Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[Yew]

Covid contracts and compulsory purchase are quite different situations.

With Covid contracts, it's all stuff (as far as I know) that can and does go wrong with other types of contract, it's just that Government organisations were one of the counterparties.
- Did Govt followed mandatory public sector procurement rules ("VIP Lane")
- Were goods/services were delivered at all, and/or met required specifications?
- Was criminal fraud was committed during the failure to deliver what had been agreed, and has this been used to buy a massive yacht?

I didn't mention anything about procurement, many preexisting civil contracts we disrupted due to COVID regulations.

Whilst the Civil Contingencies Act can give those powers to ministers, it only does so when the test of "Emergency" has been met.

The threshold for emergency is much lower than you might think, given the usage under COVID (My bold).

(1)In this Part “emergency” means—

(a)an event or situation which threatens serious damage to human welfare in a place in the United Kingdom,

(b)an event or situation which threatens serious damage to the environment of a place in the United Kingdom, or

(c)war, or terrorism, which threatens serious damage to the security of the United Kingdom.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1)(a) an event or situation threatens damage to human welfare only if it involves, causes or may cause—

(a)loss of human life,

(b)human illness or injury,

(c)homelessness,

(d)damage to property,

(e)disruption of a supply of money, food, water, energy or fuel,

(f)disruption of a system of communication,

(g)disruption of facilities for transport, or

(h)disruption of services relating to health.

Again, this is not to say that the government will, or it is likely, but to point out that there are avenues available which trump a commercial contract.

 

[Clarence Yard]

A “facility for transport” is infrastructure. Rolling stock, such as trains or buses, is not included in that definition so the Act does not apply here.

The way itself, including any bridges and tunnels, the signalling system, any power supply systems, all stations and all depots are covered by that clause in the Act.

Even a humble bus shelter on a road near you is classed as a “facility for transport” under the Act. That’s the “weird” example they give you when you get your training!

 

[Topological]

I didn't mention anything about procurement, many preexisting civil contracts we disrupted due to COVID regulations.





The threshold for emergency is much lower than you might think, given the usage under COVID (My bold).



Again, this is not to say that the government will, or it is likely, but to point out that there are avenues available which trump a commercial contract.

As a matter of interest, what is the relevance of facilities of transport?

Presumably not giving them to Lumo means Lumo suffer disruption to facilities of transport?

It is interesting to see how quickly something can become an emergency though, so thank you for providing that detail.

 

[Teapot42]

Moderator note: Split from

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Looks like the new Hitachi AT300's based on the IET platforn for EMR are going to be called the Class 804. These are going to be bi-mode trains and should be capable of running at up to 140mph, even if 125 is all they see in service. We're looking at 33, 5-car long sets, with 23m long coaches...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there any other suitable stock spare which could be brought in to cover? Any HSTs left that could be reactivated? 67s plus DVTs, or the Mk5 stock displaced from Transpennine? Not an ideal option of course, and not without plenty of issues to consider, but it's looking like the 810s are just too far behind, especially with the loss of 015, for things to be anything other than a disaster.

apart from HSTs most of that is probably unfeasible in terms of stock use on the route without all sorts of feasibility checking.

GWR 5 car Castle Class HSTs as a stop gap? Where have they gone...

I assume the 222s would be less generally tired and unreliable had the 810 order not been so many years delayed initially.

 

[43096]

Any HSTs left that could be reactivated?

No.

67s plus DVTs, or the Mk5 stock displaced from Transpennine?

No. 67s are committed to TfW and Mk 5s to Chiltern.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Is there any other suitable stock spare which could be brought in to cover?

apart from HSTs most of that is probably unfeasible in terms of stock use

This was discussed at length towards the end of last year when it became clear the Lumo 222s would start leaving before the 810s had fully stepped up.
The absolute last thing EMR need at this point is to be messing around with a third traction type.
They will probably just continued to what they've been doing for a year now - muddle through with cancellations and short-forms.

 

[WesternLancer]

This was discussed at length towards the end of last year when it became clear the Lumo 222s would start leaving before the 810s had fully stepped up.
The absolute last thing EMR need at this point is to be messing around with a third traction type.
They will probably just continued to what they've been doing for a year now - muddle through with cancellations and short-forms.

yes, I can indeed imagine - I'm not saying that isn't sensible but that's an approach that the average passenger would see as what suits the provider, not what suits the customer.

If I was a politician in the governing party having just brought it back under govt control I think I'd have other ideas...

 

[Steddenm]

There are a couple of 221s and 180s they could use for the time being - those being the ex-Avanti voyagers and the 180s they've had before.

 

[Teapot42]

As we've now officially moved to speculation, how viable would it be to cut the service south of Leicester to 3 an hour as a temporary measure? How long does it take to rework a timetable, and how much notice would Network Rail and so on need?

While far from ideal, having say the stopper from Sheffield terminating at Leicester and having passengers change to another service would at least allow them to more reliably run things. It's a terrible look, but so would multiple cancellations per day.

 

[yorksrob]

Sadly it's been a fiasco ever since the HST's were prematurely withdrawn for political/ideological reasons. It was foreseen.

 

[Bald Rick]

As we've now officially moved to speculation, how viable would it be to cut the service south of Leicester to 3 an hour as a temporary measure? How long does it take to rework a timetable, and how much notice would Network Rail and so on need?

In theory a change like that could be done in a few days. DfT would need to approve though, and they would be very unlikely to.

 

[jthjth]

Would it be feasible to hire in some additional train sets from elsewhere on the network?

 

[WesternLancer]

Would it be feasible to hire in some additional train sets from elsewhere on the network?

Just swap the 222s off to Scotrail asap and get the scotrail HSTs down on the MML

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Just swap the 222s off to Scotrail asap and get the scotrail HSTs down on the MML

If we're going to talk HSTs, are there any Ex-GWR vehicles about?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just swap the 222s off to Scotrail asap and get the scotrail HSTs down on the MML

Why do you want to replace a fleet which struggles for availability with a fleet that’s even worse for availability and nobody signs?

 

[WesternLancer]

Why do you want to replace a fleet which struggles for availability with a fleet that’s even worse for availability and nobody signs?

Note the winking eye emoji….

But fwiw no problems with HST availability when I spent a week in Scotland travelling on them recently. HST services seemed to be operated as planned. Not that a week is a statistically robust sample.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

If we're going to talk HSTs, are there any Ex-GWR vehicles about?

ScotRail HSTs all have ex GWR first class vehicles.
I’ve not looked where the standard class ScotRail hst carriages were sourced from but many look like they have ex GWR seating, albeit reorganised to provide more tables and a better layout in general than when with GWR.

No doubt threads on this elsewhere on the forum I assume.

 

[2001olib]

Would it be feasible to hire in some additional train sets from elsewhere on the network?

Theres a thread on here about GA having spare 720's. Surely they could be used as far as kettering or wherever the infrastructure allows, where passengers would then change onto the existing IC trains north.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Why do you want to replace a fleet which struggles for availability with a fleet that’s even worse for availability and nobody signs?

From a Scottish perspective you can flip that the other way around!

Recent journeys that should be HST that I’ve taken have been HSTs, and I quite often pass through Inverness station and not noticed units in place of HSTs, have actually seen HSTs step up for units on services to Elgin!

The stop gap for EMR is to for DfT to cut some deal with ScotGov and leave the 222s where they are for the time being.

If the 222s came north now, it would still be late 2028 for full introduction. A lot of training, a lot of teething problems with trains that have seen their reliability go through the floor. A whole lot of upheaval that may well stretch to 2030, beyond if the 222s are delayed.

Time for ScotGov to just bite the bullet and get a multi mode HST replacement ordered! Flirts with power cars at each end and end doors would look the part!

 

[CR165022]

ScotRail HSTs all have ex GWR first class vehicles.
I’ve not looked where the standard class ScotRail hst carriages were sourced from but many look like they have ex GWR seating, albeit reorganised to provide more tables and a better layout in general than when with GWR.

No doubt threads on this elsewhere on the forum I assume.

All of their MK3s came from GWR. The first class ones are only one carriage per set, other 3 or 4 are ex GWR standard class ones

 

[aaronspence]

Why do you want to replace a fleet which struggles for availability with a fleet that’s even worse for availability and nobody signs?

From a frequent user of the HSTs they seem pretty reliable... im dreading the 222's from what I see on this forum about their troubles.

 

[Russel]

From a frequent user of the HSTs they seem pretty reliable... im dreading the 222's from what I see on this forum about their troubles.

To be fair, they were solid and performed well for 20 years until Hitachi and EMR got their hands on them.

 

[WesternLancer]

All of their MK3s came from GWR. The first class ones are only one carriage per set, other 3 or 4 are ex GWR standard class ones

Thought so - thanks

 

[38Cto15E]

This problem isn't getting any better is it?
Get the new Transport Minister to request 2/3 or 4 Azuma 5 cars from LNER and get a couple of 225 sets to replace them on the ECML.
OK I do know it is not that simple but it is not totally unreasonable.

 

[sad1e]

Would it be feasible to hire in some additional train sets from elsewhere on the network?

Ex Chiltern mk3 sets are still available aren't they and can be used as they're sliding door.

EMR should just short term lease those and whack whatever locos they can get at on the front end as I'm pretty sure the ex Chiltern 68s have now been stripped of the capability to work with Mk3's.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ex Chiltern mk3 sets are still available aren't they and can be used as they're sliding door.

EMR should just short term lease those and whack whatever locos they can get at on the front end as I'm pretty sure the ex Chiltern 68s have now been stripped of the capability to work with Mk3's.

The ex Chiltern mk3 sets were withdrawn as life expired and due heavy works.

 

[londonmidland]

The only suitable fleet I can see being used is the spare Class 221s.

Although that still requires full fleet training and route clearing, as well as seeing if they actually move after being stored for so long - so it (probably) won’t happen.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The only suitable fleet I can see being used is the spare Class 221s.

Although that still requires full fleet training and route clearing, as well as seeing if they actually move after being stored for so long - so it (probably) won’t happen.

This is a far more logical suggestion than all the HST / mk3 ideas

 

[Teapot42]

Are there any locos which could haul the 222s? Is 'Thunderbird' style operation in passenger use actually permitted these days?

Maybe an option would be to in effect give up on maintaining the traction aspects of the 222s and just have them hauled, that way availability would be determined elsewhere.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This problem isn't getting any better is it?
Get the new Transport Minister to request 2/3 or 4 Azuma 5 cars from LNER and get a couple of 225 sets to replace them on the ECML.
OK I do know it is not that simple but it is not totally unreasonable.

Heidi Alexander remained in post and hitherto has shown little interest in operators that are still in private hands.