's modus operandi.
Whiles Elstow was closed there were plans in place to fetch some ERS stock from Gt Yarmouth with a 66 and couple a 57 on the other end at Leicester to operate shuttles. DfT wouldn't allow it to be funded.

If this were a decent UK rail industry there would have been a select handful of peak hour 222 services to run across from Bedford to Bletchley to connect with Euston trains.

"The cost of everything and the value of absolutely nothing"

 

[whoosh]

That's been the general attitude for a number of years now, across the rail industry.

Instigated by the DFT/Treasury I should probably add.

Remember Charles Horton standing down from GTR for the 2018 timetable meltdown? When did GTR find out the routes it was supposed to be running? Was it in good enough time to train everybody with the required route knowledge?
Was it ALL Charles Horton's fault?

But he's the only one who resigned.



Is this EMR debacle ALL Will Roger's fault?

But he's the only one who's resigning.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The thing is, 15 years ago it wouldn’t have even been a question. An essential service is offered, and must be delivered. People have to be moved about the country, and if it’s an expense or an inconvenience for the operator, then so be it. They have a duty to provide a service!

Maybe not a thing 15 years ago but certainly would have been 35 years ago under BR.

BR were certainly far from being immune to emergency timetables due to stock shortages.

The debacle towards the end of LCHS on Waterloo to Exeter springs to mind.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Former Transport Secretary

And convicted criminal

 

[londonmidland]

I think Etches Park and their staff are overwhelmed. The smart choice would be to separate the 222s and 810s, with the former being maintained at Central Rivers, where they also maintain the Voyagers, with the latter remaining at Etches Park, so Hitachi only have to focus on one Intercity rolling stock type.

 

[Iskra]

I think Etches Park and their staff are overwhelmed. The smart choice would be to separate the 222s and 810s, with the former being maintained at Central Rivers, where they also maintain the Voyagers, with the latter remaining at Etches Park, so Hitachi only have to focus on one Intercity rolling stock type.

Retraining an entire depot’s maintenance staff for a fleet that’s departing, is not very smart.

Much smarter for Scotrail to keep their HST’s in service longer, to allow 222’s to stay until 810’s can enter service reliably.

 

[D365]

Retraining an entire depot’s maintenance staff for a fleet that’s departing, is not very smart.

Notwithstanding that the Lumo Class 222s are based at Central Rivers.

 

[Iskra]

Notwithstanding that the Lumo Class 222s are based at Central Rivers.

…5 units is a bit different to doing all of them and would require many more shifts of maintainers, aside from the logistical and space constraints!

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think Etches Park and their staff are overwhelmed. The smart choice would be to separate the 222s and 810s, with the former being maintained at Central Rivers, where they also maintain the Voyagers, with the latter remaining at Etches Park, so Hitachi only have to focus on one Intercity rolling stock type.

erm no !!! You could argue that Alstom might be struggling to deliver the number of voyager diagrams for XC, especially as the six car Lumo 222s need to be split onto two roads in the shed designed for five coach units. Obviously CZ was designed to maintain the entire 78 unit fleet of Virgin voyagers notwithstanding the overnight outstablings at Craigentinny, Crofton, Longsight etc. At the moment there are six of those 78 units in store and CZ handle the major exams on 221142/3 and the 222/6s.

Hitachi just need to get on top of their game at Etches Park.

 

[AndrewE]

erm no !!! You could argue that Alstom might be struggling to deliver the number of voyager diagrams for XC, especially as the six car Lumo 222s need to be split onto two roads in the shed designed for five coach units. Obviously CZ was designed to maintain the entire 78 unit fleet of Virgin voyagers notwithstanding the overnight outstablings at Craigentinny, Crofton, Longsight etc. At the moment there are six of those 78 units in store and CA handle the major exams on 221142/3 and the 222/6s.

Hitachi just need to get on top of their game at Etches Park.

if Fujitsu's record over the Sub-postmaster scandal is anything to go by I wouldn't expect them to give a toss...
(See https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...names-cleared-following-long-campaign-265996/ and many other references.)
Fujitsu promised to help compensate the people who because of their software were convicted and ruined - even though they knew that it was faulty... As of yet they haven't come up with a penny, let alone face prosecutions for perjury. Are they in the "too big to fail" (or be punished) category?

 

[WideRanger]

if Fujitsu's record over the Sub-postmaster scandal is anything to go by I wouldn't expect them to give a toss...
(See https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...names-cleared-following-long-campaign-265996/ and many other references.)
Fujitsu promised to help compensate the people who because of their software were convicted and ruined - even though they knew that it was faulty... As of yet they haven't come up with a penny, let alone face prosecutions for perjury. Are they in the "too big to fail" (or be punished) category?

Hitachi and Fujitsu are not the same company.

 

[Teapot42]

Notwithstanding that the Lumo Class 222s are based at Central Rivers.

Are they actually doing that well? Twitter seems to suggest plenty of Lumo cancellations on the Stirling route.

 

[AndrewE]

Are they actually doing that well? Twitter seems to suggest plenty of Lumo cancellations on the Stirling route.

I don't know how often it happens, but https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=LF seems to say they have run all their trains today...

 

[anthony263]

Maybe after today see if Avanti can loan GWR a class 390 or two snd allow a paid of IETS to go to EMR

 

[yorksrob]

If "people who charter trains," can charter trains, why can't EMR charter trains.

Given that other TOC's have chartered trains in the past, it's not an unreasonable question to ask.

 

[800001]

If "people who charter trains," can charter trains, why can't EMR charter trains.

Given that other TOC's have chartered trains in the past, it's not an unreasonable question to ask.

Because Dft says no.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe after today see if Avanti can loan GWR a class 390 or two snd allow a paid of IETS to go to EMR

Because it's as easy as that, right?

 

[87015]

Because Dft says no.

So just for clarity, you are saying DfT did sign off the five figure sum for todays Pendo move and have absolutely turned down an EMR business case?

 

[800001]

So just for clarity, you are saying DfT did sign off the five figure sum for todays Pendo move and have absolutely turned down an EMR business case?

You know fine well that is not what I am saying and don't state I said things when I have not eg Pendo business case.

But if EMR want to hire additional rolling stock to assist with the current issues, that has to be signed off by dft.

And as EMR have stated that they are not going to source alternative stock, it's safe to say that dft have declined, or EMR have not asked as they no what the answer is.

TOCS can't even order pens or stickers without dft authorisation.

If they want to increase staff levels it's dft who sign it off etc etc

 

[AndrewE]

So just for clarity, you are saying DfT did sign off the five figure sum for today's Pendo move and have absolutely turned down an EMR business case?

please explain what this is?

 

[Iskra]

Beyond immediate hire ins, with crews provided too (presumably a very expensive way of doing things, with probably dubious results), wouldn’t all the other options make things worse in the short term? By, for example, taking crews away from regular services for training on alternative traction. If that is the case and EMR believe the problem will solve itself as more 810’s come online; It has the fortunate side effect of temporarily reducing subsidy at a time of funding freezes, and reduced commuter/business travel due to summer holidays. Then, the current situation of apparent inaction is entirely rational, if not pleasant or sustainable for those still travelling.

 

[liamf656]

please explain what this is?

Discussed here:

Pendolino at Paddington

Anyone know why according to RTT a Pendolino (390016) is scheduled into London Paddington today from West Ealing? Due in at 11.57.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AndrewE]

Discussed here:

Pendolino at Paddington

Anyone know why according to RTT a Pendolino (390016) is scheduled into London Paddington today from West Ealing? Due in at 11.57.

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks, that's more froth for social media then. As someone said over there, there must be more pressing problems that the top brass should be focussing on. Maybe they should get together and work out a way to make it clear to the travelling public why nothing is being done about the shortages of capacity countrywide... (apart from in Scotland?)

 

[anthony263]

Because it's as easy as that, right?

I know its a lot more than that. Eg GWR drivers and fitters would need training etc for starts was just throwing the idea out there.

Don't forget this is the DfT stranger things havw happened