Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[londonmidland]

Are there any locos which could haul the 222s? Is 'Thunderbird' style operation in passenger use actually permitted these days?

Maybe an option would be to in effect give up on maintaining the traction aspects of the 222s and just have them hauled, that way availability would be determined elsewhere.

Not that I’m aware of.

Even the Voyager family cannot drag 222s as they are electronically incompatible with each other.

They can only couple to each other mechanically, which means no communication or remote control between the two units.

 

[MargaretNoodle]

I would imagine there will be a lot of difficulty getting hauled 222s pathed through the southern MML. I think the best option is to see if Central Rivers can do some work on the 222s and possibly look at using the ex-avanti 221s - which I would like to happen and think is logical, but I'm sure it will turn out to be too difficult.

Am I right in thinking that there are a number of spare 360s each day? Maybe there is the possibility of splitting some services at Kettering/Market Harborough and running another 360 in its place south?

 

[Wyrleybart]

This problem isn't getting any better is it?
Get the new Transport Minister to request 2/3 or 4 Azuma 5 cars from LNER and get a couple of 225 sets to replace them on the ECML.
OK I do know it is not that simple but it is not totally unreasonable.

Admire your optimism !!!
The point though surely is that EMR have only lost five 222s so far. - admittedly 7 cars, although there may be longterm stopped 222s lying round "four shed".
Hitachi have delivered EMR up to six 810s a day so theoretically, unless Hitachi are not repairing the EMR fleet, there are enough units to run the service.

 

[43096]

Ex Chiltern mk3 sets are still available aren't they and can be used as they're sliding door.

EMR should just short term lease those and whack whatever locos they can get at on the front end as I'm pretty sure the ex Chiltern 68s have now been stripped of the capability to work with Mk3's.

Just think that through... You are wanting EMR to take on a completely different type of train, for which they have no certification, no crew knowledge, no maintenance knowledge. So that's on top of all the issues with the 222s, 810s and the RMT kicking off. They need it like a hole in the head.

 

[WesternLancer]

The only suitable fleet I can see being used is the spare Class 221s.

Although that still requires full fleet training and route clearing, as well as seeing if they actually move after being stored for so long - so it (probably) won’t happen.

Points well made.

It’s such a nonsense in the uk that we have sets of rollingcstock that means ideas like this get shoved in the too difficult bin for reasons you and others mention.

Any industry that actually wanted to win more business would get a grip on this stuff.

It exposes the complete farce of uk approach to both privatisation as well as govt involvement and nationalisation.
It drives one to despair.

Passengers aren’t interested in all the lame reasons and excuses. Genuine tho they are.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The only suitable fleet I can see being used is the spare Class 221s.

Although that still requires full fleet training and route clearing, as well as seeing if they actually move after being stored for so long - so it (probably) won’t happen.

I think the best option is to see if Central Rivers can do some work on the 222s and possibly look at using the ex-avanti 221s - which I would like to happen and think is logical, but I'm sure it will turn out to be too difficult

Agree with all this. Presumably EMR would need DfT approval which suggests that DfT are not yet motivated enough. Ie if it had been explored then. EMR could say (in PR speak) "we approached Alstom for them to work on our 222/provide us 221s but they don't have capacity/tried to rinse us".

The main principal of any proposal has to be that it doesn't add to Etches Park workload.

Using the stored 221s requires them being stored in a state that allows them to return to service quickly - not another GWR 175 scenario (I think this torpedoes 180s as it'd probably take a year to get them in service)
- a pool of suitably trained and available crew

Those two issues make me think Option 1 is paying Alstom to work on the 222 backlog.. Optional 2 is do nothing and have 6-12 months of the current farce. Don't really think there is an Option 3. Certainly none of the ideas that involve a zombie fleet of exhumed, life expired and unsuitable rolling stock seen credible to me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Agree with all this. Presumably EMR would need DfT approval which suggests that DfT are not yet motivated enough. Ie if it had been explored then. EMR could say (in PR speak) "we approached Alstom for them to work on our 222/provide us 221s but they don't have capacity/tried to rinse us".

The main principal of any proposal has to be that it doesn't add to Etches Park workload.

Using the stored 221s requires them being stored in a state that allows them to return to service quickly - not another GWR 175 scenario (I think this torpedoes 180s as it'd probably take a year to get them in service)
- a pool of suitably trained and available crew

Those two issues make me think Option 1 is paying Alstom to work on the 222 backlog.. Optional 2 is do nothing and have 6-12 months of the current farce. Don't really think there is an Option 3. Certainly none of the ideas that involve a zombie fleet of exhumed, life expired and unsuitable rolling stock seen credible to me.

If government wants to show that GBR is going to deliver a changed railway this is a golden opportunity to step in and show what could be done.
I doubt that this has even occurred to them however…

It’s only the East Midlands after all. Why bother. Even if it occurred to them.
GBR HQ in Derby yet??

 

[Teapot42]

It’s only the East Midlands after all. Why bother. Even if it occurred to them.

Maybe one factor that could bring some resolution is the fact the new Deputy PM is MP for Sheffield Heeley...

 

[WesternLancer]

Maybe one factor that could bring some resolution is the fact the new Deputy PM is MP for Sheffield Heeley...

You’d like to hope so!

 

[Killingworth]

Maybe one factor that could bring some resolution is the fact the new Deputy PM is MP for Sheffield Heeley...

Former Transport Secretary

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2026 ==

Using the stored 221s requires them being stored in a state that allows them to return to service quickly - not another GWR 175 scenario (I think this torpedoes 180s as it'd probably take a year to get them in service)
- a pool of suitably trained and available crew

In theory there are 6 stored 221s but haven't Cross Country applied to take at least some of them? When the DfT can get round to considering it, of course.

 

[WesternLancer]

In theory there are 6 stored 221s but haven't Cross Country applied to take at least some of them? When the DfT can get round to considering it, of course.

Would that be for xc to attach them to other units in service then run them with doors locked so no passengers can make use of them?

Dft presumably fine with agreeing that…

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Rather interesting post on X from @ChimeWhistle:

I've just been told by EMR source, that four companies have offered EMR/DfT compliant rolling stock and locomotives, to help with peak periods. There has been very little interest in taking up the offers.

 

[vuzzeho]

Rather interesting post on X from @ChimeWhistle:

How trustworthy is that guy?

I've seen a few of his tweets but I'm never sure whether he's actually trustworthy. Either way, it makes sense that EMR wouldn't be interested.

This Aurora debacle sucks but at the end of the day, EMR isn't going to want to pay a load more money to temporarily lease a fleet if they think these 810 troubles are fleeting and aren't fully crippling, and they have ticketing agreements with other operators.

Obviously I think it would be fun, but for EMR it would be a big expense that they really don't need right now.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

How trustworthy is that guy? I've seen a few of his tweets but I'm never sure whether he's actually trustworthy. Either way, it makes sense that EMR wouldn't be interested. This Aurora debacle sucks but at the end of the day, EMR isn't going to want to pay a load more money to temporarily lease a fleet if they think these 810 troubles are fleeting and aren't fully crippling, and they have ticketing agreements with other operators. Obviously I think it would be fun, but for EMR it would be a big expense that they really don't need right now.

I can’t speak to their trustworthiness, but there are a couple of follow up posts that make that point (not interested due to the expense involved), much to the LHCS enthusiasts disappointment!

 

[43074]

How trustworthy is that guy?

He isn't - heard others refer to it as "Chime Wibble Publishing" before!

 

[DDB]

Surely the very last thing EMR would be interested in is trying to bring yet another fleet into service with all the training and logistics overhead while they are trying to sort the 810s!

 

[Dave61]

Surely the very last thing EMR would be interested in is trying to bring yet another fleet into service with all the training and logistics overhead while they are trying to sort the 810s!

I also doubt there would be much interest, their franchise expires at the end of 2026 and somehow I doubt they would be throwing loads of money this near to the end when instead they can drop the mess in the laps of the Great British Railways to sort out.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I also doubt there would be much interest, their franchise expires at the end of 2026 and somehow I doubt they would be throwing loads of money this near to the end when instead they can drop the mess in the laps of the Great British Railways to sort out.

Which is why Hymes/Hendy should be acting as intermediaries between EMR/Lessor/Scotrail to elay the transfer of anymore 222's for at least a few months to buy them some time to get on top of 810 issues.

 

[Teapot42]

He isn't - heard others refer to it as "Chime Wibble Publishing" before!

While his posts do feel a bit like engagement farming at times, the fact Roger Ford engages with him surely suggests he must have some decent sources?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

they have ticketing agreements with other operators.

I've not checked how practical these are for other stations, but for Chesterfield they are a farce.

The only option is via Tamworth, which is once every two hours at best via XC - hardly going to be easy to get a seat on that - then LNWR from there to Euston. Only half an hour longer if everything is on time, but the majority is on what is essentially a commuter service.

No idea why we couldn't have had Doncaster as an option, as Sheffield has.

 

[800001]

He writes for

He isn't - heard others refer to it as "Chime Wibble Publishing" before!

He writes for RAIL magazine doesn't he? Says it all.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

While his posts do feel a bit like engagement farming at times, the fact Roger Ford engages with him surely suggests he must have some decent sources?

I think they would just repost whatever is told to them, which could be staff or someone making it up.

 

[GWVillager]

How trustworthy is that guy? I've seen a few of his tweets but I'm never sure whether he's actually trustworthy. Either way, it makes sense that EMR wouldn't be interested. This Aurora debacle sucks but at the end of the day, EMR isn't going to want to pay a load more money to temporarily lease a fleet if they think these 810 troubles are fleeting and aren't fully crippling, and they have ticketing agreements with other operators. Obviously I think it would be fun, but for EMR it would be a big expense that they really don't need right now.

The thing is, 15 years ago it wouldn’t have even been a question. An essential service is offered, and must be delivered. People have to be moved about the country, and if it’s an expense or an inconvenience for the operator, then so be it. They have a duty to provide a service!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Which is why Hymes/Hendy should be acting as intermediaries between EMR/Lessor/Scotrail to elay the transfer of anymore 222's for at least a few months to buy them some time to get on top of 810 issues.

Admittedly the Auroras are years late and that is a Hitachi problem but more importantly AIUI EMR have only lost five units totalling 33 vehicles, but most weekdays are getting at least six five car units which is 30 vehicles. So theoretically there are penny numbers of seats lost each weekday. The problem is that Hitachi seem unable to deliver enough 222s on a daily basis to maintain the bridge between outgoing 222s and the heavily delayed incoming 810s

Did Hitachi retain all the Etches Park class 222 maintenance staff it inherited when it took over Etches Park depot

 

[vuzzeho]

The thing is, 15 years ago it wouldn’t have even been a question. An essential service is offered, and must be delivered. People have to be moved about the country, and if it’s an expense or an inconvenience for the operator, then so be it. They have a duty to provide a service!

Well, not to defend them but... they are offering a service. Trains are still running to all destinations, but on a reduced timetable. They could've and possibly should've handled it a bit better, but they are still running their service.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Well, not to defend them but... they are offering a service. Trains are still running to all destinations, but on a reduced timetable. They could've and possibly should've handled it a bit better, but they are still running their service.

Whilst that is true and I agree, have I heard somewhere that EMR have temporarily withdrawn a very important facility, but cannot remember if it was seat reservations or First class.

This is all about Hitachi not meeting it's obligation of simultaneously winding down "it's" Meridians at the same pace as introducing "it's" Auroras. I realised it is a tricky operation to manage two fleets, particularly given the 222s are not Hitacbis, but I suspect they are being paid handsomely and contractually to do this, and have been for some time.

Been searching online for the date that Hitachi took over Etches Park depot, but not been successful, Phillip Sherrat's Modern Railways article is quite useful https://www.modernrailways.com/article/etches-park-gets-fit-future. Bear in mind this was Spring 2023

EMR recognises that the state of the ‘222s’ has not been as good as it should be in recent months. While there has been piecemeal replacement of seat covers, a wider programme has now been agreed to replace the Standard Class seat covers (which are still in East Midlands Trains red) with new ones in grey and to replace the foam in the seats; First Class seats will be cleaned and repaired where appropriate. This work will be carried out by EMR staff during routine exams.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Rather interesting post on X from @ChimeWhistle:

I've just been told by EMR source, that four companies have offered EMR/DfT compliant rolling stock and locomotives, to help with peak periods. There has been very little interest in taking up the offers.

If it's not a case of somebody talking out of where the sun doesn't shine, I'd be interested to know who would happen to have any spare suitable rolling stock at the moment.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If it's not a case of somebody talking out of where the sun doesn't shine, I'd be interested to know who would happen to have any spare suitable rolling stock at the moment.

LSL and the 125 group both have HSTs.
There are 6 221s without a current operator.

WCR also exist but I'm not sure if the HST I've seen on their grounds are theirs or someone else's.

 

[whoosh]

I doubt EMR are going to pay out any extra money to hire in trains from spot hire companies.

Or to pay for extra trains to be leased, or to pay for training staff on them, or pay for overtime to cover people whilst they are released from their normal duties for training on them.

No doubt they are collecting penalty payments from Hitachi, and probably just want to hold on tight and keep collecting until their contract comes to an end and GBR take over. This could be a reason it's taken so long before an emergency timetable has been put in place.
The service is dire, there's been a tragic but unrelated accident, and no amount of money shelled out will improve the public perception of EMR enough in the short time it has left. It's not as though it's a suffering brand that given investment will grow in the long term - it has the clock ticking on it, and isn't worth the outlay.


I doubt DfT want to give any money to EMR to hire in extra trains, spot hire or leased. Politically, swooping in as GBR in a year or two will naturally align with the 810 reliability improvement curve. They hope! "Look how much better the trains are now!"
I'm sure British Rail was run down before privatisation in similar fashion, funnily enough!

 

[The exile]

Whilst that is true and I agree, have I heard somewhere that EMR have temporarily withdrawn a very important facility, but cannot remember if it was seat reservations or First class.

In the circumstances, neither is “a very important facility”.

 

[43096]

LSL and the 125 group both have HSTs.

Which are neither available nor compliant.